Question about Tznius

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  • #604557

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    It seems generally accepted that it is not tznius for a woman to appear barefoot in front of men that are neither her spouse or husband.

    Is a woman who is wearing tights/stockings allowed to be shoeless in front of men?

    Is this an issue of halacha or hashkafa/community standards?

    #911886

    Sam2
    Participant

    It’s not explicitly mentioned in Halachah so it’s solely a communal issue.

    #911888

    oomis
    Participant

    Since we only potentially appear shoeless with stockings when we are sitting shiva, I don’t recommend it.

    #911889

    shtiky shlo
    Member

    totally pritzuss never look at a woman in tights/stockings without shoes

    #911890

    WIY
    Member

    Ask your LOR or email a reliable Rabbi online.

    #911891

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    “totally pritzuss never look at a woman in tights/stockings without shoes”

    Are you being sarcastic?

    If this is a communal issue are there certain communities/sects that hold this way? Like certain Chasidic groups? Do women who hold this way do so because of personal preference or because a rav told them?

    #911892

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    It seems generally accepted that it is not tznius for a woman to appear barefoot in front of men that are neither her spouse or husband.

    Your premise may not be correct. Or rather, it may only be correct in certain communities, in which case any answers that follow would also only apply to those communities.

    The Wolf

    #911893

    apushatayid
    Participant

    The bachurim must be bored the last few days before the new zman.

    #911894

    oomis
    Participant

    Yep.

    #911895

    menucha12
    Member

    it actually is hashkafic I had to ask a shaila about it lately

    I live with a community in which it is accepted for frum women to wear socks

    but two weeks ago my family took a vacation to greece to a place where there was no frum community at all period

    I really hate wearing sock in the summer and prefer to walk around in flip flops

    I called 4 rabbis and the first 3 said they couldnt answer it correctly as it was purely hashkafic and up to me

    the 4th said it was a problem of lowering my standards and I should play it by ear

    in short go by your kehila

    but at the end of the day it really boils down to you

    tznius is an inside job

    #911896

    nishtdayngesheft
    Participant

    “Your premise may not be correct. Or rather, it may only be correct in certain communities, in which case any answers that follow would also only apply to those communities.”

    Often Rashi says “makshin Ha’olam”, the world asks. Remember how your rebbi explained this?

    That applies here as well.

    #911897

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    I find some of the notions of minhag hamakom and following what the kehilla does confusing. To me, it seems that if a woman asks a shaila and her Rav says that it is halachically permisable to wear flip flops or even be barefoot than she can, and it doesn’t matter where she is and if people don’t like it then it is their problem. Likewise if she asks a shaila and is told she can’t then she shouldn’t no matter where she is.

    #911898

    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    Often Rashi says “makshin Ha’olam”, the world asks. Remember how your rebbi explained this?

    That applies here as well.

    I don’t remember. Please elucidate.

    The Wolf

    #911899

    Sam2
    Participant

    Reu: The issue is that the Halachah states that what is Muttar or Assur in this case is determined by what is normally done by the women there (this Pashtus includes both Jews and Goyim).

    #911900

    oomis
    Participant

    I always wear sleeves that cover my elbows. But when I go to neighborhoods where women cover the entire arm to the wrist, I dress that way, too so as to a) not stick out like a sore thumb and b) show some derech eretz for the people who live there. It’s a no-brainer to me. If I would really be uncomfortable to dress more like the people in that place, then I would avoid going there.

    #911901

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    so it’s solely a communal issue

    can’t believe i didn’t catch that… snort :p

    #911902

    yehudayona
    Participant

    “men that are neither her spouse or husband”

    So her spouse and her husband are different people?

    #911903

    ReuBrew
    Participant

    “men that are neither her spouse or husband”

    So her spouse and her husband are different people?

    I meant to type spouse or close blood relative.

    #911904

    Sam2
    Participant

    Yehudayona: I just noticed that today as well.

    Yitay: Honestly, no pun was intended.

    #911905

    Feif Un
    Participant

    oomis: What if you were in a community where women only covered to the tops of their elbows? I’ve been in a shul where I saw the wife of the Rav wearing sleeves that only went to the tops of her elbows, with most of the elbow uncovered. Oh, and the Rav is a very widely known and respected Rav. If I posted his name here, probably 90% of the posters would know who he is.

    #911906

    vochindik
    Member

    Feif: That doesn’t legitimize how she dressed.

    Oh, and I’ve noticed you habitually follow up many of your controversial comments claiming some anonymous rabbi who you claim is famous does whatever you are advocating.

    #911908

    oomis
    Participant

    Feif, I would wear sleeves to cover the elbow. I wouldn’t at this point in my life do LESS than I normally do, but in a community where everyone dressed even MORE covered up, so would I, or not go there at all. The point is to act with derech eretz and not be “in their face” when we possibly dress a little more relaxed than they do.

    Some people (such as the rebbetzin you mention) btw, do feel that the top or middle of the elbow is the cut off point. I used to dress that way, but over the years adopted slightly longer coverage. I don’t view it as being more or less tzniusdik than others, it’s just how I have evolved over time.

