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I recently saw the following three stories:
I never had an issue with anyone learning… But this year changed me… My daughter fought like a lion for a year, was exposed to everything, just to be called up to reserve duty when she was finished with her service, in order to guard and feed the Nakba terrorists in jail, because they have a shortage of soldiers. That made me snap… I actually told her for the first time to say no and they should go and get charedim or people who made excuses to get out of the army to do it. It makes me sad that subconsciously now I am so angry with these boys sitting in Yeshiva especially when I see them on a break. I am not happy or proud of those feelings I’m actually so sad I am so angry.
Here’s another,:
My daughter and son-in-law made aliyah a few years ago. She has two small children and struggled with a difficult pregnancy while her husband was in reserve duty this year. He was now called back again, to the north, and she spent the night crying to me. If there were more soldiers available, maybe he wouldn’t have had to be called back.
And here’s another:
My (religious) brother-in-law, with five children, is on his third time in reserve duty this year. Only half his unit returned, because the guys are losing their businesses and their wives are alone. The unit does not have enough soldiers and the ones they have are exhausted.
My question is- Obviously, joining them in service would be the best way to ease their burden, but if that isn’t possible, what should the Charedim be doing to ease the burden of our soldiers and their families?
you seem to completly misunderstand that judaism does not support the zionist military enterpise.
with the obvious exceptionn of divergents like Kook, mainstream Torah Jews do not go to the IDF because it is forbidden.
we don’t make calculations, exceptions, or excuses. We have gedolim who have been clears as day that it is better to leave eretz yisroel than join the kofrim in their sins.
Simcha,
How long do you think it takes to train people that “sit and learn” to fight in a war?
I think it takes months (especially if they’re not physically fit or even if they are, physically active)
Do you believe in Gemara ? Especially when it says תלמידי חכמים מרבה שלום בעולם?
The Chareidim for years have failed to offer any alternatives through which they would establish and control the terms under which their bochurim would participate in defense and national security efforts in any form (other than behind a shtender). It is simply not possible for the fastest growing segment of the population forego participation in the defense of the country.
Why dont you ask that question about the Arabs?
It’s the same thing!The reason Charedim don’t join the army has NOTHING to do with learning. Even those who are NOT learning do NOT join the IDF.
It is because they do NOT support the state of Israel. Period. Just like the Arabs.
The learning is an excuse. Everyone knows that.Not everyone jewish (even those who live in israel!), need to support the zionist military.
They believe the jews would be better off without zionist harassment and antagonism.
Having said that, I do feel pain for your zionist family members who are suffering. It really breaks my heart that so many people in that region are suffering so much.
I always love these types of questions. Obviously every בר בי רב לחד יומא understands that there’s a חיוב גמור על פי דין for every able-bodied Jew to fight in today’s war, “ben yeshiva” or otherwise. זו אין צריך לפנים. But it’s funny when people like the original poster sit back in their armchair with their leg on their knee asking what the “chareidim” should be doing. You’re just as מחוייב as they are. Even if you live in America. So stop being a hypocrite and asking how other people can be more meticulous in halachah and go join the army yourself. The חיוב stops at age 60. It drives me wild when people in America complain about the “chareidim” in Israel. Mind your own business and start keeping halacha yourself. Are you currently enlisted in the IDF? If not, keep quiet. The “chareidim” are obviously remiss in their halachic obligation, but they are at least contributing to some extent by learning Torah and becoming תלמידי חכמים instead of hanging out in the yeshiva world coffee room.
1. If they are “real” Chareidim (e.g. Satmar, Neturei Karta) who hold that Torah prohibits establishing a secular nominally-Jewish state, then they are conscientious objectors. Such persons routinely minimize accepting benefits from the medinah (and refuse funding from zionist entities including the Israeli government). There are no good reasons for the medinah to conscript such persons, and probably should treat them as Arabs (i.e. Palestinian Jews) with no more rights, or disabilities that Palestinian Muslims who refuse to serve in the IDF. Such persons should be exempt regardless of whether they are learning full time or not. It should be noted that most western democracies have traditionally exempted conscientious objectors to military service, and arresting conscientious objectors would be a public relations nightmare for the medinah.
