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I recently see more and more letters about chumaras in chalav stam that make zero sense to me.
For example, some people are questioning if the new Reeses that’s parave and OU without the D ever gets mixed up with the cholov stam?
I have also heard people nervous about buying a coffee at Dunkin that has chlov yisroel milk. They argue if there is no mashgiach the goysha workers could mix in chalav stam one day.
So I need to remind everyone that chalac stam isn’t treif. R Moshe zl allowed it and R aron served it in Lakewood even after he was able to get chalav yisroel. Many chashuva communities still eat chalav stam.. Now maybe you are a ben torah who R moshe says should be machmir. Or maybe you are chasidish and never went with R moshe. Ok thats all fine. But you can’t really think so many jews are eating trief. So why would you need to be machmir on a small distanced “chahsash” because there is a remote possiiblity that maybe you’ll be eating chalav stam? Its not the same as say someone who doesn’t eat strawberries even washed because maybe they will eat a bug. In that case even if there are those that say if its seen by the eye its fine or that we could clean it good, I can here an idea to be careful. Because in case those shitas are incorrect, you ate bugs which is torah issur. But in this case even if something happens you ate chalav stam. nu nu that ain’t a torah issur.
so why the obessive chumaras? Its not good to be extra frumChaim,
you mean, of course, chalav hacompanies, as R Moshe defined it, not chalav stam that your neighbor milked himself. And the companies will lose their business from USDA supervision if they were to put something funny there. For example, you would not rely on chalav hacompanies in China. They had cases there where a supplier put some cheap additives to baby milk; babies died; and parents came to kill suppliers …But you are right, I think most people just feel good for being more machmir, especially when you don’t have complete information about the complicated food processing chain. I listened recently to an expert and he said – some people are afraid that coffee-making equipment will be washed with treif. Don’t worry – I investigated that and they do not wash it at all. So, if you are ok with that, go ahead and drink! ๐
There are two possible remedies:
1) suggest them to think of chumros that are more difficult and also lead to some conequences to them and to other people – for example: be less angry, be more forgiving to other people in business, spend more time with kids, let other drivers cut in front of you …2) study the sugya – we are more machmir in sakana (such as snake poisoning the water) v issurim. So, let them ponder – are they more careful crossing the street than choosing a donut?
Rav Ahron never served it in Lakewood.
According to those who disagree with Rav Moshe, cholov stam is simply treif like cholov akum, no different than unsupervised milk from China or Vietnam.
The OP did not accurately reflect these points above.
You’re words make sense ( ืืื ืืืืจืื ืืืืจื ืืืืืจื)all the way till the end where you say “it’s not good to be extra frum” without explaining.
@Chaim87
“So I need to remind everyone that chalac stam isnโt treif. R Moshe zl allowed it and R aron served it in Lakewood even after he was able to get chalav yisroel. Many chashuva communities still eat chalav stam.”Do you really want that, in heaven, other people’s sins or shortcomings would be attributed to you, CH”V?
Rav Moshe has a teshuva specifying in what circumstances it would be permitted, not that he “allowed it” just like that.
UJM pointed out that you are flat-out wrong about your contention regarding Rav Aharon.
And which are those many “chashuva communities” that still do so and, more importantly, why and under whose direction?This isn’t a question of being “extra frum” – it’s a question of going against halacha.
We have a rule that we don’t make a gezeirah on a gezeirah. This is already brought down in the Gemara. The issur of Chalav Stam is itself a gezeirah. R’ Moshe (among others) famously gave a hetter for it in certain places, but let’s be clear – even if you don’t agree with R’ Moshe, it’s not the same as drinking something that is clearly treif. It was a gezeirah.
To add another gezeirah, to refrain from pareve Reese’s, because you may come to eat chalav stam, is a gezeirah on a gezeirah, and we do not do that. So to put such a rule in place goes against halacha.if I remember correctly, Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L said Cholov Stam is allowed only when there’s no cholov yisroel
yakovBA06: R’ Moshe’s original teshuva on the issue stated that it’s allowed, without any limits on it. Later, after R’ Moshe had passed away, a letter was shared where he said that it should only be used if chalav Yisrael wasn’t available.
R’ Moshe was very careful about which shailos u’teshuvos he included in the Igros, as he wanted only the ones that were generally applicable, not the ones that were for a specific case.
