Question about sacrifices when Mashiach comes

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  • #1253627

    dooksta123
    Participant

    I know that it’s the Kohanim who are in charge of slaughtering the animals for sacrifices, but are there going to be any jobs for the non-Kohanim in management of these sacrifices? I’m not a Kohen. I know we will all be giving animals for sacrifice, but I’m just planning ahead. I thought I read somewhere that there are other people under the Kohanim, but I’ve been keeping up with the Torah portions and I’m really interested in offerings at the moment.

    Peace-offerings, sin-offerings, thanksgiving-offerings, meal-offerings, burnt-offerings, it’s all really interesting to me. I love how ritualistic giving offerings will be, and I’m just wondering what the hierarchy looks like in management.

    #1253782

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I know that it’s the Kohanim who are in charge of slaughtering the animals for sacrifices, but are there going to be any jobs for the non-Kohanim in management of these sacrifices?

    Many people are under the impression that the firstborns will revert to their original status of Priesthood when the Third Temple is rebuilt. The Brisker Rav zt”l held that this was blasphemous [and contravened the principle of faith that the Torah will never be changed nor will there be another Torah forevermore] and incorrect. Somebody showed me recently a דעת זקנים מבעלי תוס who does say that the firstborns will get the avoidah. (I understand this to be in addition to the Kohanim).

    The Ba’al HaTurim (Yisro) on the Pasuk ואתם תהיו לי ממלכת כהנים וגוי קדוש writes that the original plan was for us ALL to be כהנים גדולים, and we lost that right by the sin of the Golden Calf. But לעתיד לבא this Halachah will be renewed, and all of Klal Yisroel (male*) will be Kohanim Gedolim. I don’t know how literally this is meant to be taken.

    #1253790

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Interesting to note that we davened to day for the Kohanim to return to the Duchan, for the Leviim to return to their singing – no mention was made of anyone else performing any Avoidah.

    The Or Hachaim brings it down in a couple of places (Vayechi 49.28, Bamidbar 3.45, :

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=39995&st=&pgnum=20
    http://beta.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=38295&st=&pgnum=143&hilite=

    I can’t remember where the Daas Zekeinim is.

    See also Moadim V’Zmanim Ch”7, Si’ 169. (Not on Hebrewbooks.org)

    #1253783

    Chortkov
    Participant

    (*Male) – When I wrote that only the males will be Kohanim Gedolim, I said this with reservation.

    There is an enormous Machlokes Rishonim to define the P’sul of אשה in the Avoidas Hamikdash. Some learn that every woman is passul because she is a זרה – the Kedushas Kehunah was given only to the male progeny of Ahron. Others learn that there is a specific p’sul relating only to women, unrelated to that of Zar (non-Kohen). [One major difference being whether a Bas Kohen who does the Avoidah is Chayev Misah]

    If the whole impedition is because she is not a Kohen, then in a time when all non-Kohanim are allowed to perform the Avoidah, women may also be permitted.

    Still, I find it difficult to believe that women will be doing the Avoidah.

    #1253801

    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    “Still, I find it difficult to believe that women will be doing the Avoidah.”

    So do I.

    #1253916

    mw13
    Participant

    yekke2:
    Many people are under the impression that the firstborns will revert to their original status of Priesthood when the Third Temple is rebuilt. The Brisker Rav zt”l held that this was blasphemous [and contravened the principle of faith that the Torah will never be changed nor will there be another Torah forevermore] and incorrect.

    Any idea where that Brisker Rav is brought down? Because as you go on to note, the Ohr HaChaim seemed to have accesses to a Medrash that has since been lost that says the Bechorim will join the Leviim when Moshiach comes. (Although not, it seems, the Kohanim in the actual avodah.)

    (Full disclosure – I am a bechor, so I have an obvious negius here 🙂

    #1253966

    Chortkov
    Participant

    There is a two volume sefer (very small and thin) called מעתיקי שמועה, where they are מלקט various Chiddushim of the Brisker Rav from his Talmidim – from Shailos UTeshuvos, from Sefarim al haShas and other sources. I saw it there.