2. For individuals who accept the legality under Jewish law of the current Medinah, the only real issue the IDF’s accommodation of religious practices (or lack thereof). This could be addressed and to a certain extent is (e.g. in special units and Hesder yeshivos). For Zionists who believe that their learning is more important than playing soldier, accommodation can be done through Hesder programs or even arranging part time service or work in alternative services such as defense factories (and noting that the Israeli government considers a yeshiva student learning 20 hours a week to be full time, so many exempt students can do some gainful employment).
3. The government could tie support for yeshiva students to military service, if they similarly tied support for university students to military service, and also tied state benefits to military service. However this would alienate many non-hareidim (secular left wingers as well as Arabs) who don’t serve in the army (and according to government statistics, they outnumber hareidim who refuse military service.
Simcha:
1. Your daughter should not be in the army even if you believe everyone should serve. As you are well aware, the prohibition against women enlisting in the military is Yehareig V’al Yaavor.
2. Are you angry with soldiers on leave/break or you’re only angry at Yeshiva bochorim and Kollel yungerleit on break?
3. Why haven’t you yet written a similar diatribe against the non-Chareidim who do not share the burden of supporting Klal Yisroel by being in Yeshiva learning Torah, thus providing us out greatest protection? There are so many more Israeli non-Chareidim who fail to share the burden of Limud Torah than there are Chareidim in Israel who are exempt from the army. Yet your silence is deafening in your failure to protest against those who fail to engage in such Limud Torah. The numbers Missing In Action from Limud Torah is far greater. While the Israeli army isn’t losing battles or wars due to a non-existent shortage of soldiers, that they’d claim with more Chareidi soldiers they’d do win more battles fighting the Arabs.
I think it’s really cool that the learning going on in all of the yeshivos is able to protect the country from the munitions of the bloodthirsty enemy, but the learning going on in yeshivos is unable to protect them from a policy change by an AG in response to a court decision.
Isn’t that fascinating?
“We have gedolim who have been clears as day that it is better to leave eretz yisroel than join the kofrim in their sins:
Simple and clear as day message to those who refuse to serve and their “gedolim”: עזוב בשלום ואל תחזור
@somejewiknow You seem to misunderstand that Judaism has no more of an opinion on the “Zionist military enterprise” than it does on the effectiveness of the Yankees bullpen, the way to prepare yapchik, or the last scene in the Sopranos.
You also seem not to grasp that “divergents like Kook” knew more Bavli, Yerushalmi, Tosefta, Sifra, Sifrei, Mechilta, Midrishei Tanoim, Rishoinim, Rambam, Tur, Shulchan Aruch, Reb Akiva Eiger, Ktzois, Nesivos, Zohar, and Tikkunim, than you or anyone you know will learn in a lifetime. There’s a reason why Reb Elyashiv asked him to be misader kidushin at his own wedding, and there’s a reason why the Chazon Ish stood throughout his entire lengthy speech at the groundbreaking ceremony for Novardok in Bnei Brak. You’re an am ha’aretz כמו שכתוב, partly because of your upbringing, and partly because of your bad choices. Get a life, pick up a gemara, (you should start with soncino or artscroll), and start learning.
@gadolhadorah The “chareidim” about whom you worry so much, have no more of an obligation to fight in a מלחמת מצוה than you do. If you aren’t currently fighting for the IDF, why don’t you feel hypocritical asking them to? At least they learn Torah. Do you?If I remember correctly, many Chareidim have served as MKs
(Members of Knesset) and there were even times when
Chareidim were members of Israel’s ruling coalition.So Chareidim cannot do anything to help the national defense,
because they do not agree that the state should exist,
but they become Members of Knesset,
and they even become members of Israel’s ruling coalition.simcha613:
The same question could have been asked by parents who wanted to know why other parents didn’t feed their children to the molech idol when that idol was in vogue. Regardless, may Hashem please keep your children and all His children safe and well.You also left out the context here that the chareidim are the native Jews of Ottoman-controlled Palestine while the Zionist interlopers chose to invade and fight the British to get them to leave so that they could pretend to have sovereignty and their forever wars as all the gedolim said would happen. The Zionists chose this fight – and against the wishes of the chareidim living there at the time the Zionists invaded – so, the Zionists can send their idolaters to that fight.
Finally, you left out that joining the Zionist army means converting from Judaism to Zionism and being compelled to violate one or more of the gimmel chamuros for which one must give up one’s life rather than violate.
some > We have gedolim who have been clears as day that it is better to leave eretz yisroel than join the kofrim in their sins.
