Rabbeim- ditch the drink
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- This topic has 50 replies, 20 voices, and was last updated 2 weeks, 4 days ago by jackk.
February 23, 2023 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #2168636
Every year rabbeim invite their kids to their homes to celebrate Purim. It seems part of this celebration is to drink ad delo yadah.
What message are you sending to our youth drinking till you lose control of yourselves?
Imagine if you showed up to school drunk as a skunk? Would the principals support this or even more so, celebrate it? Why would you think parents would want their kids to see this in the privacy of your own homes?!
There is already a problem with substance abuse in our community. Students do not need their role models exhibiting unwanted behavior. If you want to drink, do this AFTER the kids have left; not before they come or in their presence!
What does proper simcha look like and how can we achieve it? This is a teaching opportunity.February 23, 2023 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2168736lakewhutParticipant
It’s only on Purim and it should be stressed that we only do it on Purim.February 23, 2023 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #2168756
Spoken by someone who has clearly never been to the home of a mesivta or beis medrash rebbe on purimFebruary 23, 2023 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #2168758
I’ve been inspired by many of my rebbeim who would get drunk on purim; I saw the torah coming out of them, the simcha…chazal say you can see what a person really is from when they’re drunk, and you don’t need emunas chachamim to understand it.
Parents who had rebbeim who got drunk in front of their families and talmidim have no problem “letting” their kids go to such houses. I personally don’t get drunk on purim, but I love being around those who do. And you would too if you’d drop the “drunk is bad” preconceived notion.February 23, 2023 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #2168798
You are supposed to get stone drunk on Purim. What the Rebbeum are doing by getting drunk is the best Chinuch for Purim.February 23, 2023 7:36 pm at 7:36 pm #2168827puttinginmy2centsParticipant
What happened to ‘u-sh’martem es nof-sho-se-chem’? As a Hatzoloh member, it is not fun being called to a teenager that was drunk, fell off a stoop, and ended up with a cracked skull, or to a mother who found her young teenage son unconscious on the living room floor, to find out in the hospital that he had alcohol poisoning. When she made inquiries of his friends, she was told that every rebbe they visited gave them all different types of alcoholic drinks.
have a frielichin and safe PurimFebruary 23, 2023 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #2168845
I am one of those parents who let their kids visit the houses of Rabbeim and I am NOT ok with their being around a drunk rebbi. So, please don’t make generalizations that parents are ok with it.
I assure you, many families have no clue what’s going on. It’s a bizayon. The only reason I know is because my kids tell me in SHOCK, laughing at their rabbeim, about their foolish behavior.
This should only occur in the presence of students of legal drinking age.February 23, 2023 10:31 pm at 10:31 pm #2168871
Des[ite some Rebbes here admiring themselves and their colleagues, there are, unfortunately, enough teachers who are suboptimal even in their sober state, kal vahomer drunk. I presume every Teacher who understands the challenge of his job would think thrice before diminishing his capacity. Maybe a better question would be a testimony of how gedolim behave on Purim. Chafetz Chaim? R Aharon Kotler? Rav Soloveichik? Rav Feinstein?February 24, 2023 12:30 am at 12:30 am #2168887mentsch1Participant
I never saw a rebbe do anything inappropriate while drunk just the opposite the Torah and mussar would flow
I looked forward to the mussar I would get from my rabbeim on Purim
When they drank they reached into our soul and told us something that we needed to hear but maybe they couldn’t say while sober
I am a better man for it
And I emulate them
Always mikayem the mitzvah and never losing control
The worst my kids can ever say about my Purim drinking is that I fall asleep at the table
Drinking like any other mitzvah requires shemush and proper executionFebruary 24, 2023 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2168896
Perhaps the children think that any drunkenness is automatically laughable, because you taught them so? So when they see a rebbe drunk, they are “shocked” – how come I’ve never been shocked at my rebbeim being drunk? How come all they ever do when drunk is make purim torah jokes, say real torah, dance around and say grammen? Either your kids go to a very strange yeshiva or they’re just programmed to think that drunkenness is automatically bad.February 24, 2023 12:34 am at 12:34 am #2168897
Numerous gedolim, both past and present, get stone drunk on Purim.February 24, 2023 12:44 am at 12:44 am #2168909
Ujm- “you are supposed to get stone drunk on Purim”. According to some shitos. According to the Pri Megadim and Mishnah Berurah however, the preferable way to be mekayem the mitzvah is like the suggestion of the Rama- drinking more than usual and going to sleep. According to the Mishnah Berurah, he may consider getting stone drunk on Purim a kula… An excuse to a give on to our base desires of drunkenness in the name of a mitzvah when the ideal way to perform that Mitzvah does not require letting go of ourselves.February 24, 2023 7:43 am at 7:43 am #2168913
Ujm- and just to make sure I’m not misunderstood. I’m not against getting drunk on Purim if it’s done safely and responsibly. I do it myself (though I can’t say for sure if it’s my Yetzer Hara or my Yetzer Tov driving me to do so). I’m just trying to point out that making it seem like this is such a one sided issue, that it’s poshut that one should get drunk on Purim, that the Rama is a kula that should be avoided and that getting stone drunk is a proper chumra… Is misleading and not intellectually honest . Poskim as recent and authoritative as the Mishnah Berurah is quite clear that getting stone drunk is not the ideal way to fulfill the mitzvah, and that the Rama is not a kula to be avoided, but the proper way to fulfill the mitzvah.February 24, 2023 7:59 am at 7:59 am #2168914
Nebach, it seems no one understands the definition of ‘drunk’ in the English language or in halacha either. There is no mitzva to get “stoned drunk.” Chalila for a Yiddish to ever drink to the point of losing control. That is שכרותו של לוט. It is never ok to lose control of oneself!
