quote from Charedi soldier at Atzeres
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- This topic has 26 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 9 years ago by DaMoshe.
March 3, 2014 10:19 pm at 10:19 pm #612263hatzolajewMember
“I went so that people from both sides should see the other side:
The hostile Charedim should see a frum charedi proud soldier standing up for himself, to break the stereotype of “the soldiers are all koferim and tamei” etc..
And the hostile secular press members can see that there are proud committed soldiers who think that the idea of taking boys from the beis hamedrash and throwing them in prison is unconscionable in a Jewish state.
Plus I needed a mincha. Just saying”March 4, 2014 2:45 am at 2:45 am #1006710no longer need seminaryMember
is it true that the Belze Rebbe said that if the decree pulls through then the entire Belz will move to America and also that the American government had said that they will sign off visas for Belz to move to America?March 4, 2014 5:27 am at 5:27 am #1006711SaysMeMember
nsh- probably not as suchMarch 4, 2014 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #1006713
A Us senator cannot gurantee visas, that is the state departments authority under the executive branch of the government. Congress can pass laws allowing certain people asylum (Like Soviet Jews or Cubans).
Currently no such law exists for Israeli citizens and Israeli citizens unlike citizens of Europe need to apply for a visa to come to the US.March 4, 2014 4:48 pm at 4:48 pm #1006714RedlegParticipant
ZD, congress can also pass special bills allowing certain individuals to immigrate. Congressmen usually go along with each other as a favor in this kind of legislation. I don’t think though that anyone could pass a special bill for a group.March 4, 2014 5:30 pm at 5:30 pm #1006715
They could pass special legislation, but thats the entire congress not just one individual SenatorMarch 4, 2014 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #1006716
In general if you follow the news, immigration is a sore spot and a hot topic flash point and unlikely to pass congress in the current political climateMarch 4, 2014 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #1006717popa_bar_abbaParticipant
Hmm, wonder if you could make out an asylum caseMarch 4, 2014 8:38 pm at 8:38 pm #1006719
Given the general right wing and pro-military bent and anti- government help of the USA. I dont think Asylum would go over very wellMarch 5, 2014 2:07 pm at 2:07 pm #1006721
I don’t know if a senator or congressperson would be so willing to go along with letting chareidim into the US. They already know in advance that this is a group who won’t be looking for jobs (likely won’t be working at all), so they won’t be paying taxes, and will just want to get as many benefits as they can. Honestly, if I was a senator, there’s no way I’d want them. Remember, as a senator, your job is to look out for your constituency. Would you honestly want such a drain on the local budgets?March 5, 2014 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #1006722clevelandrocksMember
I have to say DaMoshe is making a good point, and I am a frum person myself; this a pretty serious situation. Of course they shouldnt be drafted and forced to compromise on religous laws and principles, but don’t demand to be supported by the government either– that is not a Torah life!March 5, 2014 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1006723
DaMoshe, the chareidim in the US work. The reason many in EY don’t is because they need the p’tur from the army.
It’s far from a sure thing that they wouldn’t come here to try and find jobs.March 5, 2014 4:18 pm at 4:18 pm #1006724hatzolajewMember
Not to get back to the main point of the thread, but I think this conversation emphasizes what he was saying.March 5, 2014 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #1006725🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
The reason many in EY don’t is because they need the p’tur from the army.
did you hear what you just said?!March 5, 2014 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #1006726
No, but I saw it.
Ever heard of Ben Gurion’s talmidei chachomim?March 5, 2014 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #1006727gavra_at_workParticipant
Syag: I don’t know why you see that as a Chiddush. It is what they have been saying all along.March 5, 2014 5:12 pm at 5:12 pm #1006728Jerusalem readerParticipant
“The reason many in EY don’t is because they need the p’tur from the army.”
This was not said clearly. What it means is that the Israeli government has made it ILLEGAL for charedim to work. You cannot work in this country, up to age 28, unless you have served in the army. The p’tur (exemption) from the army is given on condition that the person who receives it is not ALLOWED to work. Charedim need the p’tur because the army is not run by G-d-fearing Jews and is no place for a charedi yeshiva bochur. The reason Jews in Kiryas Yoel and Williamsburg and Boro Park etc. go out to work is because it is fully LEGAL to do so in the United States.
I love how the Israeli government forbids young charedim from working — by law — and then accuses them of being parasitical spongers for not working.March 5, 2014 6:01 pm at 6:01 pm #1006729gavra_at_workParticipant
I love how the Israeli government forbids young charedim from working — by law — and then accuses them of being parasitical spongers for not working.
Agreed, but it is better than throwing them into jail for breaking the law. The other option is to become a draft dodger and run off to Syria (or Cyprus). Like it or not (and obviously not), there is a draft law on the books.