Many of us are not in Israel and are not serving. But if you live in Israel, you are benefiting from the protection of the army. A simple logic is that one owes something for protection. We can argue halochos that some students might be exempt – if you accept that you are part of the community. You apparently don’t. So, then you should move either out or to other parts of “eretz isroel”. Just make sure that you will not be drafted into PA, Syrian or Jordanian armies.
Shaszeri > but they are at least contributing to some extent by learning Torah and becoming תלמידי חכמים
I am more worrying about quality of Torah Learning than of lack of soldiers in Tzahal. If students are subjected to distortions of Torah for political reasons – on either side of all these complex issues – then it is not a real Torah they are learning. This “learning” might solve the social role keeping a community observant of many of the mitzvos, but I don’t think it is a learning that keeps integrity of Torah. So, people end up spending their lives at a shtender and miss the mark. We see it here sometimes with posters being rude, obnoxious, ignorant, and dismissive of truth, while at the same time being “learned” in gemora and poskim.
unommin> learning going on in yeshivos is unable to protect them from a policy change by an AG in response to a court decision.
a good question. maybe because there is a mefurash gemoro in bava basra that says that Talmidei Chachamim will be protected from bandits and foreign governments, but there is no gemora (as far as I know) protecting from a duly elected knesses yisroel and their shotrim. So, Hashem is not able to help them in the absence of a clear gemoro.
“judaism does not support the zionist military enterpise.”
Zionism is central to Judaism. And without the “zionist military enterprise” there would be another Shoah and Judaism would cease to exist in Israel.
“being in Yeshiva learning Torah”
Somebody in Israel has to work for a living. Not everyone can learn full time. And see Rambam Hilchot Talmud Torah 3:10.
“the prohibition against women enlisting in the military is Yehareig V’al Yaavor.”
Pikuach nefesh overrides Yehareig V’al Yaavor and you know that. And without women serving in the IDF there would be another Shoah. You know that too. If Charedi men served in sufficient numbers the women would not be needed in such large numbers.
You asked what the chareidim are doing to help with the army if they can’t join the army, did I read that correctly?
Don’t you know that they are spending their time learning Torah and don’t you know how powerful it is and how much of a merit it is to help the Israeli army in this war?
As a Charedi living in Erets Yisrael, these discussions bother me.
Disagree, ask questions, delve into the sources, knowledge is a very good thing. However at a certain point everyone has to step back and realize that there are different paths in yidishkeit. Chareidim should not join the army for one simple reason, being part of the Charedi world includes following the direction of its leaders and Rabanim who have advised against army service. What bothers me is the complete disregard for this fact that as long as one is following Halacha from his Rabanim, he is doing Ratzon Hashem.
This doesn’t mean that the original questions aren’t difficult ones. I have faced in person the pain and anguish of Mizrachi parents emotionally voicing how they feel its unfair how their children put their lives on the line, and unfortunately have faced tragedies, while the Charedi party goes largely unharmed. I understand where there emotions are coming from, as well as those who agree with them, however such an outspoken opinion only causes pirud and anger amongst the Jewish people. (This goes the other way as well when Charedi people don’t show support and hakaros hatov to those who are risking their lives for their safety putting aside differences of opinion.)
We are all Hashem’s children and are striving to do His Will. I don’t know of any Charedi people who follow the Charedi path in order to get out of serving in the army. The opposite is true, if the Rabanim would endorse army service the bachurim will be itching to get their hands on a gun (there are almost no outlets in EY yeshivos). However, until then, the Charedi community is trying to serve Hashem to their best abilities as they see fit.I am truly baffled by some of these comments like “Zionist military enterprise”. Some of these people live in a fantasy world of their own creation. For those living in reality, we realize that over 7 million Jews live in Eretz Yisrael. Perhaps, they should not have come “like a wall or en masse” in violation of one the three oaths? Yes, because it would have made, more sense to die in Hitler’s (yemach shmo) Europe, Stalin’s Soviet Union or all the Arab countries in the Middle East. Oops, our bad. But staying alive supersedes any Aggagdata in Mesechet Ketubot.
It’s true those 7 million Jews in Israel face many threats, to their spiritual wellbeing by secular influences, in the workforce, educational institutions, media and the Army. However, the rockets of Hamas, Hezbolla, Yeman and Iran, in addtion to the shootings, kidnappings, and car rammings, pose an immediate physical threat to life. Therefore, someone has to fight in the “Zionist military enterprise”.
