Question from a BT to and FFB

Welcome!
I’m a young FFB, but both my parents are BT’s, and became so when I was a little girl. So although I didn’t really have a choice, I remember eating treif, going to parties, celebrating non jewish holidays, and more. All of my extended family is not religous, and although we don’t talk much (my parents talk to them more) questions like this do come up, and I try my best to explain.

The Torah is the blueprint of the world. We don’t need to look into secular history to learn from, look in the Torah and you’ll find plenty of rape, betrayal, etc. There’s plenty of books and commentaries on that, in Israel through out high school all of the history classes were about rabanim, the holocaust, and not just history itself but the flame and the ideas, what it was like to live in Europe during WW2 and the secular influences. Split up and makes cases against and for keeping torah at the time. We learned in depth about the different idealistic movements throughout history, communism, industrial, when literature became big, and science became big, etc.

So for history, were good.

Okay, so does everything have to connect to Torah? YES! The Torah was written 2000 years before Hashem even created the world! And the aleph beis was created anther 2000 years before that! The Torah has everything we could ever need, and is the basis of life itself. Everything even in the secular world, has roots in the Torah, science has proven things written in the Torah time and time again.

Does relaxing serve a prpose? Yes it does, we need to unwind to be able to be productive human beings.
So what’s wrong with secular books?

Well, first of all there’s a lot of kefirah in secular books. i DON’T know the halachos about kefirah, but I remember in seminary a teacher had told us her husband forced her to burn a secular novel after she told him that there’s a scene where scientists come up with another explanation for what seemed to be the remains of noah’s ark, and how the story couldn’t be real.

So I know many books have kefirah, and unless you know the halachos really well and are on the constant look out, science and politcal books can be dangerous. If you do want to read such books I suggest to consult a rabbi, leanr the halachos etc. The reson why the thread was deleted is because for the average FFB, these are of no interest and they don’t really add anything to our lives, like I said before, if you are looking to learn from things there’s PLENTY in our own history, and there’s frum science books if you know where to get them. (At ;least IN HEBREW I know…)

About novels, even the ones that are “clean” and have no language at all, the undercurrents and values in the book can be against our own. Sneaking around, lying, stealing, and more are prevalent in these novels. Everything you read and see DOES affect you, you are less sensitive to these things. When I stopped reading and watching for the most part, every time I watch something I can pause the video and say “hey that’s stealing” “hey that’s lying” even in KIDS movies, I’m talking about Disney movies my sister begs me to watch with her, whose intended audience is 5-10 year olds.

Now, I don’t blame you for wanting to read those things, they are more interesting often times, and you do you. As a BT, I don’t think you need to give them up just yet, but that’s the ideal place…..

Do you understand?

Keith,
We’re livening in a time where culture, good or bad, is being thrown into the garbage heap.
The progressive mindset , especially in academia and the arts is that great art, great books, great music, values, etc. from the past is mocked and in some cases demonized.
This holds true in the frum world also.
I learned in a frum, though not Chassidic nor strictly yeshivish yeshiva. Like most others, secular subjects were taught in the afternoon; sciences, literature, English, languages , etc. in high school.
Dickens, Shakespeare, poems, sonnets, plays …. and other classics.
All under the aegis of rosh yeshivos, rabbis, with parental approval. We took exams, and the dreaded Regents…. on the very desks where an hour ago, a big Talmud tome has rested . You’re correct in that there’s learning and value in reading history, studying the great classics and other great secular material. Just as smartphones/computers can used be used for negatives, so too can it be used for good.
Some rabbis known as “gedolim” also read theses books, and many more were very familiar with the history and classical music.
We live in an age of revisionism and outright lies masquerading as religion or frum, or whatever you want to call it. The famous Jewish publisher of the Talmud, Chumash, etc, which also publishes bios of rabbis have deliberately omitted this info. They have also refused to publish a RASHBAM in their new Bereishit chumash because of some mealy-mouthed excuse, when it was in fact published for hundreds of years.
There is now Photoshopping, pixelating and erasing photos of women whether they were mothers, wives rebbetzins or just old grandmas in magazines, rags, freebie tabloids, serious articles and individual paintings.
BTW, I’m FFB, and interestingly, a number of people whom I’ve known over the years who were, or came from BT families were in the tank with anti- secular book parade.
( Never let an ex—– smoker drinker, gluten , blintzes eater, drive you nuts) .
There’s good/bad , great/mediocre/…. atheistic/faith … sewage/gold … in everything.
Heck, you can see spirituality even in a baseball game when you set your mind to it.
Speaking of 1984 ,it’s almost here, in more than one way .

