January 16, 2024 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #2253806
This is really a question on basi lgani but you can still chime in because it’s based on Gemara that you’re familiar with:
R’ Meir said it’s worth it for Acher to go through gehennom (his Torah had been protecting him so he was in limbo) in order to get to gan Eden.
Following this logic means that like the posuk says מריד לשאול ויעל- Hashem lowers a person into gehennom for the purpose of elevating him afterwards correspondingly (which makes the gehennom worth it).
My question: how could it be that the worst reshaim who die without Teshuva, including people who misuse Torah for klipah purposes etc, go higher in gan Eden after gehennom than Tzaddikim? Because following this logic it would seem that במקום שבעלי תשובה עומדים צדיקים גמורים אינם יכולים לעמוד שם, would apply to the worst poshim who die without teshuva too, by virtue of their time in gehennom which was involuntary?
Btw this ois in the maamar clarified for me that if/when I’ll be in gehennom, I’ll still be able to feel/ Derher/ understand Hashem’s Presence, so at least for thatJanuary 16, 2024 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #2254147
Acher was not a simple rasha; he had led a life that warranted immense olam haba for his Torah and avodah prior to going off the derech. Rebbe Meir davened that he should get it.
He had a tikun, but where did you see that his gan eden is better than tzadikim? I don’t think that’s true; chotei niscar? Doesn’t make any sense.
And what that has to do with feeling dveikus in gehinnom
…it’s not a nechoma – don’t do aveiros, do teshuva, and you don’t have to worry about gehinnom. Hashem doesn’t want anyone to have to go there, but it’s worse than anything we can imagine. Such is necessary to cleanse a person of their chataim. I don’t think people have the capacity to experience that kind of suffering and feel Hashem’s presence. It sounds like a fantasy.January 16, 2024 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2254164Gedol HadorParticipant
I agree 100% with Avira. In most cases, a total rasha will not merit to go through Gehennom as a means of achieving Gan Eden; he will either cease to exist upon his death (Rambam Hilchos Teshuvah) or burn in Gehennom for ever and ever (Rosh Hashanah 17a). Hashem was especially merciful in Acher’s case by not sending him to Gehennom for eternity, but that would have meant no Gan Eden either; and then Rebbi Meir’s zchus helped him get into Gehennom for a short tinein order to eventually arrive at Gan EdenJanuary 17, 2024 1:10 am at 1:10 am #2254194
But there’s still nothing in the sugya that indicates that achers gan eden was special or even anywhere close to the level of tzadikim or baalei teshuvah(who are also tzadikim)January 17, 2024 1:15 am at 1:15 am #2254193
Gedol, most reshoim, even those who do lots of aveiros, do eventually have olam haba – the most gehinom lasts for is one year, though every second feels like ages, chazal say. People who lose their olam haba are a distinct category, as delineated in the mishnayos in Sanhedrin. People who are punished forever are also limited to rare cases, “geninnom finishes but they don’t”
Some are punished with worse suffering than gehinnom, which is chiefly intended to cleanse a person of their sins – acher had not been able to enter geninnom, as the OP correctly stated, since his Torah was protecting him. Rebbe Meir davened for that protection to subside somehow and for him to enter geninnom, where he could eventually reach gan eden; this was a very merciful decision, and it was probably a neis, since Hashem changed the way the laws of the ruchnius world run, similar to changing the way the laws of nature work in the physical world.January 17, 2024 5:09 pm at 5:09 pm #2254364Gedol HadorParticipant
Avira, there are two things I’m unsure about:
1) What does this sentence mean? ‘Some are punished with worse suffering than gehinnom, which is chiefly intended to cleanse a person of their sins – acher had not been able to enter geninnom, as the OP correctly stated, since his Torah was protecting him.’