The mitzva is to be ‘משתכר’ which means to be drunk. That means intoxicated. It is a mitzva to be in a state of intoxication. That’s it. If you don’t understand how a Torah Jew can be intoxicated AND responsible simultaneously while maintaining complete control of himself, then you need to go educate yourself and stop giving your input whether pro or con.
Let those who are fully able to do this mitzva properly do it without being told off or prevented in any way. And if you can’t handle alcohol, then stop pretending. אונס רחמנא פטריהFebruary 24, 2023 8:15 am at 8:15 am #2168953
Shimon: Don’t kid yourself. There are numerous very clear shittos to get completely, totally and utterly stone drunk, ad dlo yoda. And numerous Gedolei Yisroel, Talmidei Chochomim, Ehrliche Yidden and Poshuta Yidden, both past and present, have annually gotten completely drunk in full accordance with the Mitzvah, L’sheim Shamayim.
Have you ever learnt Gemorah?February 24, 2023 8:15 am at 8:15 am #2168944
@simcha613, the Mishna Berura does NOT say that. He says “וכן ראוי לעשות” and it’s going on the words of the Rema “וישן ומתוך שישן וכולהו” He’s saying for those who wish not to drink so much, then it’s proper for those people to sleep a little. No where does he say this is the mitzva min hamuvchar. The Rema say “ein tzarich” meaning it’s a way out for those that can’t.
Gedolim do get drunk on Purim, but they have complete shlita that not everyone notices.February 24, 2023 8:16 am at 8:16 am #2168949
Do you really think that the standard across the board for drunk people is to (only) spill words of Torah?
“How come all they ever do when drunk is make purim torah jokes, say real torah, dance around and say grammen?” Are you speaking of ALL Rabbeim? Do you know ALL Rabbeim???
They didn’t laugh at their just being drunk. They laughed at ridiculous behavior (I won’t go into details).
It’s easy to cast aspersions on people you don’t know (it must be the rabbeim, it must be the yeshiva). It might be more beneficial to consider the possibility that not everyone behaves in an appropriate manner when drunk.February 24, 2023 9:45 am at 9:45 am #2168968DaMosheParticipant
Even if there is a chiyuv to get drunk, the way it is done is very often incorrect.
The mitzvah is to drink wine. Not whiskey, beer, or anything else. Just wine.
The mitzvah only applies during the Purim seudah. It definitely doesn’t apply Purim night after Megillah reading. Additionally, one must be able to recite Birchas Hamazon after the seudah, and also daven Maariv. If either of those will be affected by the drinking, it is better not to drink at all (see Biur Halacha 695).
Many yeshivos hold a mesibah on Purim night, after Megillah reading. I’ve seen boys get completely drunk. Every year, hundreds of boys are taken to hospitals because of alcohol poisoning. A friend of mine who was a Hatzalah member told me that Purim is their busiest day of the year. This is definitely 100% wrong – drinking should never become life threatening!
If Rabbeim want to model proper drinking, then they should invite the boys over for the seudah, and show them how it is. I once was at my Rebbe’s house (not R’ Bender, another Rebbe from Darchei) just after he finished his seudah. His wife mentioned that she needed something from the store, and he apologized to her. “I drank just enough to feel a bit dizzy, so I can’t drive. I’m so sorry! Are you able to get it yourself?” That is how a Rebbe shows a talmud the proper way to act.February 24, 2023 9:48 am at 9:48 am #2168977
Shimon- with all due respect, I do not think that’s the proper understanding of the MB. Why would the MB need to tell us that “if you want to follow the Rama, make sure to do everything that the Rama says to do”? It seems far more likely that his comment is going on the entire suggestion of the Rama, that the option to drink more than usual and then go to sleep is the proper way to fulfill the mitzvah of ad delo yada.