In the case of the letter about chalav stam, I believe it was written to a Rosh Yeshiva, who had asked about using chalav stam in the yeshiva, to save on costs. R’ Moshe felt that a yeshiva should be machmir, and serve chalav Yisrael. This was not meant for the general public.First of all, in the beginning lakewood did serve what is called in the vernacular Cholv Stam. When he was made aware of the strong feelings of the bochurim regarding using the heter, he gave reshus to switch to Cholov Yisroel. With regards to the Tshuvos of Rav Moshe, it was not a kulah for rare situations. This I was told personally by both of his sons). What he did hold was that there is room to be machmir, and it is not just some crazy chumrah that some fanatics have. He also held that there is a reason that schools should serve cholov yisroel. To teach the children that it is worthwhile to spend money on keeping a chumrah (poor wording, just can’t think of a better one). With regard to the reese’s controversy, Idon’t see anything wrong with not eating the pareve version because i am concerned that I/my family will get confused. this is especially true because as of right now the Pareve version is not so well known and as readily available.
eddie > First of all, in the beginning lakewood did serve what is called in the vernacular Cholv Stam. When he was made aware of the strong feelings of the bochurim regarding using the heter,
I don’t think this is the right expression. R Moshe was not unique in allowing chalav companies, he was simple unique in statute among those who did. So, it is not necessarily that other rabbonim “relied on rav Moshe’s heter” which creates an impression that status quo in America was CY and then R Moshe permit it. This can look indeed so from the point of view who just arrived from places they were machmir.
DaMoshe,
I think there is also a private teshuva to a hospital, where R Moshe says they should use CY. If I recall correctly, both for some general consideration, but also because people who eat only CY have a status of neder and this should be respected.I do not have any issue., but I do believe that anyone has the right to be as careful as they want on any issue. I know someone who wont eat a certain type of food because they once ate it and it tasted spoiled. They are entitled to their “caution.” They just shouldn’t put it on others. I know people that won’t eat Baco’s (imitation bacon chips), not because they may get mixed up, but because it “feels wrong”. They are entitled. Just don’t come out with an issur, (unless it is Maris Ayin, I am not paskening).
@Chaim 87,
whether Reb Ahron did or did not serve it, what exactly were the terms outlined in Reb Moshes Tshuvah is all irrelevant to the core point you mentioned.
Firstly the way you described the issues and chumrot at hand is a bit misleading, and not representative of what they really are.
But you forget the main point: Yes chumrot can sometimes be detrimental to yiddishkeit DEPENDING how it is done and understood, but for you to go blast the people that practice those chumrot like that was a bit much. Nobody talks about paseling whole chunks of klal yisrael because of their standards of kashrut (as long as it is in line with a recognised TORAH AUTHORITY), only you are. If they want to take on a certain chumrah for themselves, or even just be makpid on themselves, that’s totally fine, the only reason someone would get angry and annoyed by such a person, is because as it says in the gemara, the hatred from the am ha’aretz to the talmid chacham is worse than from a goy to a Jew, and look at the meforshim, the reason this is, is because the am ha’aretz can’t sit back and watch someone else acting more frum or on a higher level than themselves, they just can’t take it, and from your language, that’s what it seems to me is your case, however correct me if i am wrong!Without disputing any of the previous posters, as a matter of fact, does anyone have any knowledge of milk from non-kosher animals being available in the U.S.? I know that in North Africa and the Middle East, camel’s milk is consumed, although it is a specialty, but as far as I know, commercially available milk (chalav hacomanies) in the U.S. is exclusively cow’s milk. Goat’s milk is available from a few specialty sellers but, of course, goat’s milk is kosher too.
pure, you seem to be self-contradictory – you both acknowledge that chumros can be detrtimental and they say “it is fine’.
While there are certainly people who just dont like someone more observant, as you sare saying, I don’t think Chaim is that.
My personal opinion – chumra movement helped create great large communities, giving people a stimulus to be more observant – but by now chumros are taking the mental space of harder things, like middos and chesed, and lead to looking down and outright rejection of people who are not following those cbumros, or follow different chumros … and we need to deal with that
@chaim87 why wouldn’t we be? or at least should be. al pi halocho a lot of things are permitted, does that mean we should still do it? / does that mean that we still do it? the reason we have all these chumros especially on kashrus is for the betterment of ourselves, kashrus is a very serious inyan, yes technically its allowed to eat cholov stam but if there’s options to eat the much safer option, from people who we know we can trust, and from safe sources, what is the excuse that 1 “needs” to say they’d pick cholov stam over cholov yisroel? because it tastes better? A lot of treife food probably tastes great, that’s not an excuse to go out and eat it. I’m aware cholov stam is not treif, but it’s a higher likely hood that there might be something treif inside even in the small chance, vs 100% verified cholov yisroel. Maybe the same issue could be said for some cholov yisroel products, but that depends on the which hechsherim the person decides to go with. This is part of the reason people try their best to find the best hechsherim for certain foods, meat, oil, dairy etc, because we want to make sure we aren’t consuming even the slightest bit of treif. so many bad things happen when a yid consumes treife food, it effects the neshomo and because of that it effects the body, etc. All im saying is that in today’s day and age, there’s not an excuse to not get cholov yisroel since the options are there now, at least in most places with large jewish communities. not judging anybody I hope that’s not how I’m coming off, just making a point. and one last thing, do you think Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L himself ate and drank cholov stam? Also concering the letter, this is what it says.”