2) Are we disagreeing?January 18, 2024 9:46 pm at 9:46 pm #2254873sechel83Participant
see igeres hakodesh vol 1 letter 85, about someone who dies without teshuva how he can be zoche to olam haba.
a regular person who is a tzadik then goes off the derech – see kidushin end of the first perek 40b, someone who regrets his prior avodas hashem
ר”ש בן יוחי אומר אפילו צדיק גמור כל ימיו ומרד באחרונה איבד את הראשונות שנאמר צדקת הצדיק לא תצילנו ביום פשעו ואפילו רשע גמור כל ימיו ועשה תשובה באחרונה אין מזכירים לו שוב רשעו שנאמר ורשעת הרשע לא יכשל בה ביום שובו מרשעו וניהוי כמחצה עונות ומחצה זכיות אמר ריש לקיש בתוהא על הראשונותJanuary 19, 2024 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #2254989
Sechel, the gemara you quoted is accurate, but how does the Lubavitcher rebbe in any way see from there that someone who dies withoit teshuvah can have olam haba?(assuming the aveiros were the type which make a person lose their olam haba, if not, then there’s no chiddush, no?)January 20, 2024 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #2255116
Hi, nice to see this thread up, it wasn’t approved the first day, and now I get to see the basi LGani discussion on yud Shvat.
Avira and whoever, the way The Rebbe explained the sugya was by explaining that the Torah is Toras Chessed and even the punishments are there to help the person. My question was based on the part where The Rebbe spoke about yerida ltzorech aliya, and said how just like with acher, the more deeper/ painful experience gehennom is, the lower he goes, the higher he’ll end up afterwards.
My understanding is that this is like a nisayon, which, although involuntary, has the ability to lift the person higher and closer to Hashem than his contemporaries afterwards, even though the nisayon wasn’t his choice. Similarly, if I were to go through the sobering darkness of gehennom (which I’m definitely not hoping for), I could technically grow closer to Hashem, Who is closer in the darkness, than the stage by stage light of gan Eden.
Not that I’m looking to do that because A) it’s not the plan A ratzon Hashem, and B) an incredibly painful experienceJanuary 20, 2024 8:03 pm at 8:03 pm #2255126
@Avira you can’t really say that acher is a different story because The Gemara also says that Poshei Yisrael are filled with mitzvos like a pomegranate, so every yid has what to hang out in gan Eden for, assuming they make it there before techiyas hameisim, which in the past, the vast majority probably didJanuary 21, 2024 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2255137
CS, does the Lubavitcher rebbe bring anyone else who says that yeridah letzorech Aliyah applies to how horrible geninnom is vs. how big their olam haba will be? I’m sorry, but that sounds completely untenable. If someone is in a worse part of gehinnom, it is to cleanse him of worse and deeper sins than others. Like a stain on the majority of a shirt vs a tiny blemish. After he’s done getting his sins burned off, he’s at the most, the same level as the one with the small sin.
but besides the lichluch hachait, there’s another factor. The time a tzadik spends doing mitzvos vs the time the rasha spends sinning. In this world, we grow; we cannot grow in olam haba. The more we accomplish here, the more we get there. The time and energy spent sinning could have been used for avodas Hashem; that, the rasha is missing out on and will be missing it forever. It is lost potential. Of course, teshuva makes him better than the tzadik gamur in some ways, but that’s an avodah that is done here, not there.
You’re convincing me more and more of the diversions of the Lubavitcher rebbe from basic jewish hashkofa.January 21, 2024 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2255149
Yes, there’s sources. Imrei bina from the Mitteler Rebbe on the concept of Hashem being found in gehennom just as much as gan Eden. As tehillim 139 says, אם אסק שמים שם אתה ואציעה שאול הנך. Comparing the two.
And the idea of punishments being Chessed for the person, morid lsheol vayaal etc, he gets from the Tzemach Tzemach Tzedek- (ש״א ב,ו)
The Rebbe is always quoting sources, but you’re right. Chabad has alot in common with every Jew/ group, but we’re also significantly unique.