    The sefer is out of print, so it is quite hard to get hold of. It is very possible I’ll have access over Shabbos, so I will try look for the original source.

    #1253981

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I have seen brought down that the source of the Or HaChaim is this:

    כל מקום שנאמר לי אינו זז לעולם לא בעולם הזה ולא לעולם הבא..בבכורות כתיב “כי לי כל בכור” –
    ויקרא רבה ב ב

    #1253991

    Chortkov
    Participant

    A quick google search turned this up:

    ס’ “אוצרות רבותינו מבריסק” ע’ ס”ג

    #1253998

    Chortkov
    Participant

    R’ Yonasan Eiberchitz writes an interesting compromise in the Haftorah to Emor:

    ולכן יהיה כהנים בני צדוק כה”ג והבכורים כהנים הדיוטים וא”ש.

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=22483&st=&pgnum=91

    #1254393

    kj chusid
    Participant

    Every day in karbanos we say “כהנים בעבודתם לויים בדוכנם וישראל במעמדם״ referring to the yidden that fasted Monday-thursday and watched the avoida in the beis hamikdesh. So everyone has a chance to do something

    #1257921

    dooksta123
    Participant

    I’m not yet as Torah-learned as you all. In fact, this is the first year I’m actually following along with the Parshas! 🙂 So I would appreciate if you could translate your terms. 😛

    #1257931

    Lightbrite
    Participant

    Is a first born man who was born through a cesarean section and/or to a mother who had a previous miscarriage still considered a first born in this case, if it is something regulated to first borns?

    #1257999

    Chortkov
    Participant

    dooksta123: Sorry. If you point to any specific post you want translated, I’ll do my best.

    #1258162

    dooksta123
    Participant

    Avoidah
    Daas Zekeinim
    Machlokes Rishonim
    P’sul of אשה
    זרה – the Kedushas Kehunah
    Chayev Misah
    Chiddushim

    כל מקום שנאמר לי אינו זז לעולם לא בעולם הזה ולא לעולם הבא..בבכורות כתיב “כי לי כל בכור” –
    ויקרא רבה ב ב

    ס’ “אוצרות רבותינו מבריסק” ע’ ס”ג

    ולכן יהיה כהנים בני צדוק כה”ג והבכורים כהנים הדיוטים וא”ש.

    כהנים בעבודתם לויים בדוכנם וישראל במעמדם״

    Thank you so much. I’m really new to studying Torah with actual purpose.

    #1258191

    lesschumras
    Participant

    Going back to the sacrificial system is not so simple. Keep in mind that, for the most part, Temple Judaism and Rabbinic Judaism were substantially different and had very little overlap. Temple Judaism ( TJ) was centralized in Jerusalem in general and the Bais Hamikdosh in particular. There were no shuls, until the very end, and other than the Monday Thursday laining established by Ezra, and the Shma no prayer services until the end. The shmone esreh was formulated late in the Temple period. So, if we return to TJ, shouldn’t that entail going back to TJ in all its forms?

    #1258220

    Chortkov
    Participant

    כל מקום שנאמר לי אינו זז לעולם לא בעולם הזה ולא לעולם הבא..בבכורות כתיב “כי לי כל בכור” –
    ויקרא רבה ב ב

    Any place where the word “לי” – Lit, “to Me” – is used, it will be everlasting and will not cease ever, not in this world or the World to Come. [Example:] In regards to Firstborns, it says לי. (Misrash Rabbah, Leviticus 2.2)

    ס’ “אוצרות רבותינו מבריסק” ע’ ס”ג – This is the name of a book, and the page number – 63.

    ולכן יהיה כהנים בני צדוק כה”ג והבכורים כהנים הדיוטים וא”ש. – The Kohanim (descendants of Tzadok) will be High Priests, and Bechorim (firstborns) will be the regular Priests.