Rabbi Chaim Dalfin, author of the new book Chabad and Gedoloim, provided a copy of the letter to COLlive.com with the translation to English:
5 Mar-Cheshvan, 5724
Although there are halachic reasons to allow drinking [non-Cholov Yisroel] milk produced by companies [under government supervision], obviously this leniency only applies in places where one cannot obtain Cholov Yisroel milk, supervised by G-d-fearing rabbonim. However, in places where such milk is available, one must be strict and only drink supervised milk. The same applies to other dairy products.
It is especially important to be careful about this if one is accustomed to only consume supervised dairy products at home. In such a case, [drinking non-Cholov-Yisroel milk] may involve violating a neder [vow].
Therefore, hospitals that provide kosher food should do whatever they can to obtain dairy products under rabbinic supervision, for here in New York there is no difficulty involved in doing so. At the very least, they should obtain supervised dairy products for those patients who only eat Cholov Yisroel at home, and they should not force them, chas veshalom, to eat what they are careful not to eat.
[Signed] Moshe Feinstein
https://collive.com/groundbreaking-letter-by-rav-feinstein-restricts-cholov-stam/There is a weekly article in the circle on kashrus and this week it talks about chocolate (and one part is dairy and pareve chocolate using the same vat and not being able to use hot water in a vat because it messes it up so some kashrus organizations permit using the hot cocoa)
This might be a problem if one strictly keeps chalav yisrael
yaakov,
I think you have good arguments that CY is easy to obtain in large Jewish communities. I am also sympathetic to being more careful in mitzvos.Still, there are costs and compromises this causes. Count all funds spent on obtaining “frummer” food. If you work, as Chofetz Chaim said explaining why he did not have a certain sefer at home: gelt is tzeit, and tzeit is Toirah! How more you would be able to learn? How more time you could spend learning with your children? These are core Torah mitzvos. If you are a gvir, you probably spend more – and you could have given more tzedokah. If you learn when your in-laws or gevirim support you – you could decrease time you depend on tzedokah. If you, H’V, obtain government programs despite being able to work – you can decrease amount of geneiva.
As I mentioned above a simple way to see how balanced you are – are you more machmir in sakanah than in issurim? Do you spend more effort making sure you don’t drive in a risky manner than on buying super-frum foods?
yakov,
As I noted earlier, R’ Moshe zt”l was very selective about which letters he included in the Igros – it was only those he felt were applicable to the general public. There were plenty of responsa from him that differed from what was published in the Igros, because the cases they applied to were not, in his opinion, applicable to everyone.
Since the teshuvos in the Igros are the ones that permit it, without any caveats, that is the psak for the general public.
R’ Dovid Feinstein zt”l, who was generally accepted as having the best understanding of what his father intended, said that R’ Moshe permitted chalav stam l’chatchilah. R’ Dovid zt”l even ate/drank it himself.@Always_Ask_Questions
While it may be more expensive to buy cholov yisroel products, I’d argue most people who buy cholov yisroel products aren’t gvirim. Also I don’t think that cholov yisroel is “frummer”, pretty much all gdolim say not to consume cholov akum, Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L himself also wouldn’t eat cholov akum even during the time when it was much harder to find in America. The consenquences of eating or drinking anything treif are massive both spiritually and physically as I said above. It’s also important to note Reb Moshe Feinstein ZT”L said only in America is it considered ok, and it is a heter for those who couldn’t find, otherwise 1 shouldn’t go near anything cholov stam. You make a good point on the bottom asking about how balanced someone is and what are they are machmir on, I think everybody has their own thing that they’re more machmir on, some it may be music, some may be how they talk, or what they’re around, etc. That being said, kashrus is something that everybody should be machmir on (if they can). Another point about cholov yisroel products being more expensive, it’s not cheap to be a Yid, sometimes we have to do more to be careful, take care of whole families, even when the situation is hard, HKB”H only asks of us to do what we can and to the best of our abilities, sometimes it’s easier said than done, but sometimes we limit ourselves and we don’t even realize it.Chaim,
I think some groups treat non-CY dishes as treif, that is they’ll not eat from those when being a guest. I never tried to make anyone uncomfortable, so just gave them fruit on paper plates. You can say that this is beyond halokha, but then you can also say that this is their neder and it is legit, even if possibly misguided. One can take a neder not to eat apples and this will be ok, except doctors not going away.I agree on R Moshe. People understandably quote him, but the impression becomes as R Moshe made up this tremendous kulah. It might have looked this way for those who just came off the boat from a CY country, but it was not so for America where CY was not available exactly because it was not followed… chicken and egg … And, of course, his teshuva is for US both because this is where he was and because USDA is specific to US. Nobody would trust Chinese or Russian government inspections.
yakov,
I don’t think we disagree much. I do acknowledge that CY makes sense where it is widely available. But even if I were to live in such a place, I would not make a neder – I may move again or travel, and why take a neder for no reason. I would buy from my closest evergreen, but maybe go for a dunkin donuts once a year to confirm that I did not take the neder.Here is I found matzav quoting a sefer by R Dovid Feinstein [who seemed to be raised by Mrs. Feinstein on cholav stam without visible hesronos in ruchniyus]:
There is no issur of cholov stam meiโikkar dedina.