REPLY
ZionGateParticipant
Keith,
We’re livening in a time where culture, good or bad, is being thrown into the garbage heap.
The progressive mindset , especially in academia and the arts is that great art, great books, great music, values, etc. from the past is mocked and in some cases demonized.
This holds true in the frum world also.
I learned in a frum, though not Chassidic nor strictly yeshivish yeshiva. Like most others, secular subjects were taught in the afternoon; sciences, literature, English, languages , etc. in high school.
Dickens, Shakespeare, poems, sonnets, plays …. and other classics.
All under the aegis of rosh yeshivos, rabbis, with parental approval. We took exams, and the dreaded Regents…. on the very desks where an hour ago, a big Talmud tome has rested . You’re correct in that there’s learning and value in reading history, studying the great classics and other great secular material. Just as smartphones/computers can used be used for negatives, so too can it be used for good.
Some rabbis known as “gedolim” also read theses books, and many more were very familiar with the history and classical music.
We live in an age of revisionism and outright lies masquerading as religion or frum, or whatever you want to call it. The famous Jewish publisher of the Talmud, Chumash, etc, which also publishes bios of rabbis have deliberately omitted this info. They have also refused to publish a RASHBAM in their new Bereishit chumash because of some mealy-mouthed excuse, when it was in fact published for hundreds of years.
There is now Photoshopping, pixelating and erasing photos of women whether they were mothers, wives rebbetzins or just old grandmas in magazines, rags, freebie tabloids, serious articles and individual paintings.
BTW, I’m FFB, and interestingly, a number of people whom I’ve known over the years who were, or came from BT families were in the tank with anti- secular book parade.
( Never let an ex—– smoker drinker, gluten , blintzes eater, drive you nuts) .
There’s good/bad , great/mediocre/…. atheistic/faith … sewage/gold … in everything.
Heck, you can see spirituality even in a baseball game when you set your mind to it.
Speaking of 1984 ,it’s almost here, in more than one way.
————————
You could not have said it any better. Thank you for not mincing words like so many commentators tend to do here.
Btw huckleberry finn was one of the most common book read in many frum high school’s in america during the 70’s and 80’s
And so was romeo and juliet. Then came the extremists and dictated to start using artscroll in high schools. V’hamavin yavin. $$$$

@keith

I’m a BT, like you. I’ve read all the books you mentioned in your earlier post.

My experience has been that the more Torah study and mitzvos I bring into my life, the less space and desire there is for non-essential secular activities. By Torah study, I’m including Talmud, halachos, etc.

So it’s not so much a matter of consciously excluding the secular. It seems to happen automatically.

DaasYochid,
Thanks for their “explanation.” Maybe the big pushback from outraged readers changed their mind, but it’s good to know they retracted.

keith @12:54,
I understand what you’re saying. For relaxation, I’ll read hobby books, real life mysteries, and some others on subjects that interest me, and I’m not bothered by it, because I also spend time learning the good Jewish books.
As someone told me about a different issue which I’ll apply here :
” When in Shomayim ( Heaven) they’ll ask you about the books, you just know it’s nearing the end of the Judgment process.”
Hopefully, by that time I’ll have corrected my neshama, expunged by sins and, for example, just flat out prayed every prayer with the proper kavanah, and didn’t talk during davening. You know …. little things like that.
Shabbat Shalom.

You seem to be mixing two points
1. Reading books that don’t have an educational value just to relax.

2. Reading secular books to get educated.

Before getting into it I commend you on your years of growth. Yesher koach.

As far as reading just for entertainment perhaps that would be suitable for someone who watches TV and is trying to stop. If they can read relatively not such bad books that is an improvement. However a Rav who grew up ffb and doesn’t need that stuff shouldn’t waste his time and risk filling his mind with hashkafos which are against the Torah.

In terms of “outlets” this is something that takes time. There are people who waste very very little time and accomplish lots of good things. You probably know people like this. You can’t get there over night.

As far as reading for education. Let’s think about it. Let’s say you want to learn how to fix your car, how to knit a sweater, how to paint, pay your taxes, play the piano etc you are not going to get that from learning gemarah. You just aren’t.

So for those who can’t learn every waking hour reading about some of the above could be a very good thing for them. It may help with the needing outlets problem too.

Shopping,
The Mods didn’t let my response to you go through.
The photo is NOT graphic. You can see search and see it for yourself.

Literature
by Rabbi Steven Pruzansky

The Jewish Press (February 16, 2018) asked a number of rabbis to address this interesting but rarely-discussed question: “Some of the most famous and important works of literature contain passages and themes that are immodest in nature. May a G-d-fearing Jew read these works for the good they contain, or must he forego reading them entirely?”

These were my thoughts on the matter:

I don’t believe there is a definitive answer to this question, although it is certainly easier just to say “no.” Much depends on motivation, purpose, context, source, and especially the precise nature of the immorality, of which, of course, there are gradations. Perhaps the most important determinant is the message that is being delivered. Ancient and medieval works generally frowned on immorality and as such reinforce a Torah message while more modern and contemporary works often celebrate immorality. Usually, no good comes from the latter and prolonged exposure to values that are antithetical to Torah will eventually dilute the reader’s moral perspective and later his or her practice and commitment as well.
It’s important to note that Chazal (recorded in Shulchan Aruch, Orach Chaim 307:16) banned the reading of “divrei cheshek” – loosely, books of romance – as a waste of time that could be spent on more godly pursuits and as a tool that could only increase illicit temptation. Books that might fall under that genre must therefore have some redeeming value. Its prurient aspects must be incidental to its primary message for it to be considered appropriate and worthwhile. Fiction generally, Rav Kook wrote, affords us the opportunity to see the world through the eyes of another person’s experiences and thus can broaden our horizons. But not every lifestyle or experience deserves to be investigated, studied or fantasized about and certainly not emulated. So caution must be applied.
That being said, there is one Book that exposes the vices and venality that can permeate human nature and is unsparing in its accounts of our failings. It is superior to any work of fiction. That Book is the Tanach. And we can rest assured that its moral guidance is always spot on. Anyone who wants to learn about our potential for degradation as well great virtue is urged to study the relevant passages and not just skip over them. They provide a solid grounding in moral instruction and, nevertheless, occasionally put human dysfunction on display. One who is drawn to indulge in problematic works of literature would be well advised to study the works of Tanach instead, especially the chronicles of the early prophets. “Turn in it and turn in it, for everything is in it”( Avot 5:22).