For example, as opposed to focusing on rewards/ punishment) which of course is there, we focus on revealing how this world is Hashem’s Garden / bridal chamber (bosi lgani/ lignuni- Shir HaShirim) and bringing the ultimate Shechina back home here in this world, which will culminate with Moshiach’s coming.
Hence, we’re more obsessed with the opportunities and zechus this world has to offer than the next world, we’re much more Moshiach focused, and we embrace the idea of Geula HoAmitis VHaShleima encompassing every single Jew, hence the need to reach out to others instead of secluding ourselves.January 21, 2024 9:47 am at 9:47 am #2255156
Avira you also seem to be forgetting that every Yid is filled with mitzvos as a pomegranate is filled with seeds (that’s Gemara, not Chassidus) so of course he belongs in gan Eden after he’s been cleansed.
This doesn’t mean that all poshim rise above Tzaddikim- that was my takeaway that it could be possible. For example yeravam was offered by Hashem to do teshuva, and if so, he would rise above everyone but Dovid HaMelech. He declined when he heard Dovid would be first. Interestingly, Dovid himself experienced much suffering/ teshuva which is maybe why he would still come out on top.
And I know we’re not discussing teshuva but rather gehennom. Point being that Yeravam also wasted time on aveiros and was machati es harabbim, yet- if he would have done teshuva he would’ve ended up at the top.
This is the power is teshuva- it derives from above Seder Hishtalshelus. Similarly, a nisayon brings out the etzem hanefesh when overcome properly. So it seems here that gehennom can have a similar sobering/ maturing effect.
Also worth mentioning that in gan Eden- the malochim/ people are called omdim- they rise only one level at a time. It’s possible that the dark suffering of gehennom can elevate a person higher than sitting in gan Eden for the same amount of time wouldJanuary 21, 2024 2:48 pm at 2:48 pm #2255260
CS, i asked if there were sources that state openly that the worse gehinnom a person has, the more olam haba he will have subsequently, applying the concept of yeridah letzorech aliyah.
The sources you mention say nothing of the sort. Only that Hashem is everywhere, even in gehinnom, which every single person who believes in ain ohd milvado would agree to, and that generally punishments are for the benefit of s person – again, the more stains, the more cleansing, but where in the world do you see that such a person will receive more reward? It’s not only without a source, it makes no sense.
Chazal say that “even” such people are filled with mitzvos like a rimon(i remember it saying this about empty ones, from the pasuk krimon raykasaych, as in amei haaretz – maybe it says it about poshei yisroel too, j don’t recall, but either way, it doesn’t mean they’re on the level of tzadikim!)
As for your example of yeravam, i addressed the issue of teshuva clearly in my response. Teshuva is something done in this world, the world of opportunity. Eisav could have been bigger than yaakov had he done teshuva, and yeravam, whose teshuva would have taught others more than dovids(see maharsha there) would have had more schar HAD HE DONE TESHUVA, but chazal say clearly that he has lost his olam haba because he failed to do so. A bechira decision.January 21, 2024 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #2255318
Sorry I quoted the wrong source for the Tzemach Tzedek. If you’re planning on looking it up, I’ll see if I can locate which maamar it was.January 21, 2024 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #2255346
This isn’t the first, second, or third time I’ve looked in vain for sources in the Lubavitcher rebbes musings from his defenders on this site.January 21, 2024 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2255352
Cs, your extrapolation from an already untenable notion to the idea that gehinnom… makes a person elevated more than gan eden…. there’s a lot to unpack here, and i think mental health tools would be beneficial. Derech eretz kadma letorah; being a healthy person is a prerequisite for understanding Torah. I believe this is beyond my abilities. I do wish you well.
A few things to think about – if you don’t know the plain meaning of kabed es Avicha, the chasidishe level of understanding becomes irrelevant.
So too, i want you to think about the below concepts from a simple, rambam/mesilas yeshorim hashkofa perspective, and perhaps something will break through.
What is gan eden?
What is the purpose of this world?