Plus, the MB is quoting the Pri Megadim who is much more explicit. The Pri Megadim first references the Taz who explains the Rama is going like the shitah of R’ Efrayim that the story of the killing of R’ Zeira is the way the Gemara tells us that we shouldn’t get drunk like Rava suggests. The Pri Megadim then quotes the Pri Chadash that one shouldnt drink so much, just a little and then go to sleep. And then the Pri Megadim finishes off וכן ראוי לעשות which is what the MB quoted. So it’s clear that the וכן ראוי לעשות is going on the entire suggestion of the Rama and not the end of itFebruary 24, 2023 9:50 am at 9:50 am #2168983ubiquitinParticipant
you ask “Are you speaking of ALL Rabbeim? Do you know ALL Rabbeim???”
I completely agree with Avira.
While obviously he and I do not know “all Rabbeim” Ive visited enough on Purim (and I dont think Ive gone to the same yeshivos as Avira) . NEVER have any of the Rabbeim exhibited any unwanted behavior.
you ask “Imagine if you showed up to school drunk as a skunk? ” This is silly. surely you are familiar with Shlomo’ Hamelech’s L’kaol Zeman va’es Imagine if Rebbe showed up to yeshiva wearing slippers and then sat on the floor? Yet On Tisha’s baav that is what he does. There is a time for everything, yes being drunk on a random tuesday in school is very very inappropriate (bit of an understatement) , that has nothing to do wit h anything.
What is a problem is underage drinking particularly when it gets out of hand. A teenager getting a shot from this Rebe and then a shot from that Rebbe. That can become a problem. But as for the Rabbeim themselves you are simply misinformedFebruary 24, 2023 10:59 am at 10:59 am #2169004
Assuming a rebbi is an adult and can do as he wishes is a mistake. A Purim invite is a chinuch invite.
Lakol zman vaes…
Since when is a rebbi off duty from being appropriate?
The point is not about showing up to school drunk vs being drunk on Purim. It’s about inviting talmidim and then forgetting that you are still in a sense teaching.
Drink, but don’t do it in front of talmidim.
Drink ad delo yada, but do it after the talmidim leave.
Be besimcha, but do it through simchas hachag, Torah, NOT by letting loose in this way in front of talmidim.February 24, 2023 1:33 pm at 1:33 pm #2169011
On purim it is appropriate to be drunk. On purim it is the proper Chinuch to show children Yidden are drunk.February 24, 2023 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #2169030ubiquitinParticipant
“Since when is a rebbi off duty from being appropriate?”
Drinking on Purim though is not inappropriate. In fact it is entirely appropriateFebruary 24, 2023 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2169055amiricanyeshivishParticipant
I fully feel for the the Yiddishe Momma. She must have had a bad experiance with some Rebbi. But that is not the norm.
And besides Yiddishe Mommas were never the poisek achron for klall yisroel.
Most talmidei chachomim who get drunk are such a Kiddush Hashem. Ask any nonjewish janitor from Yeshivos. They are “arois from their keilim” watching how Yeshiva Bachurim get drunk and there is no fighting etc just hugging each other and darshening in learning. It is utterly amazing to watch the Torah that flows from your regular 18 /19 year old serious yeshiva bachur by ad delo yoda.
Kiddush sheim shomayim in its fullest sense!! The ahavah and purity pours out in ways you wopuld never see. I remember one 19 year old bachur ratteling off the first perek of mesilas yeshorim by heart,something this quiet masmid would never do soberdikeheit.February 24, 2023 6:05 pm at 6:05 pm #2169053hujuParticipant
Lakewhut and I agree. Mark your calendars, or celebrate with one or two drinks, but no more.February 25, 2023 8:32 pm at 8:32 pm #2169135
I’ll ask my rosh kolel how to understand the mishna berura.