To quote the USMC Colonel in the movie “A Few Good Men”
“I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very freedom [or safety in our case] that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it! I would rather you just said “thank you” and went on your way, Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a weapon and stand a post.”
@simcha613
if you really want to know the reason behind Gedolei Yisroel’s opposition to the religious jews joining the army, search for
“Rabbi Mordechai Noigershal – Perspectives on Drafting Yeshiva Students” the shiur can be found on kol halashon and on youtube
its a shiur given in plain english (heavy israeli accent but very easy to understand)
enjoyone more thing at the beginning of the shiur Rabbi Noigershal states that the reason Gedolei Yisroel assured joining the army has nothing to do with not accepting the zionist state
@modern
“Pikuach nefesh overrides Yehareig V’al Yaavor” This is one of the most laughably idiotic statements I’ve ever read, even by CR standards.It is a heartbreaking question. But women should not be in the military under any circumstances.
Pikuach nefesh overrides Yehareig V’al Yaavor and you know that.
Huh?
Would you criticize the IDF cook by saying: “Why are you sitting comfortably in a safe room while other soldiers are risking their lives on the battlefield? Why aren’t you out there in danger, fighting alongside them?”
Such an argument would be absurd. While combat may seem more heroic and demanding than working in the kitchen, if the cooks were to abandon their post and join the battle, the soldiers would starve!
The soldiers and the cooks are partners, each fulfilling a critical role in the war effort.
The same applies to Torah learners and physical fighters:
The ruchniyus aspect of the war is waged by those learning Torah in yeshiva, while the physical war is fought by the soldiers on the battlefield.
The Gemara says (Sanhedrin 49a):
אילמלא דוד לא עשה יואב מלחמה ואילמלא יואב לא עסק דוד בתורה
Were it not for David [who engaged in Torah study], Joab would not have been able to wage war. And were it not for Joab [who fought the battles], David would not have been able to study Torah.If either side abandoned their responsibilities due to a desire to do the other’s role, it would endanger us all, ch”v.
Menachem > The same applies to Torah learners and physical fighters:
The problem is that partnerships are agreed upon (same applies to Issachar/Zevulun). It seems that learners and general Israeli public (ranging from loony left to traditional to observant-zioni to sephardim) do not fully agree on this. Surely, both sides are to blame, and probably there is not much can be done to appease the anti-religious left. But if many observant and Israeli traditional public is not happy with the arrangement, it may be that the learning-only community is at fault i their midos, learning, attitudes towards army, etc. Rather than saying “no” to any kind of engagement, they should be looking how they can help in any possible way.
> But women should not be in the military under any circumstances.
So, chareidi public should send volunteers to substitute for these women.
The Chareidim won’t go to the IDF because the Torah leadership has to us not to. End of discussion. Are you angry at a patient told by his doctor not to enlist because of his physical frailty? Of course not. Similarly, No reason to be angry with the Chareidim at large, they were told not to join the IDF by their spiritual doctors because it’s too unsafe due to their spiritual frailty.
Should you be angry at the Chareidi Torah leaders? No, you shouldn’t. They were entrusted by Hashem to make the final decisions for the Torah nation & even if they’re wrong, we are commanded to follow them.
Would you be angry at the Chofetz Chaim if he said the same thing to us? I hope not.
The Torah leaders of this generation are the Einei Ho’eida, the eyes of our people & must be followed just like the Chofetz Chaim in his day.
Don’t be angry, be happy that so many Jews still value the opinions of the great Torah leaders & walk in their footsteps. Many of those who have no leaders to follow are drifting away from full observance of Toras Moshe. They are confused in so many areas of modern life.
Ashreinu Umah Tov Chelkeinu that we still have gedolei Yisroel to lead us.please > What bothers me is the complete disregard for this fact that as long as one is following Halacha from his Rabanim, he is doing Ratzon Hashem.
We do not currently have a Sanhedrin, that we should follow – and if Sanhedrin makes a mistake there is a Torah-prescribed procedure for karbonos, so it even a mistake by a Sanhedrin is not an unthinkable situation. So, as we have multiple groups of rabbonim makes different rulings, at some point you become responsible for your decisions. This should especially apply to modern charedi community where many people spend years learning and, in addition, can access variety of other opinions with modern communication tools, starting with this CR. Respect for Rabbonim is great, but a large community of Talmidei Cahchomim should be able to ask questions of those Rabbonim – and, at the end, Rabbonim are indirectly elected by the community itself: you decide where to send your shailos, where to send your children to school, which Rebbe’s tisch to attend.