If it is just as easy to get cholov Yisroel, get cholov Yisroel.
The money factor is to be judged on a case by case basis.
Using cholov Yisroel when convenient only is not a stirah.
Using cholov Yisroel for milk but not ice cream is not a stirah.I see also this testimony: R’ Dovid Feinstein, for sure, held that way, and would himself stock the vending machine in his yeshiva with cholov-stam chocolate. .. my father saw it when he was learning there
yakov> . The consenquences of eating or drinking anything treif are massive both spiritually and physically as I said above. … , kashrus is something that everybody should be machmir on (if they can). Another point about cholov yisroel products being more expensive, itโs not cheap to be a Yid,
As I said, I understand this sentiment and how it makes people feel good and strong. We have this idea for times of shemad – that we defend any minhag. There is a feeling (and surely there was such a feeling among post-WW2 rabbonim) that we live in the time of aggressive Esav – and friendly Esav in IS is even more dangerous than Nazi or Soviet one in terms of attracting Jews to assimilation. So, from this point of view, you should not trust any american heksher and go to your local yoreh shamayim shoychet and milkman.
At the same time, from purely halahkic POV – there are limits. I quoted above “chamira sakonah me issura”, I am not sure what you thinkk about it.
I also saw, I think in R Chaim Mintz recent sefer, quoting R Moshe – someone asked whether they need to check whether a local Jewish store properly sold chametz for Pesach (presumably, he had reasons to doubt). R Moshe said that he does not have to spend money on a midrabonan sofek and time to make calls is also money.R Moshe also identified the “hard to be a Jew” attitude of parents as a reason younger people were abandoning Judaism. This is not so, or not to that degree, in current “frum” communities, but still may be an issue.
There are also other related issues – there are lots of healthy milk-based products. I am not sure about same for all CY. It is for sure so away from major centers, not sure about in-town, but I suspect so too. Maybe in-towners are not makpid on healthy food, which would be a bigger problem than CY.
There is also an issue of being able to enjoy nice ice-cream with kids, whether at home or on the way to Catskills, or have ice-cream or simchas with non-CY relatives and friends, strengthening Achdus . Again, in some enclaves, they don’t know outsiders…
For an excellent summary of different angles of this discussion, the CRC has a great article: https://consumer.crckosher.org/publications/camels-cows-and-chalav-certification/
It’s worth noting what they write about cheese, as opposed to milk – that R’ Moshe zt”l held that hard cheese is far more lenient than milk and doesn’t need to be chalav Yisrael, and that soft cheese was never even included in the gezeirah to begin with!there is no treifous in chalav aku”m nowadays, just ask R’ Yudel Shain
@chaim87 why don’t you use halachic terms like “ein gozrin gezeira l’gezeira” to make life much easier, and for the practical reason of the convo getting derailed?
DaMoshe, thanks for the references, now I am going to have nightmares about raw donkey milk …
Note that the article is still based on the notion that R Moshe is the only source of the kulah, while referencing that “many” Jews in US consumed chalav stam and a quick reference to R Henkin when discussing cheeses.
It is true that early America has bad reputation for assimilation, but maybe we should acknowledge history and treat cholov stam – as well as college – as “minhag hamedinah” that was accepted by American Jews early on and those who arrived later should follow the minhag of the country they came to.
@@Always_Ask_Questions,
Maybe my wording was a bit confusing, but your reply is basically what I meant:
Whilst there is always room for chumrot, that should be a personal choice based on research into a topic AND ULTIMATELY discussing it with a Torah authority, not something that takes away from other areas of the Torah which are not just chumrot but rather actual core mitzvot.Interesting point you mentioned about chumrot building large communities, maybe maybe not, I am not too sure the Gedolim that built those communities would have built their communities on/around chumrot (unless you are reffering to say Brisk which is an entire topic in itself and I would say the yotzeh min haklal from this discussion).
Thanks for pointing out your comment!Here’s another great article, where R’ Belsky gave a new opinion on the matter – he gave a heter that was different than R’ Moshe’s!
https://oukosher.org/blog/consumer-kosher/rav-moshe-ztls-heter-of-cholov-stam-revisited/pure, maybe the issue is this – gemora in Bava Kamma suggest 3 ways of becoming a chosid – nezikin (that was the starting point of the discussion – discussing tzadikim who were careful discarding sharp objects far away or in the river; brochos; or avos (middos).