    If you require more explanation to anything above, I’d be happy to simplify it to the best of my capacity.

    Hatzlachah Rabba! (Much Success!)

    #1258219

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Avoidah – Literally ‘service’. This is how we refer to the service of the Cohanittes and Levittes in the the Beis HaMikdash/Temple.

    Daas Zekeinim – A medieval commentary on the Torah written by “Ba’alei Tosefos”

    Machlokes Rishonim – A matter which is subject to debate by early commentators and halachic authorities.

    זרה: Lit. Stranger (feminine). Any person who is not from the progeny of Ahron HaKohen is considered a זר or זרה, and therefore may not perform the Temple Service. Those who are from the progeny of Ahron HaKohen have “Kedushas Kehunah” – a certain spiritual status which Kohanim have.

    em>P’sul of אשה – “Psul” means disqualification, and “אשה” is a woman. The Talmud writes that a woman is disqualified from Temple Service. The subject of debate was to classify the disqualification: Are women simply excluded from Kedushas Kehunah – the required spiritual status necessary to perform Temple Service? Or do they have this required status (as may be evident from the fact that female Kohanim may eat certain foods which are exclusively reserved for Kohanim), but there is a non-related independent law in Temple Service requiring male service.

    Chayev Misah – Deserving of the Death Sentence. Transgressing certain biblical prohibitions are liable to death penalty (in times when the Jewish Court of Law is governing; not applicable today).

    Chiddushim – Novel Torah thoughts.

    #1258274

    smerel
    Participant

    <i>There is a two volume sefer (very small and thin) called מעתיקי שמועה, where they are מלקט various Chiddushim of the Brisker Rav from his Talmidim – from Shailos UTeshuvos, from Sefarim al haShas and other sources. I saw it there.</i>

    These type of seforim are extremely unreliable. I’ve seen in one of those type of Seforim that BR held there is no chiyuv to put on tefilin on a daily basis anymore. The Am Hartzus of that shtickel “Torah” was so mind boggling that I showed it Rav Reuvain Fein ztz’l for clarification. He answered that there is nothing to clarify.Some Talmid misunderstood the Brisker Rav and wrote it down. He added that he has seen “Pi Hasmuah” Brisker “Torah” that contradicts an explicit Misnah on that very topic.

    What would the Brisker Rov do with the shito of “Mitzvas Betales L’Osid Lovo” Is that also heresy?

    #1258279

    Health
    Participant

    MW13 -“I am a bechor, so I have an obvious negius here”

    So am I. But we’ll see what will be, I’m not scared!

    #1258310

    Chortkov
    Participant

    RE Tefillah after the Redemtion:

    From the Mabi”t (Kiryas Sefer) in Beis Elokim:

    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14113&st=&pgnum=286

    #1258318

    Chortkov
    Participant

    What would the Brisker Rov do with the shito of “Mitzvas Betales L’Osid Lovo” Is that also heresy?

    To think that the Torah will change is heresy. To find a reason why in accordance to the Torah we have now things will manifest differently is okay. As long as you can source it in the Torah which was transmitted at Sinai, it can be true.

    In your above example, מצוות בטילות לעתיד לבא, I think the Ritv”a explains that it is not referring a specific time when Mitzvos will no longer be applicable, but is referring to a situation. The Gemara darshens כיון שמת נעשה חפשי מן המצוות – Dead people are not obligated in commandments. The Ritva understands this to mean that even after תחיית המתים – the Resurrection of the Dead – those who have been through death will not be obligated in the Mitzvos.

    This is not because the Torah will change. If today somebody would be resurrected (as there have been stories recorded in Tanach, Shas), he would equally be exempt from Mitzvos.