Thank you @yuda the maccabee for referencing Rabbi Mordechai Nuergershal’s speech.
I just listened to the whole thing, and it is fantastic!
Anybody who really cares about understanding rather than spewing hatred should take the time to listen.
Always>
I’m not sure I understand your point. is there something wrong in deciding to follow certain Rabanim and belong to a certain community? And if one chooses to live a certain way (acc. to Halacha) is it not sinas chinam to be angry at such a person for having a different way of life even if you think they’re wrong?please,
there are often complicated questions. Even R Yohanan was not sure whether he was correct minimizing his request to Vespasian. Upheavals of last 200 years, and especially last 100 are probably unprecedented, more than times of BM2 churban and Spanish expulsion. Did anyone know exactly how to respond to assimilation trends 200 years ago? Some tried to translate chumash in German, some tried to establish yeshivos, some tried to teach both secular and Jewish studies, some wanted to teach girls chumash, there was no one answer and no one “gadol” who knew all the answers. We are at a little better state now (not counting millions of Jews that we are not reaching), but still there are several different approaches that survived from this great struggle. Is it not our responsibility to investigate the issues to our best ability. And I mean here at least people who have sechel, information, and learning for that. As I just posted in another thread, if you were born in Kletzk, and I was born in Pinsk, does this mean that your emes resides in Kletzk?Again, there are different minhagim, but there are also issues that we all are thinking about and should be listening to each other.
modern:
You wrote that “Zionism is central to Judaism. And without the “zionist military enterprise” there would be another Shoah and Judaism would cease to exist in Israel.”Would you swear on a sefer Torah that what you wrote is anywhere remotely close to true, or are you just repeating Zionist propaganda?
Actually, the facts are the opposite; funny how idolatry works. Zionism is the polar opposite of Judaism. Judaism is g0d and Torah-based, while Zionism is godless and nationalist land-based. The Zionist “enterprise” caused, and also contributed to, that shoah. Even the Zionists admit that they prioritized Zionism over rescuing Jews in Europe. But that’s not even the tip of that iceberg. Finally, Judaism was doing just fine in Mandatory Palestine until the Zionists invaded.
chaim_baruch:
You wrote: “…over 7 million Jews live in Eretz Yisrael. Perhaps, they should not have come “like a wall or en masse” in violation of one the three oaths? Yes, because it would have made, more sense to die in Hitler’s (yemach shmo) Europe, Stalin’s Soviet Union or all the Arab countries in the Middle East. Oops, our bad. But staying alive supersedes any Aggagdata in Mesechet Ketubot.”
You obviously aren’t being serious (or, if you are, you’re just mindlessly parroting Zionist nonsense and lies). The Holocaust happened because of the Zionists. As well, the Zionists did their part to ensure that Jews burned in Hitler’s ovens because Zionism was and is above all else in the Zionist idolatrous faith. Jews were also doing just fine in the Arab countries until the Zionists invaded the holy land and set the whole region on fire.
As to the “aggadata”, it is brought down liHalacha on the spot by numerous poskim, and the Rambam himself invokes them as halachically binding in his Iggeres Teiman. The Maharal happens to hold that they are yehareig viAl yaavor, as it happens, too.
As far as women go did the CI abd MGHT say that שרות לאומי is יהרג ואל יעבר? Does anyone remember ?
Highly recommend checking out the articles linked below. If we would just approach the army and make a serious offer/demands of what needs to be met, I have little doubt chareidim could serve and remain frum (at least those who were internally committed to Torah u’mitzvos before enlisting, maybe not those who were just going through motions/Orthoprax so as not to be ostracized by their families).
The reality has changed in many ways since the Chazon Ish gave his horaas sha’a.
On a related note, I’ve heard that they are now starting to build an entire base that would be charedi, no women, etcFull disclosure: I also did Shlav Bet, and it was an incredible experience. If anyone is interested in hearing more about it/signing up, feel free to email [email protected]
https://iyun.org.il/en/sedersheni/haredi-idf-service-its-up-to-us/
@simcha613
there is no mitzvah in the evil act of joining the IDF.the Torah that kosher Jews learn protects Jews but does not protect rashayim. It certainly doesn’t help the zionist fight their evil wars.
You seem so desperate to enlist kosher jews into the zionist heresy, may all the haters of Hashem and His people quickly be destroyed.