Most popular chumros seem to be in the area of brochos (although very loosely – maybe brochos talk about direct communication to Hashem), while ignoring others. I asked a charedi rav (who is careful on all 3 areas) why such focus, and he suggested – without brochos/kahsrus/beged you are not even Jewish, but you are kind of “Jewish” without middos… I think he describes the sentiment correctly. And it conveys some truth, but it created great distortions …
I think I already told here a story how a T’Ch mentioned in the introduction of his class to about 50 T’Ch that “brochos is a way to become a T’Ch” – basically discarding the rest of the gemorah. I looked around – and nobody was bothered. I later asked my Rav whether this is a kosher way to use gemorahs and he responded “why you did not ask the speaker?!”. I know I am prone to disrupting things, it is the first time my Rav encouraged me to go further (: … Of course, I wanted to ask, but could not find a private moment with the speaker and did not want embarrass him in public. It sounds like my rav thought that it was ok to do that.
from R Chaim Mintz sefer – R Ruderman said this story: his in-laws were well off, had a fancy house, and were often hosting guests. One visiting Rav asked for natilas yadaim near his bed, ended up spilling water on the expensive carpet. When R Boruch Ber visiting he said not to give him natilas yaddayim as he was afraid to ruin the carpets. So, asked R Ruderman, who is more “frum” – that rav or R Boruch Ber?
[parenthetically, LH rules ruin the question, of course – when one rav is named and another is not. Should have omitted both names for those not sure of the answer :]
This possibly served as a source of R Ruderman not having natilas yadayim in yeshiva rooms. When visiting Ponevezh Rav asked about it, he explained that he is careful on geneivah – he does not want students to ruin the building.
Here’s the relevant Igros Moshe.
ืืขื ืื ืืื ืืงืืืคืื ืืขืก ืฉืืืืื ืชื ื.
ื”ื ืกืืื ืชืฉื”ื. ืืข”ื ืืืืื ืืจื”ื ืืืจ”ืจ ืืืืื ืืืง ืฉืืื”ื.