Damoshe, there is nowhere that says to only to the mitzva through wine only. If someone prefers, he can have a drop of wine and the rest from other drinks or even skip wine altogether. I personally get nauseous sometimes from wine, but I have an easy time with whiskey. Also, there is a mitzva to eat and drink the entire day, not just after hamotzi. I usually start drinking after mincha gedola. Regarding bentching, you can keep some control of yourself and still be able to bentch. Alternatively, you can bentch in middle of the seuda after a few courses and still continue with the mishta. For maariv, there are many later minyanim depending where you are. Also, you don’t have to be completely back to full strength in order to daven so long as you’re sobered up enough to act and talk regular (as opposed to completely sober in order to drive).February 25, 2023 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #2169166yechiellParticipant
anyone who drinks in excess in front of teenagers, should be charged with homicide
because one of these teens will probably die from overdose or car accident or whatever.
pikuach nefesh comes FIRSTFebruary 25, 2023 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2169176
simcha> though I can’t say for sure if it’s my Yetzer Hara or my Yetzer Tov driving me
Both are OK, as long as you are not driving yourself.February 25, 2023 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #2169180
> Let those who are fully able to do this mitzva properly do it without being told off or prevented in any way. And if you can’t handle alcohol, then stop pretending
Well, who is deciding whether the person is able to do it properly? Surely, someone who already decided that majority of poskim approve of this and reads MB accordingly is in the best control of his faculties to make the evaluation. As R Twersky writes – smarter alcoholics are hard to cure as they are good at coming with tirutzim justifying their behavior.
Halocha thrives on creating objective measures that leave nothing to Yetzer Hara to hang on: arba amot, 50 amot, etc. I see above such an emerging list – wine, at the end of seuda, being able to say birkat hamazon…
Police ask drunk drivers to say alphabet backwards and walk along a straight line. Maybe similar measures can be established? Recite mishnayos .. find Amalek posuk in ChumashFebruary 27, 2023 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #2169670n0mesorahParticipant
A bunch of adults getting all uppity about other adults drinking. If you care about the kids, you would tell them what being drunk is, and how to be safe about it.February 28, 2023 11:59 am at 11:59 am #2169936
“homicide” “overdose” “car accident”
I really hope you are being sarcastic.February 28, 2023 1:19 pm at 1:19 pm #2169984DaMosheParticipant
Shimon, looking for the exact source led me to an OU article, which lists a few sources for only drinking wine: Hitorerut Teshuva O.C. 3:491, Nitei Gavriel p.83, Rambam Megilla 2:15
The Rambam also notes that the drinking is part of the seudah, not independent of it.
כֵּיצַד חוֹבַת סְעֻדָּה זוֹ. שֶׁיֹּאכַל בָּשָׂר וִיתַקֵּן סְעֻדָּה נָאָה כְּפִי אֲשֶׁר תִּמְצָא יָדוֹ. וְשׁוֹתֶה יַיִן עַד שֶׁיִּשְׁתַּכֵּר וְיֵרָדֵם בְּשִׁכְרוּתוֹ.
Additionally, the Orchos Chaim says, “To be thoroughly drunk is completely forbidden. There is no greater sin than this, for it leads to adultery, bloodshed, and many other sins besides. Rather, you should drink a little more than you are accustomed to.”February 28, 2023 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #2169954GadolhadorahParticipant
“homicide” “overdose” “car accident….I really hope you are being sarcastic.
Hopefully just hyperbole. However, if it could be shown that a Rav actively encouraged excessive drinking leading to a death or serious injury, he would definitely be open to prosecution and incarceration if the facts are verified. There is no waiver under the DWI, homicide or wrongful death statutes for “Purim authorized intoxication”.February 28, 2023 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #2170025
Gadol, that’s not altogether simple – rabba shachteo lerebbe zayra; it aas during purim drinking. Granted he was an amorah with the power of techias hameisim and revived him, but still…
We also see this by regular damages; if someone’s property is damaged during simchas purim, he’s exempt from paying – this could be either because of a universally agreed mechilah(in which case it has nothing to do with an outsider on purim) or because he was involved in something permitted, in which case it would apply to people not involved in the festivities.
Of course, the police don’t care about halacha, but it’s an interesting question for usFebruary 28, 2023 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #2170169
An interesting point regarding legal liabilities to the Rebbe and the yeshiva. If true, a responsible yeshiva will advise Rebbe against such activity.March 2, 2023 4:45 pm at 4:45 pm #2170765
“if true, aaq thinks a responsible yeshiva would et,c.” seems more accurate.
But for some reason, out of all the issues we hear about, kids dying because they saw their rebbe while he was drunk, just isnt one of them. Why does the fact that they may be legally liable change anything?March 3, 2023 7:34 am at 7:34 am #2170961
Legal liability is when you expose yourself to a risk of very high damages in US of A. For example, you run a corporation, and if your business fails,, you lose your business, but not all your private property. If you start behaving illegally, say, comingling your own money with corporate, this opens a way to lose everything you and your family have. (this is an illustration, not a legal advice, I am not a lawyer).