    EDIT: See R’ Elchonon Wasserman in Kovetz Shiurim Ch. 2, Siman 29

    #1258341

    Chortkov
    Participant

    These type of seforim are extremely unreliable. I’ve seen in one of those type of Seforim that BR held there is no chiyuv to put on tefilin on a daily basis anymore.

    This sefer is a collection of other printed seforim – obviously, some more reliable than others. You have to know the sefer he brings down and make sure it is reliable.

    The example you mention here is also not as clear-cut as you’re making it out to be. What you [probably?] saw wasn’t a halachic psak that it is not necessary to wear tefillin. What it probably did say was something very different. Let me try guess.

    There are seforim which discuss whether Tefillin is daily obligation, like Shema, or whether it is a chiyuv which is not necessarily timed daily. If someone missed a day of tefillin, was he mevatel an assei min haTorah? I have never seen the Brisker Rav’s position on the subject, but I can imagine him saying that Tefillin isn’t a daily chiyuv – which is, I think, the position of most Rishonim.

    We do find that the ikker chiyuv of Tefillin is all day every day – not daily, but constant. Due to us not having a גוף נקי, we don’t wear it all the time. “The once a day” isn’t necessarily a daily chiyuv.

    [I have never seen a source in Rishonim for a DAILY obligation to wear Tefillin. I’d be very grateful for someone to show me one.]

    I can’t defend something I haven’t seen, and I certainly have found quotes from the Brisker Rav that are incorrect (On more than one occasion, I have found מפי שמועה the same diyuk in the same Rashi, with totally contradictory conclusions.)

    Where is this quote from?

    #1258375

    smerel
    Participant

    I have never seen the Brisker Rav’s position on the subject, but I can imagine him saying that Tefillin isn’t a daily chiyuv – which is, I think, the position of most Rishonim.

    You are pretty much correct in your guess in general. (see below)I have no seform because I’m at work (self employed this isn’t on my bosses chesbon) but the Mishna Brura very clearly says there is a chiyuv to put on tefilin every day. I think the Mogen Avrom gives tefilin as an example of a mitzvah that has to be done daily.

    Which rishonim explicitly say it isn’t a daiy chiyuv and where?

    The quote I refer to is from a likut sefer that I haven’t seen in over twenty year quoting a Brisker Hagadah.(brown cover I don’t remember the name

    Rav Moshe Sternbuch writes that he heard the BR held there is a chiyuv to wear tefilin every day but it isn’t a NEW chiyuv every day. It is a constant chiyuv that you are yotze by wearing them once a day.

    #1258380

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Didn’t read all the comments. Just want to point out something in the OP. Slaughtering the sacrifices is actually one avoda that can be done by a non Kohen. The requirement of Kohen on animal sacrifices (with a few exceptions, including Avodas Yom Kippur, Parah Aduma -which isn’t really an avoda) only begins at the next stage. Shechita kesheira b’zar; mikabala v’eilach mitzvas kehuna.

    #1258417

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Very true, Midwesterner. I missed that.

    Although you are correct that Shechitah [slaughtering] is permitted by a non-Kohen, and the Gemara explicitly writes (Zevachim 32a) that it is לכתחילה, there are those who say that ideally, a Kohen or Levi should do it.

    The source I remember offhand for this is the Ya’avetz in Lechem Shamayim on Kiddushin Perek Daled. I vaguely remember seeing more about this, but can’t remember now. A Rosh at the beginning of Chullin, perhaps?

    #1258442

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Tosfos in Menachos 35b brings a machlokes whether one must lay tefillin daily or not.

    Pri Megadim is mistapek about it here. http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=41247&st=&pgnum=61

    I believe I saw a write up about this in Minchas Osher (don’t remember where).

    #1258468

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Mods – Please allow this link. It is a PDF copy of Minchas Osher.