ืืืืืจ ืืืื ืฉื ืืงืืืคืื ืืขืก ืืืืื ืชื ื ืืฉืจ ืืฉ ืคืงืื ืืืืฉืื ืืื ืืขืจืื ืืื ืืืื ืืืื ืืขื ืฉื ืืื ืืกืืืจื ืืช ืืขืกืง ืฉืืื ืฉืืื ืืืื ืืืจืชืชื ืืืขืจื ืืฉ ืืขื ืืืื ืืืชืืจ ืืฃ ืืื ืฉืืืช ืืคืจ”ื ืืฉืื ืืืขืืงืจ ืืืืืขื ืืจืืจื ืืื ืืจืืื ืืืฉ ืืื ืืฉืืืขืืช ืืฃ ื”ื ืื ืืขืืืช ืืืืื. ืืืืืื ืืื ืืืชื ืืชืืก’ ืืืืืช ืืฃ ื”ื ืืฉื ืืฉ ืืคืจืฉืื ืื ืืืื ืจืืืืช ื”ื ืืืืืืช ืืจ ืขืืื ืฉื. ืืืื ืืืจ ืื ื ืกืืื ืฉืืฆืื ื ืืืจืื ืืงืืืืช. ืืืฃ ืืขืื ืงืืืื ืืงืืืืฉืื ืฉืืฃ ืฉืื ืจืื ืืื ืืืืื ืืื ืืจืื ืืืืื ืืืฉ ืื ืขืฉืืช ื”ื ืืืืจื ืืฃ ืืืืื ืืืชื ืืืื ืขืืื ืืืจ ืื”ื ืืฉืื ืืชืคืืก ืื ืงืืืืฉืื ืืืจืื. ืืืืชืจ ืืื ืืืื ื ืืืฃ ืื ื ืกืืื ืคืืืชื ืืื ืืื ืืืืงื ืืื ืืื ืขืืฉื ืืขืืืชื ืืขืืืช ืื ืืช ืฉืืื ืืจืืื ืืืฉ ืื ืืฉื ืืืื ืขืืื ืืงืืืื ืืฃ ืืงืืื ืืขื ืื ืฉืื ืืืฆืจืืื ืื ืืืฉื ื ืืงืื ื ืฉืื ืืืื ื ืืืืืืื ืื ืืกืช ืืฉื ื ืืืชืืืืช ืืฃ ืข”ื ืืฉืืืื ืื ืคืืื ืืื ืืฉืื ืฉืืื ืืื ืืืืข ืฉืืื ืงืืืืฉื ืงืื ื ืืืื ืืข”ื ืงืืืืฉืื ืืจืืฉืื ืื ืืืขื ืขืืื ืฉื, ืืฃ ืฉืืื ืืืขื ืืืืช ืื ืืช ืืื ืจืง ืืจืื ืื ”ื ืื”ื ื ืืฉืื ืืืืขื ืื ืืจืืื ืืืฃ ืฉืฆืจืืืื ืื ื ืืขืื ืืืจ ืืืื ืจืง ืืืืขื ืืื ืื ืจืืื ื ืจืง ืืืื ืืืจื ืืื ืขืื ืชืืชื ืฉืื ืจืง ืืืืขืืช ืฉืืฃ ืฉืกืืืจ ืืื ืืืืข ืฉืืื ืงืืืืฉื ืงืื ื ืืืื ืืืื ืืืื ืืขืื ืฉืืื ืืืืขืื ืื ืืืืืื ืืืื ืืืืื ื”ื ืฉืกืืืจ ืืืื ืืื ืืืืข ืขืืื ืืชืืก’ ืืืืื ืืฃ ื”ื ืืฉืื ืฉืืื ืืืืจ ืฉืชืืื ืคืืืืชืชื ืจืืืงื ืื ื”ื ืืฆื ืืจืื ืืืืืขืื ืฉืืื ืงืืืืฉื ืงืื ื ืืืื ืืืจืื ืฉืืื ืืืขืืื ืืืืช ืื ืืช ืืืจืื ืฉืืืืื ืืฉ ืื ืืืื ืืฃ ืฉืืืื ื’ ืืขืืืื ืื ืืื ืฉืืฃ ืื ื ืืื ืืืขืื ืืื ืื ืืื ืงืืืืฉืื ื”ื ื ืืฉื ืืจื ืืขืืื ืืงืืืื ืืืฉ ืฉืืขืื ืืฉื ืงืืืืฉืื ืืฃ ืืงืืื ืฉืื ืืชืคืกื ืงืืืืฉื ืืฉื ื ืืื ืฉืืืื ืืืื ืืขืฆื ืืืื ืืืืขืื ืืืื ืืืฉ ืืืืืขื ืืื ืจืืื ืืืฉ.
ืืืฉ ืืืืขื ืฉืืฃ ืื ืคืฉืืช ื ืืฉื ืจืื’ ืืืื ืืคืื ืขื ืฉืืจืื ืืืจื ืืื ืืคืื ืืฃ ืฉืืืืื ืืื ืจืง ืื ืืื ืืก ืืืืืื ืืฉืคืืคืจืช ืฉืื ืจืื ืื. ืืืฉืืข ืืจืฉ”ื ื”ื ืืฃ ืฆ”ื ืฉืืชื ืืื ืืืงืืงืชื ืชืืจื ืืืกืชืื ื”ื, ืืืื”ื ืืจืืฆื ืืฉืืจ ืืืชืืช ืื ืืื ืืืืืืื ืืืชื ืืจืง ืืื ืืคืื ืื ืืืงืืงืชื ืชืืจื ืืืกืชืื ืืืืืืืื ืืืชื ืืืชื ืืฃ ืฉืืื ื ืจืืื. ืื”ื ืฆืจืื ืืืืจ ืฉืืขืฆื ืืืืขื ืืื ืืจืืื ืื ืืืื ื ืคืฉืืช ืืืื ื ืืจืืื ืืื ืืคืื ืืจืง ืืฉืืจ ืืืชืืช ืืื ืืื”ื ืฉืื ืืืื ื ืข”ืค ืืืืขื ืืืื ืืื ืืคืื ืฉืืื ื ืืฆื ืฉืื ืืืจืื ืืขืืื ืืืืืชื ืืกืค”ืง ืืืืืช ืกืืืจ ืฉืืืื ืืืืืจืืื ืืืืจ ืืืื ืืคืื ื ืืจืืื ืข”ืค ืืืืขื ืื ืืืืช ืืื ืืื”ื ืื ืืขื ืื ืืืืขื ืื ืืื ืื ืืืืขื ืื ืืื ืืขืฆื ืืจืืื ืืื ืฉืืื ืืืืจ ืฉืืืจืื ืืืจื ืืื ืืคืื ืืื ืขื”ืค ืื ืจืื ืืืืื ืขืืื ืืื ืืืื ืฉืืขืฆื ืืื ืืจืืื ืืื ืืืจ ืจืง ืฉื ืชืืืฉ ืืื ืคืฉืืช ืื ืืืื ื ืข”ืค ืขืืืช ืืืืืขื ืืืื ืืคืื ืื ื ืชืืืฉ ืืขื ืื ืืืืขื ืื.