(The rambam and mesilas yeshorim do not discuss dirah betachtonim because it is an advanced concept, and there is a fundamental idea that supercedes it, since Hashem needs nothing, He clearly had an overarching principle in creating the world – read the first perek of mesilas yeshorim)
What is gehinnom and what is its suffering?
The answers are all very available. I absolutely love chasidishe Torah, but these…. musings, are clear evidence that one needs a strong background in the nigleh of hashkofa before approaching the hallowed halls of chasidishe Torah.January 21, 2024 9:54 pm at 9:54 pm #2255353
Avira I quoted the other sources accurately, I just misread the footnote which was to another nearby quote. And I posted to correct it. He definitely attributes that piece to The Tzemach Tzedek, but it wasn’ta clear footnote, and I’d need to look into it, which I’d be happy to do if you were gonna do serious research. I have limited personal learning time on a daily basis, and the bulk is currently reserved for the Rambam (aside from Chitas) with the footnotes so I can see what’s relevant todayJanuary 21, 2024 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #2255354
Just to be melamed zechus, in case you didn’t know, this is how the Frierdiker Rebbe described the Rebbe (before he was Rebbe and the extent of his Torah knowledge:
“The Frierdiker Rebbe sent a delegation of Chassidim on his behalf to greet the Rebbe and Rebbetzin. They were: Rabbi Y. Jacobson, Rabbi S. A. Kazarnovsky, Rabbi S. Levitin and Rabbi E. Simpson. On the previous evening, the Frierdiker Rebbe had summoned these Chassidim to his room and told them: “I appoint you as my emissaries to go and greet my son-in-law, who is arriving tomorrow. I will reveal to you what sort of a person he is: every night he says Tikkun Chatzos. He is fluent in Shas and poskim; in Yerushalmi, with all of its commentaries, he knows the Rambam and the Likkutei Torah verbatim — with all of its sources. Go and greet him!”January 22, 2024 1:18 am at 1:18 am #2255372
Lots of people praised controversial rabbinic figures. If they say something that is against the mesorah, then that’s a mistake; having gedolim praise them means very little in the face of clear errors, such as that of rabbi yoshe ber soloveitchik, rabbi kook, the Lubavitcher rebbe, and others who i was instructed not to mention because their deviances aren’t well known and they were yirei shomayim; the rest of their Torah was normal, so there’s no need to expose them. שרא להו מרייהו. I will only mention that one made it into the back of the standard print of shas.January 22, 2024 11:58 am at 11:58 am #2255458
I realized that my previous post may have had the implication that i believe rabbi yoshe ber, rabbi kook and the Lubavitcher rebbe did not yave yiras shomayim – that was unintentional. I believe they did, but were mistaken in their novel ideologies.January 22, 2024 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #2255629GadolHadofiParticipant
How dare you write they “were mistaken in their novel ideologies”! Perhaps you can somewhat accurately parrot what you heard from your rebbe but until you know even a fraction of what they knew, “mistaken” is a highly inappropriate and very dangerous word to use.
You may want to think about visiting their kevarim and in the meantime, warn others to keep away from you during lightning storms.January 23, 2024 2:00 am at 2:00 am #2255653
Dofi, it’s a Jew’s responsibility to recognize, well, Dofi, when it is apparent. All of the above knowingly diverged from the mesoros they were given and incorporated either what they admitted themselves were non-Jewish ideologies (enlightenment and zionism, in the case of both rabbi yoshe ber and rabbi kook) or created completely new ideas within judaism(kiruvism, all jews are equal, god in a body, doing mitzvos to bring moshiach and/or because the rebbe says so, erasing sleeping in a sukkah, and much more from the Lubavitcher rebbe, and the idea that the frei are better than the frum due to their zeal for the “land” as believed by rabbi kook)
It’s not as if we need to disprove any of the above – it is on the mechadesh to prove new things, and when one admits that torah alone is not the source of their beliefs, those beliefs are automatically discarded.