    #911909

    Feif Un
    Participant

    vochindik, I tried to post the name of the Rav, but the mods wouldn’t allow it.

    #911910

    Sam2
    Participant

    Vochindik: There is a very well-known Mara D’asra of a large community that holds that women are allowed to show up to a Tefach above the elbow. Maybe this is what Feif is referring to.

    #911911

    YeshivaRodefKesef
    Participant

    OSUR! Yiharog V’al Yaavor.

    Why would a woman be in front of a man who is not her husband? Women should not be in public at all.

    kol kvuda bas melech pnima.

    #911912

    oomis
    Participant

    Yiharog V’al Yaavor.”

    Uh… that would be “yeihareig v’al yaavor.” (pet peeve of mine when this is misquoted – sorry).

    Your way means, he should kill, but not transgress(that is kind of an oxymoron, since one of the yeihareig v’al yaavors IS murder).

    The other way means, one should BE killed rather than transgress. Crucial difference.

    #911913

    vochindik
    Member

    Sam: EDITED is a famous mara d’asra of a large community. I’m sure you didn’t mean him, and you’ll even say someone to the right of him, yet without knowing who, it may as well as be him.

    Please do not name names. You are begging for loshon hara.

    #911914

    WIY
    Member

    Sam2

    Why cant you say his name?

    #911915

    Feif Un
    Participant

    Sam2: There’s a good chance it is. Like I said, I tried to post the name, but the mods wouldn’t allow it.

    #911917

    Sam2
    Participant

    WIY: I’m sure the mods wouldn’t allow it, even though this is a well-known opinion. I could say his name, but there’s no reason for it. If you ask around I’m sure someone would tell you.

    #911918

    iced
    Member

    Not every rabbi’s opinion is defensible.

    #911919

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: This opinion is defensible, even though it’s a Da’as Yachid. I would never advocate following it, but his community has every right to.

    #911920

    iced
    Member

    This opinion is indefensible.

    #911921

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: Because you are such a Baki in Halacha to be able to say that? You know all of Shas and Poskim to say that that Psak has nothing to rely on whatsoever? It’s how he learns the Sugya and it’s a fair reading of several Rishonim.

    #911922

    iced
    Member

    So you’re the baki, I take it, to find it defendible?

    #911923

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: It takes a lot less Bekiyus to know that a Makor exists than to know that one doesn’t.

    #911924

    iced
    Member

    And yet you still cannot produce a coherent defense for it.

    #911925

    Sam2
    Participant

    The Pashut Lashon of the Shuchan Aruch is defense enough.

    #911926

    iced
    Member

    No it isn’t a defense at all.

    #911927

    Sam2
    Participant

    Iced: Care to explain how when the Shulchan Aruch says “Tefach” he doesn’t really mean a Tefach?

    #911928

    iced
    Member
    #911929

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    The conversation:

    Sam: But reason A, B, C!

    Iced: You Kofer!

    Sam: But what about the Svaros?

    Iced: You Kofer!

    Not much of a conversation.

    #911930

    interjection
    Participant

    What is the lashon of the Shulchan Aruch? Or at least the siman/si’ef

    #911931

    Sam2
    Participant

    Interjection: 75:1. The problem with the position is that none of the Poskim read it Kipshuto. Saying that a Tefach above the elbow is allowed is a complete Da’as Yachid opinion.

    Iced: You, once again, miss the point. I did not say that the position was right. It did not say that it wasn’t against everyone else. I did call it a Da’as Yachid. However, the position does have a legitimate Makor in Halachah. Quoting other, majority, more legitimate opinions does not make this one less legitimate. It means that others cannot follow is L’ma’aseh, but it also means that a Rav who is a Bar Hachi of having a position has a right to say it. I think the Shulchan Aruch proves that point fairly well. You proved that we don’t hold like that position. That’s fine. I wasn’t arguing that. Your claim was that the position is indefensible. I defended it.

    #911932

    iced
    Member

    “none of the Poskim read it Kipshuto.”

    Aha! There’s the answer in your own words! All the poskim say something and them some yodle comes along the highway and matirs what is assur, “against everyone else” as you so elequently put it?

    See, after thinking about it a little bit you figured out the answer yourself! 🙂

    #911933

    Feif Un
    Participant

    iced: Please don’t use Oz Vehadar Levusha as a source. As we discussed here not too long ago, many Rabbonim do not approve of that book.

    #911934

    Feif Un
    Participant

    iced: It’s not some yodle. R’ Teitz is one of the biggest Rabbonim in America today, and is widely respected by other Rabbonim.

    #911935

    iced
    Member

    I’m sorry that you don’t “approve” of Rav Shlomo Zalman and Rav Elyashev.

    #911936

    interjection
    Participant

    “some yodle comes along the highway and matirs what is assur”

    Is that how it is? He matirs what is assur? Maybe they aasur that which is muttar.

    #911937

    bubka
    Participant

    Feif Un,

    He is a LWMO rabbi.

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