Same here, yeshiva may lose all their funds and licenses to a lawsuit by someone hit by a drunk yeshiva-bocher. Presumably, yeshiva is making use of donations, and I can’t imagine how one can risk someone’s holy tzedoka in such a way.March 4, 2023 10:37 pm at 10:37 pm #2171146
its one thing to call it irresponsible to let rebbeim drink in front of their bochurim. although that itself is wrong. But to say you cant imagine someone giving their tzedakah to a yeshiva in which the rebbeim drink on purim in front of their talmidim is ridiculous. You are basically ruling out the vast majority of yeshivos to give your tzedakah to. lets say, chas veshalom, a drunk yeshiva bochur would hit someone-forget about U.S. law, (that is a whole separate discussion) dont tell me that you believe the rebbe is responsible for that. and lets say the yeshiva has to pay for a lawsuit-that is in no way a waste of tzedakah money. to enable a yeshiva to continue to operate. I dont really understand anything you said.March 5, 2023 8:48 pm at 8:48 pm #2171213
For those who follow Daas Torah, here is their message
An Appeal to B’nei Yeshiva & Ba’alei Batim
TO ELIMINATE DANGEROUS DRINKING ON PURIM
“One is obligated on this day [of Purim] to have an abundance of simcha, and to eat and drink To contentment. However, we are not commanded to become drunk to the point of diminishing ourselves through the simcha, for the simcha that we were commanded to have is not one of frivolity or foolishness but one of spiritual pleasure that brings us to the love of Hashem and praise for the miracles He performed for us.” (Meiri, as quoted in the Bi’ur Halacha, Orach Chaim 695.)
In recent years, the problem of dangerous drunkenness on Purim, especially among b’nei yeshiva, has reached alarming proportions, and has led to sakonas nefoshos and chilul Hashem.
Medical doctors as well as representatives of Hatzolah have reported numerous instances of bochurim having to be rushed to hospital emergency rooms, some of them even placed on life-support systems, because of over-drinking on Purim.
To address this intolerable situation, we call upon the entire community that seeks to fulfill the mitzva of Simchas Purim properly, and especially our dear yeshiva bochurim, to take special care in drinking practices, and to adhere to the following suggested guidelines.
1. The mitzvah of “Chayav adam l’v’sumei b’Puria…” is preferably fulfilled with wine, as is stated In Kitzur Shulchan Aruch (142:6). Unrestrained use of whiskey and other alcoholic beverages is entirely inappropriate and absolutely contrary to da’as Chachomim.
2. Ba’alei Batim should not serve any alcoholic beverages, including wine, to groups of bochurim visiting their homes.
3. Those who drive under the influence of alcohol endanger not only themselves but also their passengers and other members of the public. Drivers must therefore not consume any alcoholic beverages, including wine, and must take extra care to drive safely, observing all applicable Laws and safety procedures.
4. Nobody should enter a car if there is reason to believe that the driver is under the influence of alcohol, and all appropriate steps should be taken to prevent such an individual from driving.
In the merit of fulfilling the mitzva of Simchas Purim properly, may we be privileged to see haromas keren Yisroel.
