May 11, 2011 3:25 am at 3:25 am #596822
How come someone who always forgives and forgets, does constant chesed to the point of being taken advantage of, keeps quiet when insulted, and is kind to the mean person…. isnt considered a pushover?May 11, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #783402popa_bar_abbaParticipant
It depends if they are a pushover, and really resent it, or if they are actually internalizing the inconvenience and are want to do it anyway.May 11, 2011 3:30 am at 3:30 am #783403
If someone allows another person to take advantage of them, that makes it ok?May 11, 2011 8:39 am at 8:39 am #783405m in IsraelMember
It doesn’t make it ok for the one taking advantage. However it does make a difference to the one on the receiving end. This is true about many inyanim of good middos. For example, it is a aveira d’oraisa to take revenge or bear a grudge. So if someone wrongs you, and you forgive them according to Halacha, that doesn’t mean that what they did was ok. It’s just that we believe Hashem can give everyone what is coming to them — it is not our job to do the accounting.
So I’ll agree with popa — is this person really a pushover, and doing all these things because they can’t stand up for themselves, or is this someone who is strong enough to rise about the pettiness of others and do the right thing anyway? Chazal actually praise in very strong terms “those who are insulted, and don’t insult back, who hear their shame and don’t respond”
Lehavdil one of my favorite quotes from Frances Hodgson Burnett is
“There’s nothing so strong as rage — except for what makes you hold it in.” There is a difference between being a pushover and being someone with strength of character. But in either case it has nothing to do with making the doers actions any more correct.May 11, 2011 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #783406
There is a clear distinction between a Pushover and a Tzadeikes.
Tzadeikes= doing chessed for s/o in need. Period. If the recipient is not a mentch and does not appreciate it, then they are lacking good character. It is not your job to fix their character, but it could be an opportunity to work on yours.
Pushover=doing a favor for s/o who is either capable of doing it themselves or does not really need the favor i.e. it’s a luxury. Not only are you not doing them a favor, but you are helping them perpetuate their selfishness. And you are allowing yourself to be trampled upon. You need to ask yourself why you would even consider doing such a “favor”. Is your “friend” very pushy/demanding? Are you not assertive enough? You can be assertive w/o coming across aggressive if you use tact(right now is not a good time, maybe some other time)A torahdikki Yid is a ben/bas melech. Not a pushover!May 11, 2011 4:11 pm at 4:11 pm #783407gavra_at_workParticipant
They are pushovers.
Someone who is a Tzaddik follows Halacha, slaughters Amaleki babies when the time comes, and doesn’t use “niceness” as an excuse to not do what they should be doing. He does things because Hashem told him/her to do it, not because of some internal “touchy feely” reason.May 11, 2011 4:22 pm at 4:22 pm #783408popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I don’t think it has to do with the person receiving, I think it has to do with the person giving.
I think that if you resent it, and do it anyway, you are a pushover.
If you are ignoring your own needs, you are a pushover.
Even if the person receiving really needs it.May 11, 2011 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #783409
Popa- I beg to defer. Because you resent it doesn,t mean you shouldn’t do it, it means you need to work on yourself. What’s if you resent giving maaser from your hard earned money. Are you patur?
“If you are ignoring your own needs, you are a pushover.”
You don’t have to ignore your needs- you need to redefine your priorities. You need to help another Jew because H-shem wants you to regardless of whether they shower you with gratitude or not.May 11, 2011 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #783410m in IsraelMember
Th OP listed a bunch of character traits
“forgives and forgets,” (possibly a d’oraisa requirement)
“does constant chesed to the point of being taken advantage of,”
“keeps quiet when insulted,” (see above quoted chazal “hanealavim vainom onim. . .”)
“is kind to the mean person….” (numerous Mitzvos requiring kindness that is not dependent on whether the other individual is “mean” or not)
Everyone seems to be responding the the “being taken advantage of” part, but it seems to me that the type of person who has all the other qualities is probably also choosing to do the Chessed because it is the right thing to do. Obviously one must know the appropriate Halachos and guidelines regarding Chessed. (There is even a maximum amount of Tzedakah that one is permitted to give.) But the general description is one that according to Torah hashkafa is proper, nothing to do with “touchy feely”.May 11, 2011 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #783411
i agree with pba. chessed that comes out of the desire to give and an overabundance of love is chessed.
when it is given from a place where person now is strained and/or resentful, i don’t believe it’s chessed. (or at least not highest form) though, i don’t know how ???? ???? ?? ???? would apply here.
often, people do chessed to others on the cheshbon of their family or their own needs.
a true tzaddik is like avraham avinu who was pained when he had no guests or like rav aryeh levine who couldn’t say “no” to anyone because he truly loved everyone, and giving gave him the greatest pleasure.May 11, 2011 6:30 pm at 6:30 pm #783412
“a true tzaddik is like avraham avinu who was pained when he had no guests or like rav aryeh levine who couldn’t say “no” to anyone because he truly loved everyone, and giving gave him the greatest pleasure.”