But in their personal lives, all of the above were known to be scrupulous about halacha, and I have zero interest in condemning or accepting them as yirei shomayim – many people with yiras shomayim make mistakes, especially in a period of time when the yatzer hora for haskalah was unimaginably powerful…honestly, if i had lived in pre-war europe, who says I would have even stayed frum? I have no idea. I can only judge statements, not people.January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2255654
2 points: point 1- it’s logically silly to pass judgment and decide what’s within mesora etc. when you’re nowhere near the subjects level in yiras shomayim/ Torah knowledge. If you would’ve said that my comparable community Torah leader said that this passed of Bosi LGani is off limits to us litvishers that’s different.
2. I understand that if you believe your whole purpose in this world is to collect schar in gan Eden, then I understand how this discussion is disturbing and incompatible.
I agree that this is a huge chiddush (and am also happy to hear if there is an alternative way to understand the ois by those more knowledgeable than me), but for a Lubavitcher, our Yiddishkeit is based on different foundations (fulfilling Hashems Will and Desire, and striving to become closer to Him, with rewards and punishment as a back burner fact.) so this isn’t threatening but rather comforting as it may be that for any Aveira/ enjoyment of Olam hazeh for its own sake, we will need to go under painful purification (Tanya perek ches), so I was thrilled to discover that I could feel Hashem there too.
Just to end off: When The Rebbe was five years old, an adult once told him to remove his yarmulka. The Rebbe replied, M’tur nit- we’re not allowed! The man answered, “I’ll take the aveira.” The Rebbe responded, “Who cares whose aveira it is?!”
That’s the difference. Is it about what your score is, or about what Hashem wants?January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2255655GadolhadorahParticipant
“How dare you write they “were mistaken in their novel ideologies”
Easy. We can have great respect for the daas torah of rabbonim from a wide range of hashkafos and can simultaneously disagree with the path they prescribe for their chassidim relative to the path we follow based on guidance from our own Rav. If you follow a Litvish hashkafah or even a Chassid from a different Chassidus, you don’t need to run to the Ohel to beg mechilah if you don’t agree with certain Chabad practices.January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2255674sechel83Participant
the rambam and mesilas yishorim both say that serving hashem to get gan eden and not go to gehenom is for ktanim and women. btw the mesilas yeshorims makor that that is the perpose of creation is a eitz chayim for all those against kabalah. dirah bitachtonim is niglah – medrash.
i dont understand why people are arguing about the rebbe being a tzadik. if you think not chas visholem. 1) you automaticly accuse all other gedolim (reb moshe feinstein, r’ shlome zalman aurbach, r’ shmuel vosner etc (a quick google search will show you all the letters how they referred to the rebbe)
the only ones against the rebbe were those against chassidus and the baal shem tov. read history, same complaints as those times (yes atzmus umehus in a guf, etc. same old stuff (its just the words of a zohan and yerushalmi) and the alter rebbe explains it in tanya igeres hakodesh 22January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2255679
> may want to think about visiting their kevarim
Dont know what LR would think of that, but my guess – r Soloveichik would not approve.. a more sure tikun would be to read seforim by these Rabonim and quote them here.January 23, 2024 2:07 am at 2:07 am #2255681
Avira> their novel ideologies.
We need to admit that new circumstances usually require new approaches, not necessarily ideologies. And people often do not know in advance what will work.
I re-re recenty in a row Chofetz Chaim and r Soloveichik letters. Comparison is a little unfair – former are from 1920-30s, latter – 40-50s, but Chofetz Chaim letters are a cry in the wilderness when things are getting worse every year in Poland, he repeats – dont send kids to anti-religious schools, have at least one kosher cheder in town … he is not even mentioning Bais Yaakov that he endorsed, while r Soloveichik proposes a very specific training system for rabbis, streamlined to mass-produce rabbis that could lead American Orthodox communities. We can argue whether his plan was implemented and to what success, but it was a well defined plan _novel _ to address a real problem.January 23, 2024 6:18 am at 6:18 am #2255725
Agreed GDH. Say someone is a follower of R’ YB Soloveitchik, and is discussing sending their child to college. I could vehemently disagree and think it’sa bad idea based on my chinuch, and I would quote The Rebbe, and show what happens to many who attend college etc. But ultimately, if this person decides to send their Rav’s derech and send their kid, I respect that. And I would never say things like, “When I see rabbi Jb’s musings, I realize more and more how off he is hashkafically.” Such a statement is pure chutzpah and against kovod HaTorah.