Rabbi Shmuel Berenbaum
Rabbi Eliezer Simcha Lieff
Yeshiva Gedolah of South Monsey
Rabbi Yehoshua Schiff
Mesivta Bais Shraga
Rabbi Chaim Boruch Wolpin
Yeshiva Karlin Stolin
Rabbi Mastisyahu Salomon
Beth Medrash Govoah, Lakewood
Rabbi Yisroel Plutchok
Yeshiva Derech Chaim
Rabbi Shmuel Mendlowitz
Mesivta Bais Shraga
Rabbi Asher Kalmanowitz
Rabbi Akiva Grunblatt
Yeshiva Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen
Rabbi Yisroel M. Kagan
Yeshiva Toras Chaim, Denver
Rabbi Yaakov Abramowitz
Yeshiva Gevoha D’Chassidei Gur
Rabbi Chaim Leib Epstein
Yeshiva Zichron Melech
Rabbi Simcha B. Ehrenfeld
Rabbi Dovid Kviat
Rabbi Shloime Mandel
Yeshiva of Brooklyn
Rabbi Mordechai Rennert
Yeshiva Derech Chaim
Rabbi Yaakov Schnaidman
Yeshiva Bais Moshe, Scranton
Rabbi Yoseph Rosenblum
Yeshiva Shaarei Yosher
Rabbi Moshe Wolfson
Yeshiva Torah Vodath
Rabbi Dovid Schustal
Beth Medrash Govoha, Lakewood
Rabbi Yeruchim Olshin
Beth Medrash Govoha, Lakewood
Rabbi Moshe Green
Rabbi Yitzchok Paler
Yeshiva M’kor Chaim
Rabbi Yosef Frankel
Rabbi Yehuda Svei
Yeshiva Gedolah of Philadelphia
Rabbi Zecharya Gelley
Khal Adas Yeshurun
Rabbi Chaim Stein
Yeshivas Telshe, Clevaland
Rabbi Moshe Glustein
Yeshvia Mercaz Hatorah, Montreal
Rabbi Yekusiel Bittersfeld
Yeshiva Harbotzas Torah
Rabbi Yitzchok Feigelstock
Mesivta of Long Beach
Rabbi Aharon M. Schechter
Yeshiva Rabbi Chaim Berlin
Rabbi Eliezer Gross
Yeshiva Gedolah of Los Angeles
Rabbi Aharon Feldman
Yeshivas Ner Yisroel, Baltimore
Rabbi Yitzchok Sorotzkin
Rosh Yeshiva, Telz Yeshiva, Lakewood
Rabbi Chaim Steinwurzel
Yeshiva Shaarei Yosher
Rabbi Avraham Chaim Levin
Rabbi Eliezer Eichler
Tiferes Mordechai Shlomo, Boyan
Rabbi Elya Ber Wachtfogel
Yeshiva Gedola Zichron Moshe
Rabbi Eliyahu Kanarek
Yeshiva Ohr Hameir, Peekskill
Rabbi Henoch Leibowitz
Yeshiva Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen
Rabbi Shmuel Miller
Yeshiva Gedolah Bais Yisroel
Rabbi Aryeh Malkiel Kotler
Beth Medrash Govaoha, Lakewood
Rabbi Naftali Jaeger
Yeshiva Shor Yoshuv
Rabbi Yisroel Perkowski
Yeshiva Bais Hatalmud
Rabbi Yechiel Perr
Yeshiva Derech Ayson
Rabbi Chaim Dov Keller
Yeshivas Telshe, Chicago
Rabbi Shimon Alster
Yeshiva Gedola of Cliffwood
Rabbi Binynomin Zeilberger
Yeshiva Bais Hatalmud
Rabbi Tzvi Spira
Rabbi Lipa Margolis
Yeshiva Torah Temimah
Rabbi Yaakov Busel
Mesivta Rabbeinu Yaakov Rabbi Yosef Eichenstein
Yeshivas Rabbeinu Yaakov Yosef
Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky
Yeshiva Gedolah of Philadelphia
Rabbi Dovid Harris
Yeshiva Rabbi Yisroel Meir Hakohen
Rabbi Reuven Feinstein
Yeshiva of Staten Island
Rabbi Levi Dicker
Yeshiva Mercas HaTorah, Belle Harbor
Rabbi Yaakov Bender
Yeshiva Darchei Torah
Rabbi Yochanan Zweig
Yeshiva of Miami Beach
Rabbi Shmuel Shmelka Leifer
Yeshiva Toras Chesed
Rabbi Dovid Feinstein
Yeshiva Tiferes Yerushalayim
Rabbi Refael Gettinger
Yeshiva Toras Chesed
Rabbi Meir Stern
Yeshiva Gedolah of Passaic
Rabbi Yaakov Perlow
Rabbi Yosef Harari-Raful
Yeshiva Ateret Torah
This message is published as a public Service by Agudath Israel of America,and has been publicized regularly for close to twenty years.March 5, 2023 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #2171354
What has been said here that contravenes anything that the roshei yeshiva sm signed on to? The OP is upset with rebbeim who get drunk, dance, wildly sing praises of Hashem, rattle off torah, grammen ,and so on – the kol koreh calls for a spiritual celebration, and that’s exactly what these rebbeim show their talmidim.March 6, 2023 7:52 am at 7:52 am #2171426anonymous JewParticipant
Well, for one, ujm keeps advocating getting stoned drunk. In addition, both of you seem to have a view that every drunk is a happy, gleeful drunk, full of merriment. Haven’t you heard of, or experienced a nasty, mean drunk? Just ask any woman or child beaten up by a nasty drunk. What is your proof that all rebbeim are pleasant drunks.