And as an FYI, KJ & Willi have their own issues that would be tangential to this thread, but those areas have their own issues (for which the US Government may not want those populations expanded either).March 5, 2014 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1006730Sam2Participant
JR: It’s not a law against Chareidim. It’s a law against everyone in the country. You have to go to the army, by law. Chareidim have a P’tur from the army of Toraso Umnaso. However, you cannot claim Toraso Umnaso (by definition) if you have another job. Chareidim have a choice. They can join the army or learn. That was the status quo since the foundation of the state. The issue now is that the state has determined that the status quo is untenable. There are too many people choosing to learn and the state can’t afford it as much anymore.
And just a technicality, but I thought a married person can work at 24?March 5, 2014 7:01 pm at 7:01 pm #1006731🍫Syag LchochmaParticipant
GAW – it was the who not the whatMarch 5, 2014 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1006732
Anyhow, I didn’t bring up the working/learning/army issue to rehash the argument about who’s right (see http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/dont-stop-arguing#post-512676), rather to assert that the situation might change if the same people who are now in yeshiva would be given an opportunity to work.March 5, 2014 7:30 pm at 7:30 pm #1006733
DaasYochid: I think there are 2 separate issues that the chareidim are arguing about. First, there is the issue of taking people who are in yeshiva and forcing them to stop learning to join the army. Second, there is the issue of chareidim in general joining the army, because they say the army is not appropriate for frum Jews.
It would seem the first point is included in the second, except for the point about working. If a chareidi doesn’t want to serve because he’s learning, that’s fine. Such a person wouldn’t be working anyway, and shouldn’t be complaining about not being allowed to work. His entire p’tur is based on his not working! But when a chareidi isn’t learning, there is a problem. He may want to work, but can’t.
I think the answer is that the rules which supposedly make Nachal Chareidi appropriate for frum Jews must be enforced better! We’ve all seen the stories about how they tried to force the unit to do things which weren’t right. If they made Nachal Chareidi truly proper for frum Jews, there shouldn’t be a problem. Learning boys could sit in yeshiva with their p’tur, and non-learning boys could have a frum unit to serve in.March 5, 2014 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #1006734popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I’m agreeing with DaMosheMarch 5, 2014 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1006735Jerusalem readerParticipant
Sam2: JR: “The issue now is that the state has determined that the status quo is untenable. There are too many people choosing to learn and the state can’t afford it as much anymore.”
You make this sound like an economic problem. It is not. Bringing charedim into the army would cost the state much more than letting them learn, because charedim marry and have children younger and therefore get higher salaries. Masses of charedim is the last thing the army wants or needs, in a time of budget cuts and staff surpluses. They are davka trying to eliminate “jobnik” positions in the army. This is a spiritual war, plain and simple. Lapid and his ilk simply want to pull people out of the beis medrash, to “empty the pool.”
“And just a technicality, but I thought a married person can work at 24?”
That’s what the new law seeks to change it to. Now it is 28.March 5, 2014 8:49 pm at 8:49 pm #1006736dveykus613Participant
DaMoshe: the “old way” it only affected people who wanted to work. Now that new legislation was passed they are trying to force the learners not to learn. and even if, for now, they allow some learners, some in the government are trying to cap it at 400 or 800 max…which the gedolim would never agree to, we need as much torah as we can for protection here
I find it ironic that the other huge issue in israeli politics these days is iran/hamas/hizbullah and our other “neighbors” and the government is shooting itself in the foot by trying to lower the amount of torah protection for klal yisrael and ultimately the medinah as well!March 5, 2014 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #1006737
Okay, tell that to Lapid who wants to criminalize the choice to sit and learn.
What DaMoshe advocates was beginning to happen (at least the part about chareidim who aren’t learning joining nachal chareidi – I’m not sure about the rules being enforced better) until the new draft law was brought up.
This has little to do with DaMoshe’s first point about chareidim from EY theoretically coming here and continuing to stay out of the workforce.March 5, 2014 11:05 pm at 11:05 pm #1006738
dveykus613: Honestly, I don’t blame the chilonim for it. Unfortunately, there have been many instances of fraud in the chareidi world, where chareidim who didn’t want to serve in the army (and wanted to keep getting a government check) would lie and say they were learning full time. Even worse, they had a Rosh Kollel who was willing to back them up, and support the lie. When the chilonim see on the news that a Rabbi is being arrested for fraud, and that there were hundreds of supposed “learners” who were faking it, how do you expect them to react?
Imagine the difference if everyone was honest about it! I believe that things would be completely different. I place the blame on those who lied and the “Rabbonim” who backed up the lies. They caused a huge chillul Hashem, and this is what it led to.
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