Especially within Chabad, a maamar (and hour much more so bosi lgani) was literally gilui Elokus, Shechina midaberes mtoch grono shel Moshe- The extension of Moishe in our generation.
The Rebbe took the saying of a maamar very seriously and would only say it on special occasions, after the hachana niggun, in all due seriousness, holding onto the tablecloth like his predecessors, so he would stay in this world etc. Quoting from all over Torah, both nigle and nistar.
(Sometimes, The Rebbe would ask for the tapes and express surprise at things he had said- in the moment he was just a conduit.)
This imagery, and the disrespect spoken is jarring. I don’t even think it reflects on The Rebbe, but rather on the persons attitude towards his own Torah leaders. I don’t take it personally anymore. Nevertheless, there’s a chiyuv to protest when the honor of Torah is trampled, so I did.January 23, 2024 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #2255819
Aaq, you’re conflating new ideologies with new solutions.
I have no issue with new solutions. Gedolim instituted them throughout history, including bais yaakov, kollel, requiring kabalah for shechitah, cherem rabbeinu gershon, and many others.
The issue is in ideology. Bais yaakov did not come and say “the mesorah is that girls learning Torah isn’t so important, but WE say it is” rather, they said “we need to address the problem of girls not having strong yiddishkeit, because the home isn’t enough anymore”
Rabbeinu gershom didn’t say “the Torah says it’s fine to have multiple wives but WE say it isn’t” rather, he said times are different and it is no longer feasible, people are irresponsible etc..
But rabbi kook, rabbi yoshe ber and the Lubavitcher rebbe changed ideologies, and the former 2 added in blatantly non jewish ideologies into their judaism, making what reb elchonom succinctly called “judaism mixed with avodah zara”
This isn’t a regular machlokes, it’s one side calling the other invalid, because they admittedly, openly grafted on non Jewish philosophy into Torah.
The Lubavitcher rebbe, did not openly inject outside ideologies, but his novel ideas are outside the mesorah – we don’t find them in any chasidishe group, including chabad, before he took over.January 23, 2024 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #2255820GadolHadofiParticipant
“If you follow a Litvish hashkafah or even a Chassid from a different Chassidus, you don’t need to run to the Ohel to beg mechilah if you don’t agree with certain Chabad practices.”
If one disagrees with certain viewpoints of Gedolim, it’s fine to respectfully say “my Rabbeim held otherwise” or “that’s not my mesorah”. For a little pisher to write that they “were mistaken in their novel ideologies”, that’s unmitigated gall and obligates a visit to kevarim.January 23, 2024 11:11 pm at 11:11 pm #2255911
CS, many people simply pretend to respect Torah leaders, while in reality simply respecting just the leaders who happen to conform to that person’s views. For example, YWN front page refers to brachot for tzahal by a respected Sephardi Rav. How many people will now consider such brachot acceptable? Not holding my breath.January 24, 2024 12:45 pm at 12:45 pm #2255988
“The Lubavitcher rebbe, did not openly inject outside ideologies, but his novel ideas are outside the mesorah – we don’t find them in any chasidishe group, including chabad, before he took over.”
A) you say they’re non Jewish but then say they’re just novel. Novel doesn’t mean non Jewish- The Rebbe was very passionate about keeping our heads free of non Jewish ideologies.
Secondly, I’m curious if you can quote any sicha where The Rebbe made up completely new ideas with no source. Or is this another complete slander of a Tzadik?
Gadol hadofi- exactly!
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