ืืืื ืืืื ืฉืืกืจื ืจืง ืืืืื ืขืื”ื ืืืื ืืฉืจืื ืจืืืื ืืฉ ืืืชืืจ ืื ืืืฉืจืื ืืืืขืื ืืืืขื ืืจืืจื ืืืื ืืจืืื. ืืื ืฉืื ืืขืจืื ืืขื ืฉื ืืืฆืืจืื ืืกืืืจ ืืขืกืง ืฉืืื ืฉืืื ืืจืืื ืฉื ืืื ืืืคืื ืืืืืฉืื ืืฉืืืช ืืืืื ืืื ืืืื ืืืืขื ืืจืืจื ืฉืืื ืืจืืื ืฉืื ืืื ืืืื ืืืกืืจื. ืืื ืืื ืื ืืื”ืข ืืืื ืืขื ืืืืืง ืืื ืืืื ืืจืืฆื ืืกืืื ืืืืงื ืืฉ ืื ืืขื ืืืื ืืจืฉืื ืืืื ืฉืืงืืืื ืืื ืืจืื ืื ”ื ืฉืืืจื ืชืืจื ืืื ืืจืื ืจืื ืื ืื”ื ืืืืจ ืฉืขืืฉืื ืฉืื ืืืื. ืืื ื”ื ืืืขืื ื ืคืฉ ืื ืืจืืื ืืืืืืจ ืืืื ืืื ืืฉืื ืืืืจื ืืื ืื ื ื ืืื ืืืืืืจ ืืขืฆืื ืืื ืื ืฉืจืืฆื ืืืงื ืืื ืขืืฉื ืืืื ื ืืืื ืืืืฉืืื ืืืืืื ืืืืกืืจืื.
ืืืื ืืื ื ืื ืืืืืืจ ืื ื ืืกืจ ืืืื ืื ืื ื’ ืคืขืืื ืชืืื ืื ืืืชื ืืืื ืชื ืืืืืืจ ืืฃ ืื ืืืื ืืื ืืืชืืจ ืื”ืฉ ืืืืข ืืขืฆืื ืฉืืฉ ืืืชืืจ ืื”ื ื ืื ืืืกืืจ ืืฉ ืขืืื ืืืกืืจ ื ืืจ ืื ืื ื”ืค ืืื ืื ืืืืืจ ืืฉืื ืฉืืื ืกืืืจ ืฉืืกืืจ ืืืื ื ืื ืืฃ ืจืง ืฉืืกืืจ ืืกืคืง ืืืฉื ืขื ืืืงืืืื ืฉืืืื ืืืขืื ืืืื ืื ืฉืืืื ืื ืืืืืืื ืืืืกืืจืื ืืื ืขืืื ืืื ื ืืจ ืืฆื ืื ืืื ืื”ืฆ ืืืชืจ. ืืื ื ื ืืืืื, ืืฉื ืคืืื ืฉืืืื.Read carefully.
He does not lay out specific circumstances. He says he himself is strict. He says those who keep cholov yisrael aren’t acting on Yuhara by doing so. You may want to pay attention to the fact that he points out that many Rabbonim drink cholov stam and that it is inappropriate to say they are just flagrantly violating a prohibition (and according to Pischei Teshuva, a Torah level oath for Bnei Ashkenaz). Most of this is an argument in favor of goverment oversight being treated as equivalent to imposing a level of fear consistent with a non-Jewish maidservant or non-Jew in general being scared of being caught mixing non-Kosher milk into Kosher milk as well as an argument that government oversight is acceptable as “Anan sahadei”.
You want opinions for a purely cholov yisrael position that totally invalidates cholov stam? Fine. Use Chasam Sofer, Pischei Teshuva, Chachmas Adam, Aruch Hashulchan and Chelkas Yaakov. Those opinions take a position that does not consider the statement in the Gemara that ืืืื ืืื ืงืื ืืื ืืื, ืืืจืชืืชื ืืืจืชืช ืืื ืืืขืจื ืืื, which is an accepted leniency requiring a precise definition – because there is a discussion in the various authorities regarding what consisutes a Jew supervising a non-Jew milking a kosher animal. They prohibit on the grounds of a concern that something non-kosher was mixed in and an argument that no one ever permitted it – which ignores the discussion of non-Kosher milk being more expensive than cow milk and that also being a cause for leniency (and the one specifically laid out by Pri Chadash). Pischei Teshuva calls it a Torah level oath upon Bnei Ashkenaz.
However, Chazon Ish (with some caveats) held more or less like the Pri Chadash who was lenient – although not for the same reason as Radbaz – who was also lenient, as was Kehillos Yaakov under certain circumstances (for weak Yeshiva bochurim and due to government oversight).
ZSK, note that Chasam sofer et al did not live in a modern state with strong consumer protection as R Moshe did. Anyone knows how did R Moshe (and his wife) hold before they came to US?