A milchemes mitzvah is only when it is a direct command from Hashem through nevuah or urim vetumim
@ivory You’re free to be ignorant of halacha, but you’re not free to invent it:
ואי זו היא מלחמת מצוה זו מלחמת שבעה עממים ומלחמת עמלק ועזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם ואחר כך נלחם במלחמת הרשות והיא המלחמה שנלחם עם שאר העמים כדי להרחיב גבול ישראל ולהרבות בגדולתו ושמעו מלחמת מצוה אינו צריך ליטול בה רשות בית דין אלא יוצא מעצמו בכל עת וכופה העם לצאת אבל מלחמת הרשות אינו מוציא העם בה אלא על פי בית דין של שבעים ואחד.
עזרת ישראל מיד צר שבא עליהם is obviously exactly what’s going on today with Hamas and Hezbollah. You don’t need prophecy or אורים ותומים. And everyone is required to fight, “ben yeshiva” or otherwise.
Heinlein had the answer: Let only those who have served vote. The anti-Jewish chareidim can continue to live and in the Holy Land and pursue their interests. Just don’t let them vote.
It is difficult for Hareidim to serve until parents can feel their innocent boy can go in Hareidi and emerge Hareidi. For this to happen their needs to be an entire division that is Hareidi. Totally separate from every Taava that seduces children who grew up Hareidi but by the end of their service tragically they diverge from the community. Only then can the State expect people to show up for drafts.
We also see in the Torah, that when there is a group of people whose heart is not invested in fighting side by side with their brothers, they should stay at home and not hurt the national morale.
So in addition to the learning and tehillim perhaps the Hareidi community can think what can they do to lift up the morale. Women in Beitar provide shabbos good for families whose husband’s are off fighting, for example.
At the end of the day everyone wants the same outcome.ותשקטות הארץ ארבעים שנה
jewish unity, thanks for these great references – and for your service. Is your experience similar to what is described in the 2nd article?
Also, note if you click on a link in the first article, you’ll see another one with quotes from R Schach, Steipler saying that those who are not in full-time learning (meaning no other occupation at all), should be in the army, otherwise they are rodfim on those who are. Any other opinions about these quotes – are they correct or taken out of contxt, or there is more in the sources?
>>>the Torah that kosher Jews learn protects Jews but does not protect rashayim.
Uh…. There are at least two pesukim in the Torah that say otherwise. By Sedom and the Meraglim . But that is just another part of Torah that doesn’t fit with the religion the extreme anti-Zionists preach. It is far from the only one
Lots and lots of comments but AFAIC the OP answers the question himself.
“My daughter …called up to reserve duty when she was finished with her service, in order to guard and feed the Nakba terrorists in jail, because they have a shortage of soldiers.”Hello?
The obvious conclusion should be “SCREW YOU.” There’s any half-logical argument to drafting harmless, innocent fellows simply MTOB to feed some terrorists????????????????@Bitter
“Obviously every בר בי רב לחד יומא understands that there’s a חיוב גמור על פי דין for every able-bodied Jew to fight in today’s war, … But it’s funny when people like the original poster sit back in their armchair with their leg on their knee asking what the “chareidim” should be doing. You’re just as מחוייב as they are. Even if you live in America. So stop being a hypocrite and asking how other people can be more meticulous in halachah and go join the army yourself. …Are you currently enlisted in the IDF? If not, keep quiet. ”
Huh? Are you in the IDF? And if you’re excused (maybe you’re over 60) then why can’t the OP be as well?
BTW
“The “chareidim” are obviously remiss in their halachic obligation, but they are at least contributing to some extent by learning Torah and becoming תלמידי חכמים ”
Huh? I thought everyone except for you, specifically and particularly the “chareidim” in “yeshivos” are all complete ignoramuses.Zionist unity:
Zionism was and is the same idolatry that it always has been, and its army is the same (or even worse) Zionist indoctrination factory of shmad as it was then. No, it is a non-starter as all the gedolim stated both then and, lbc”l, now. And the Chazon Ish did not make a “horaas shaah”; he conveyed basic timeless Torah.Much more recently, Rav Steinman (who passed away a few years ago, unlike the Chazon Ish), told a boy who came to him with his father – trying to convince Rav Steinman to tell his father to let him join a “frum” framework in the IDF – that the boy would come out “a total goy” no matter what IDF framework he would attend.
Please don’t mislead.
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