    #1258465

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I did a little looking around, and it seems that many Rishonim do hold it is a daily chiyuv min haTorah:

    1) Rabbeinu Yonah in Iggeres Teshuva Ois 24 writes that one who doesn’t wear tefillin has close to 300 עונשים yearly.*

    2) Smag (Asei #3) and Shibolei HaLeket Inyan Tefillin are clear that the Gemara (Menachos 44) which says that he who doesn’t fulfill the obligation of tefillin is oiver 8 miztvos refers to daily. (He proceeds to say some very interesting things about tefillin being beikar for reshaim, not tzaddikim… See also Maharik 174). — Courtesy of Google and קובץ בית אהרון וישראל, ר’ יעקב הכהן שבדרון*

    3) Ritv”a Shabbos 49 – Chiyuv is Min HaTorah B’shas Krias Shema (Which is very interesting)

    The Brisker Rav is brought by Reb Moshe Shternbuch תשובות והנהגות ח”א סי’ מ”ט, ח”ב סי’ ל, ח”ג סי” י”א.

    * It is not muchach that these Rishonim contradict the Brisker Rav. It could be that although the chiyuv is not a new one every day, one who doesn’t wear them ever is punished for every day, like the Rambam writes by Milah.

    #1258606

    Chortkov
    Participant

    Lightbrite: Is a first born man who was born through a cesarean section and/or to a mother who had a previous miscarriage still considered a first born in this case, if it is something regulated to first borns?

    Sorry, I just saw your question now. Interesting question. I haven’t seen anything on the subject of which firstborns will do the Avoidah.

    If the source to the idea that the avoidah will return to firstborns is the Midrash כי לי כל בכור, then we are exclusively talking about פטר רחם, which refers to a firstborn who opened the womb of his mother. Born through a c-section, or after a miscarriage (in most cases) is not considered a firstborn for Pidyon HaBen, and it probably has the same Halachos.

    I don’t think it’s much of a proof, but in Hilchos Bircas Kohanim, the Leviim must wash the hands of the Kohanim prior to the blessing, and if there are no Leviim present the Bechorim will wash instead. And there the Poskim explicitly state that only a Bechoir Peter Rechem (Min HaEm, not Min HaAv) can do it. See Magen Avraham here. I wonder if this is connected at all.

    #1258718

    midwesterner
    Participant

    Yekke: Don’t have a gemara Zevachim with me right to check what you’re referring to, but there is an expression used several times that says Kohanim nohagu silsul b’atzmam, meaning that they took it as a personal affront if a zar would grab their opportunity. But that is not halacha, just a group of people guarding their turf, so to speak.

    #1258754

    Chortkov
    Participant

    The Yaavetz is pretty clear that it isn’t just an issue of pride or rights, but it’s a halachic advantage. There is a mefurashe Tosfos about it somewhere, but I cant remember where…

    #1258806

    mw13
    Participant

    dooksta123:
    I’ve been keeping up with the Torah portions and I’m really interested in offerings at the moment… this is the first year I’m actually following along with the Parshas

    Good for you! Unfortunately there aren’t too many people who really go through these parshios about korbanos thoroughly. Feel free to keep crowdsourcing here, but always remember that not all information obtained on anonymous internet forums is always “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”…

    Some excellent English resources that go through these parshios include the Artscroll Stone Chumash (and particularly the notes on the bottom) and R’ Shamshon Raphael Hirsch’s commentary on Chumash.

    Best of luck, and hope to hear more from you!

    #1258851

    assurnet
    Participant

    Other than korbanot there is a lot more that is going to change when mashiach comes – tumah and tahara issues for example. I came up with a great business idea a few years ago for when tzarat on houses could be an issue again. Basically it’s a combination of short term storage and renovations and they move your entire apartment into storage before the cohen comes to check out the place. If he declares it tamei then an expert team can do a rush job of knocking out the tzarat part of the walls and cementing/plastering new sections in. Also can find cheap local hotels. Basically instead of you having to coordinate all the pertinent issues it’s a one stop shop that does it all for you.

    #1258934

    Chortkov
    Participant

    I wonder how the property market is going to react to Yoivel.

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