Also, does this teshuva imply that there is no need for hashgaha at all? I heard this privately some time ago about organic milk when it was relatively new and did not have hashgaha. This is not an issue in northeast and midwest USA, but might be an issue in the South and in Europe.
Also, when we look at Igros Moshe, we need o keep in mind that R Moshe was strategic in what he published and publicize.
From R Chaim Mintz:
1) R Moshe will not publish opinions that are very different from what others were holding (he would permit winding watch on shabbos “dont know why they are osrim”; allowed switching off gas on yom tov (He and Rebetzin came to Mintzes, and Rebetzin saw gas on and said “waste of money” and switched it off.)
2) In other cases, he private letters were specific to the recipient and were not included in igros. For example, there are milk-related teshuvos discovered later in private archives
3) he was always sensitive to the public to make sure they don’t misinterpret his behavior – refusing to sit at an only table with yashon, so that people will not decide that he holds by it. would not publicize his views on wills, so that people do not press beis din with his opinions
4) wanted to be accepted as a posek – starting growing payos because he was approached with many agunah shailohs after the war and he wanted people, incuding chassidim, to accept his psak.@AAQ –
1) Yes, and the Chasam Sofer was also ideologically opposed to any leniency in any pesak whatsoever. So his position makes sense.
2) Presumably like everyone else in eastern europe.
3) Based on what was written – and the argument that government oversight is sufficient to be considered ืืืจืชืืชื ืืืจืชืช, I would be inclined to say no.
4) I grew up in the south, but haven’t been there in nearly 20 years. I don’t remember or know what goes on now (I assume my home community is now big enough that they sell cholov yisrael), but we definitely drank and ate cholov stam products.
5) Re “there are milk-related teshuvos discovered later in private archives”: Yes, there are. And they are specific to that person, no one else. Igros Moshe is what he wanted published. The other letters were rulings for individuals that had no business seeing the light of day – especially because of individuals like certain posters here who look for those exact individual rulings to justify their own biases and ideological beliefs.ZSK> And they are specific to that person, no one else. Igros Moshe is what he wanted published.
I agree with that. You need to consider why private letters stayed private. But it is even more complicated – you need to consider why something was published. As I am reading R Mintz – R Moshe sometimes held positions that he did not publicize because he did not want to pasken against other respected rabbonim. Nevertheless, his views were authentic. We can learn both from these positions, and from his sensitivity to others (in one case, there was a sefer dedicated to destroying everything R Moshe wrote – and he refused to publish a response so that the author will not lose parnosa from selling his sefer).
In the south, most shopping is in walmarts. Often, same milk and yogurt as in midwest has no heksher on them. But not all is lost.
I was in one airport twice in a year and both times bumped into a visiting chassidishe Mashgiach!
Let’s look at the problem without historical biases.
Many issues in kashrus are based on logical analysis of possible causes and decisions made according to the highest probability. You find a needle in the animal, you reason – was it likely to come through the food pipe during lifetime and made it treifah, or did it come through the skin or the schohet dropped it in. You look at the presence of drops of blood from possible foodpipe puncture while alive. This is not a high-tech foolproof, but pretty reasonable procedure. Let’s applies it to chalav companies:
A farm and a bottling plant are industrial operations. Cows in, milk out. Multiple employees and subcontractors are involved. Is there cheaper than kosher milk on the market that someone could use? Would owners risk losing their whole business to USDA inspectors? Would individual workers be able to smuggle milk from camels they secretly raise at home into the facility? How would you feed camels in the Wisconsin winter? Is there one known case of any of these happening?
If you are so paranoid, I would suggest to worry about meat. A lot of profit can be gained by substituting treif and neveila for kosher. Can be done at a factory. Can be done by a distributor. And by your local store – both an owner and a non-Jewish employee. There were recent scandals, but in 1920s there were rabbonim who discovered such fraud and were threatened to be killed. I wonder how many were threatened and chose life over kashrus. So, start arranging bringing live cattle form Iowa and let your rebbe supervise schehitah and not just give droshes about cholov yisruel.
So, is there a collective neder to drink chalav yisroel? Rav Moshe recognizes that some do. But I do not fully understand that – everyone in halocha agreed that chalav akum is osur, right? or were there german/litvishe rabonim in Europe that permitted? or was there a sizeable observant population there that drank halav akum in practice?
So, with arrival of chalav hacompanies, this is a new situation and neder should not apply or, if you want, could be subject to hataras nedorim due to unforeseen circumstances.
Thus, the real reason seems to be love of chumros and desire to keep “traditions” and resist “modernity” in the style of Chasam Sofer’s “chadash asur min haTorah”. To continue the pun, R Moshe was not hashash on chadash.
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Anyone remember the shita of the RY , Harav YYR in Baltimore vis a vis Cholov Yisrael in NY ? I remember Yeshivas in Brooklyn that served Company milk for breakfast and lunch.
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