Question on R Miller (maybe joe will answer)

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  • #1579842

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    There were these pamphlets in shul today from toras avigdor on this week’s parsha and in it he talks about doing a mitzvah l’mafreiah and he brings an example of a bris and says that in order to get a zechus for the milah you have to think now that you’re happy you got a bris, to counteract the being upset as a baby

    Now for the question

    Why is this so, why isn’t just not being moshech b’milah showing that you want the milah and additionally you kicked and screamed when you’re a kattan and had no idea what was happening (except that it hurt)

    I hope my question is clear enough

    #1580128

    1
    Participant

    Do you really want to know?

    #1580129

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    The מלא הרועים on סוגיות מצות צריכות כוונה ס’ק ט says that a mitzva like milah where the result is the mitzva kavonoh does not matter. That is why by tzadakah kavonoh does not matter and he can give it in order that his son should live long, as long as the mitzva is done properly by a Jew.

    #1580174

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Being מושך בערלתו is quite a drastic step. Not doing do doesn’t prove you’re happy with the מילה.

    I’ll give you an example. You go to buy a used car. You find one that’s affordable to you, large enough for your family, and the model you want, with low mileage.

    The only problem is, it’s green, and you really don’t like green.

    You’ve checked four dealers, and nobody else has the model you want with the other factors that make you want this one. So you go ahead and buy it. It doesn’t prove that you like green, it just proves that you don’t hate it enough to spend the extra effort, time and/or money to find the car you want in a different color.

    #1580197

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    1,

    Yes I do

    Dy,

    Right and therefore you don’t regret buying it so it shouldn’t make you lose the mitzvah

    #1580227

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You don’t like the color. You just don’t bother getting it painted.

    #1580264

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    I don’t care that I have a bris your guy cares that the car is green he’s just too lazy or cheap to change the color

    #1580276

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Someone could be upset that he has a bris but be too lazy or cheap to undo it.

    #1580288

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    So if that’s the case then he has charata on the bris

    R avigdor Miller is saying even if you don’t have charata since you were kicking and screaming when you were a baby you need a positive charata to undo that, I’m asking why is that so?

    #1580297

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You asked, “why isn’t just not being moshech b’milah showing that you want the milah?”.

    Is that part answered to your satisfaction?

    #1580356

    Haimy
    Participant

    You’re taking Rav Miller too literal. This concept is mentioned in earlier sources (possibly chasam sofer). Of course, the mitzva is accomplished without the daas of the baby, however, we add to the shleimus of the mitzva by expressing our happiness later for it. After all, according to some opinions the mitzvah continues throughout a person’s lifetime.

    #1580622

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Dy,

    I guess so (being indifferent doesn’t mean that you want it)

    Haimy

    If someone takes off maaser for you without your knowledge and you don’t complain about it you get the mitzvah

    The same should apply here

    #1580629

    yitzyk
    Participant

    I think it is perfectly logical.

    If you do nothing to actually counter-act the Bris, you are Yotzeh having a Bris and aren’t Chayav Kores.

    But if you expect the huge rewards that come with having a bris – which you did nothing to get and in fact seemed to show displeasure, you have to show satisfaction and acknowledge your consent.

    #1580652

    Meno
    Participant

    If someone takes off maaser for you without your knowledge and you don’t complain about it you get the mitzvah

    What does “get the mitzvah” mean?

    #1580685

    Haimy
    Participant

    Just like a person can lose the reward for doing a mitzvah by later regretting doing it, so too we can enhance a mitzva later by feeling happy for doing it. A mitzvah is a live reality which can be affected even after the act of performance as well as before.

    #1580704

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Yitzy,

    Exactly, however R Miller disagrees

    Meno,

    The mitzvah of maaser was fulfilled

    Haimy,

    But you aren’t regretting it now and when you were a baby you didn’t have daas

    #1580705

    Joseph
    Participant

    What’s the source that you lose a mitzvah if you later regret having done it?

    #1580720

    Meno
    Participant

    however R Miller disagrees

    R’Miller holds you would get kareis if you’re not happy you got a bris?

    #1580727

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    To lose a mitzva when you regret it afterwards is if the mitzva is the maasei hamitzva but if the result or tachlis is the mitzva then you still have the mitzva afterwards regardless if you regret it or not.

    #1580731

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    מושך בערלתו he is physically undoing the mitzva, whereas not being happy might not be nice, but he does not physically undo the mitzva.

    #1580839

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Joe,

    Rabbi Miller brings the Gemara from kiddishin 40b

    Meno,

    This is word for word from the pamphlet “and it’s not just any mitzvah that you protested against. You have to know that the mitzvah of milah is one of only two mitzvos in the Torah for which you get kareis for not doing. It’s a very important mitzvas asei if he refuses to let himself be gemalt then he’s chayav kareis and hereyou were refusing it, you didn’t want any part of it

    #1580850

    Reb Eliezer
    Participant

    A goyish baby can be converted but he can refuse and regret the conversion when he becomes bar mitzva except if he practices yiddishkeit. If he refuses, the conversion is botel retroactively but I have never heard that the milah gets invalidated on a jewish baby.

    #1580887

    ☕️coffee addict
    Participant

    Laskern,

    Not the milah the zechus of the milah because it was unwillingly

    #1583383

    Meno
    Participant

    coffee addict,

    This is word for word from the pamphlet “and it’s not just any mitzvah that you protested against. You have to know that the mitzvah of milah is one of only two mitzvos in the Torah for which you get kareis for not doing. It’s a very important mitzvas asei if he refuses to let himself be gemalt then he’s chayav kareis and hereyou were refusing it, you didn’t want any part of it

    Honestly I have no idea what that last sentence means (it seems to be missing some important punctuation/words), but I’m pretty sure it doesn’t say that you get kareis for regretting having had a bris milah.

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