Surely this was not their natural inborn instincts. They had bechira. They worked on themselves to reach that level. That is our avodah. Mussai ygiu masei limasei avosai. If you feel it will cause burnout and then more worthy recipients will end up losing out, that is a different cheshbon. It sais ki sireh chamor sonachuh rovaitz tachas masao azov tazov imo. Why chamor sonachuh-why not chamor ohavechuh? Because the torah wants us to work on ourselves-to grow.May 11, 2011 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #783413
Also, the reason it says “imo” is to teach you that if the recipient sits back and says that since it’s your mitzvah, do it yourself(an advantage taker), than you do not have to do it. However, it does not say that if he is an ingrate you are absolved from your obligation. There is likely a legitimate reason why he is sonachuh, he may not be Mr. Manners and yet you are commanded to lend a hand.May 11, 2011 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #783414aries2756Participant
A pushover is someone who keeps allowing the same people to step all over them. A tazdeikis is someone who looks the other way when strangers hurt them, or people who they know hurt them unintentionally.May 11, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #783415gavra_at_workParticipant
a true tzaddik is like avraham avinu who was pained when he had no guests or like rav aryeh levine who couldn’t say “no” to anyone because he truly loved everyone, and giving gave him the greatest pleasure.
A true Tzaddik was Avraham Avinu who had to Darshin that he was allowed to go greet the guests in the presence of the Shechina. If he would had Paskined he could not go, he would not have gone, no matter how much it would have “pained” him.
That is a Tzaddik.
Someone who can’t say no, and therefore ignores family and Achrayus, is an Avaryan who gives into their Ta’avos. He is no different than someone who eats a cheeseburger gives into their natural ta’avos.
(Not to say CV that is the case with Tzaddikim, but everything has a cheshbon with a Tzaddik towards Avodas Hashem).May 12, 2011 7:45 am at 7:45 am #783416
my understandingt is that it was his tevah to do so; what made him even greater was to go against his grain and be willing to perform the akeidah, even though that was against his nature. and the trick is to know when to and when not to have rachmanus. for example, even though he didn’t want to, he sent yishmael and hagar out of his house.May 12, 2011 1:29 pm at 1:29 pm #783417
i just heard on a tape, that if one is not sure if they’re doing something for the right reason or for the wrong reason, they should do it anyways, but try to work on themselves for doing it for the right reason. it is the yetzer horah which tells them not to do so.
but, i’ve also seen something else happen. sometimes people try to do chessed for someone else, but it’s really too much for them: meaning, chessed that only they can do for their own family (like supper or laundry) is not done or mother is overly stressed cuz took on added thing which really did not have time for, so starts yelling.
however, if case is when person could really do the chessed but just don’t want to be a pushover, can choose to do it anyways. if they think it’s creating an unhealthy environment for themselves and are really furious about doing it, my own opinion is that maybe they shouldn’t or maybe they can find another more healthy way of helping the other person.
there are many disorders that are caused by the mind/body relationship and repressed rage because trying to do good even when don’t really want to is often the cause.May 12, 2011 1:53 pm at 1:53 pm #783418
do they inconvenience themselves for the sake of helping others all the time or do they know how to say no when they have to.May 12, 2011 9:15 pm at 9:15 pm #783419believerParticipant
If someone is always saying yes to be a tzadeikes yet inside it bothers them then it wont last too long and eventually it wil hurt them..however if someone says yes to helping someone(although they are taken adv of that 1 time..but not constantly) and they feel happy to be able to help that person than its okay to be nice and help out as long as it gives you satisfaction rather than resentment.May 12, 2011 9:49 pm at 9:49 pm #783420
“A pushover is someone who keeps allowing the same people to step all over them. A tazdeikis is someone who looks the other way when strangers hurt them, or people who they know hurt them unintentionally.”
Aries- and the difference is?
Even if inside the person isnt resentfull that the person is using them, how does that not make them a pushover? Pushovers also dont resent when someone uses them.May 13, 2011 2:25 am at 2:25 am #7834212qwertyParticipant
When you feel the person is not giving you too much choice that’s called taking advantage.
But when you chose to help them by yourself you are a tzadeikas.July 7, 2011 7:24 pm at 7:24 pm #783422
middle- brought this thread for you. read the postsJuly 7, 2011 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #783423MiddlePathParticipant
Adorable, that was so nice of you! Thank you! I’m starting to get a better idea of where to draw the line. I’m thinking the following: When helping someone else, if it’s something that truly doesn’t bother me, and I actually enjoy it, there isn’t anything wrong with it. But if I am thinking “This is a waste of my time”, or will be upset about it, I should probably say no. What do you think of this approach?July 7, 2011 7:52 pm at 7:52 pm #783424
I just had a whole fight with a friend of mine about this. She says that I don’t have enough “shtultz” and have to have more self esteem. On the other hand, I feel like there is no reason for me not to do a chesed or something that can be helpful to someone else. I think better say yes if you can
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