With regard to the bochrim, until about 60 years ago, few had access to cars and there was less of an issue of driving drunk from rebbe to rebbe. Today, will a drunk rebbe, serving alcohol to his students, recognize inebriation ,or ask how much they’ve already drunk? Most teens can’t handle alcohol and don’t recognize the warning signs until it’s too late. And, I believe that in New York, anyone illegally serving alcohol to minors, or drunk 18 yr kids is legally responsible for damages incurred in a car accident.March 6, 2023 11:13 am at 11:13 am #2171551
As a talmid of Rav Miller zatsal, you certainly know that Rav Miller was the happiest person alive on Purim , but was nowhere close to drunk.
FYI – He was probably the happiest person alive the other 365 days of the year too.March 6, 2023 12:03 pm at 12:03 pm #2171574
Jack, Rav Miller was a proponent of getting drunk on Purim.March 6, 2023 1:23 pm at 1:23 pm #2171583
What should be our attitude towards those who become shikur on Purim?
We have to know that the purpose of our lives is to acquire da’as, not to lose da’as. When a person becomes very intoxicated so he is already b’geder beheima, he’s in the category of an animal, and that’s no praise for him at all.
However, sometimes in order to raise the airplane off the ground, you have to put high octane fuel into the tank to help get liftoff. And therefore, in order to make yourself more enthusiastic it’s the proper thing, there’s nothing wrong with imbibing a certain amount. But to get out of control, that’s a mistake. It’s not a kiddush Hashem; you make yourself look disgusting. No, I don’t approve of that, it’s very wrong, very wrong.
And therefore, although it’s a mitzvah on Purim nichnas yayin yatza sod, you have to be very careful that nichnas yayin, the wine should come in to you, and yatza sod, and the secret of the Jew comes out. יין is gematria seventy, and סוד is also gematria seventy. So the seventy of wine comes in and it pushes out the secret that the Jew keeps inside him.
So the Jew has in his neshama a love of Hashem, only that he’s too bashful to talk about
it. He’s enthusiastic for the Torah and mitzvos but he’s embarrass to show it. But when the wine comes in, so the truth comes out and it shows his real pnimiyus. When he’s a little bit intoxicated the Jew shows the real enthusiasm that he possesses, things that he never showed before.
So therefore, Purim is a great opportunity for people to demonstrate their loyalty to the Torah, their emunah in Hakodosh Boruch Hu, that He’s protecting us at all times, and that eventually we will conquer, we will outlive all of our enemies. All this and much more we can demonstrate on Purim; and we are able to do it when we evoke, we elicit, the greatness of which we are capable. We have it in ourselves! And a little bit of mashkeh helps out, no question about it.
Of course, Purim is a great day of da’as in general. And we should try to make it as much as possible important in the eyes of our children, and in our family and in our community. Make a big fuss out of Purim! And the Purim seudah should be a very important affair, a very important seudah. And by making Purim very prominent in our lives, then it becomes one of the jewels, one of the most beautiful tachshitim on the luach of the Jewish year.
TAPE # 867 (March 1992)
How do I utilize drinking עד דלא ידע in order to serve Hashem?
עד דלא ידע בין ארור המן לברוך מרדכי. I’ll tell you one peirush. It means עד ולא עד בכלל. You drink up to the point of losing your da’as. You drink just enough. But not enough to lose your da’as. On Purim you have to have da’as. You have to have more da’as on Purim, not less.
Now, a little bit of da’as can be gained by drinking. A little bit. Oh yes; it’s like an airplane that needs high octane gas to get up in the air. A little bit of alcohol helps your spirit go higher. Yes, a little bit of mashkeh. But too much alcohol will sink you. And therefore, there’s no use in falling asleep in the middle of Purim like a drunken goy and then they have to call Hatzalah. On Purim you should be gaining da’as and if you utilize the day properly, it’ll be a day of da’as. And you won’t be gaining any da’as lying on the floor waiting for Hatzalah to come.
TAPE # E-225 (March 2000)March 6, 2023 1:24 pm at 1:24 pm #2171584
In Slabodka I had two rebbes, zichronom livrocha, and boruch Hashem they were both inspirations to me. I will describe to you how different their behavior was on Purim.
On Purim it was a minhag of the bnei hayeshiva to go to all the roshei yeshiva and menahalim of the yeshiva. We went to the homes of the roshei yeshiva and to the mashgiach and we went to all the important people of the yeshiva. And these two rebbes of mine were different in the way they behaved on Purim. Pay attention, because the ways of tzaddikim we have to learn; both of them are ways in avodas Hashem.
One rebbe—I won’t tell names—when he sat at the head of the table and the yeshiva people were dancing around the table, he was watching to see who was a little wild, and those were the ones he gave wine or a glass of schnapps to. He poured fuel on the fire in order it should burn more brightly!
The other rebbe was an old misnaged type; a cold misnaged. When we were dancing around his table, he looked at the boys suspiciously to see if somebody was ungeshikert, intoxicated, and anyone who was drunk and a little wild, his face turned unhappy and sour. That was the other rebbe.
Now, which rebbe I followed you can understand yourself! The rebbe’s face that was sour, that’s the one I followed. And this rebbe said two separate schmoozen. One schmooze was that you shouldn’t get drunk on Purim; you should drink but don’t get drunk. Because gedolah deiah – how great it is to have daas! It means Awareness of Hashem. It’s always good to have daas. You drink עד דלא ידע – until you don’t know. עד means עד ולא עד בכלל; it means just before you lose your deiah, that’s when you stop. You should drink עד דלא ידע – until you don’t know. When you reach that stage, you’re yotzei already the mitzvah, more than that – stop. That was one schmooze; that whatever you do, you shouldn’t lose your deiah on Purim.
Because Purim is a time of deiah; Purim is time to gain Daas Hashem, Awareness of Hashem. נודע השם משפט עשה בפעל כפיו נוקש רשע – Hashem becomes known when He does justice; when the wicked is ensnared in the work of his hands. So when Haman was hung on the same eitz that he made for Mordechai, it was בפועל כפיו, it was the work of his own hands, נוקש רשע, that ensnared the rasha, and that’s when נודע השם – that’s when you get daas Hashem awareness of Hashem. That’s when you get real emunah. When you see בור כרה ויחפרהו ויפול בשחת יפעל, that the wicked falls into the same pit that he himself made for somebody else, that’s when people get daas of Hashem.
So Purim is a time to recognize Hakodosh Boruch Hu from what happened on Purim and to be mifarseim the nes, to publicize what Hashem did for us. And therefore Purim is not a time to lose your deiah, no. On Purim you have to have deiah, you have to acquire deiah. Only you drink up till then, as we said before, in order to get more hislahavus in deiah; more enthusiasm in this knowledge of Hashem.
However, the other time we went to him he said as follows: Since Purim is a time for deiah, therefore we have to know that there’s a rule that the Mesillas Yesharim teaches us: החיצוניות מעוררת את הפנימיות – The outward acts of a person awaken up the inner thoughts. By doing certain outward actions, you stimulate your inner machshovos, your emotions.
“Therefore,” he said, “on Purim when we dance—we were dancing around his table—every stamp you make on the floor—the floor was shaking from that—every stamp you make, you have to know that you’re stamping emunah into your neshama.”
Don’t think it’s not so! You may be thinking also of a good time; why not? You like the exhilaration of dancing; you can let go on Purim. But if you’re doing it with a little bit of lisheim shomayim, you have to know that you’re imprinting emunah onto your neshama. That’s what you’re doing. “Every klop that you knock with your foot,” he told us, “you’re knocking the emunah into your neshama more clearly.”
From the Rav’s Purim Mesiba, תשמ״ה, March 7th 1985March 6, 2023 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #2171658
Jack, thank you for sharing. In short, Rav Miller is saying to get drunk but not too drunk.
He also acknowledges other shittos (than his own) that hold that you should get very drunk. And even cites one of his rebbeim that gave alcohol to his talmidim to get them drunker than they already were.March 7, 2023 12:19 am at 12:19 am #2171670
Jack, thanks for the good information. Anyone doesn’t see their yeshiva on that list, please call them and see if they would join.I hope nobody finds such.March 7, 2023 12:20 am at 12:20 am #2171672
Kaltlitvak, seems we indeed speak past each other
That usually means that we have different underlying assumptions. Let’s try to figure it out. Maybe we put different meaning into the word yeshiva. I am thinking more of litvishe yeshiva in Lita, where Rabonim are on record to feel responsible for what their students do. You seem to use some looser definition. As you say that some criteria would exclude majority of yeshiva, and this seems pretty normal to me as one would surely support a system of education that one finds better. You seem to be thinking about some Jewish universal educational system where each of them is entitled to universal support but responsible for their best efforts but not for the outcomeMarch 8, 2023 3:15 am at 3:15 am #2171844hashem says noParticipant
it is brought down in the meshesh chachmah that one is michuyiv to get wasted on purim. and not only that, but to feed the young children.March 8, 2023 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #2171921
Did you not read anything I wrote?
Where did you hear me express concern about dancing, singing praises of Hashem, rattling off torah, grammen…?
It’s interesting that you combined getting drunk together with those things and then said I don’t approve of any of it. I wonder why you would do that?
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