February 28, 2012 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #602270hershiMember
Is starting Shabbos using the Rabbeinu Tam’s later zman for Shkia a valid shitta currently? (And ending Shabbos later based on the R”T’s later zman for Tzeis.)
The same about davening Mincha later based on the R”T’s shkia.February 28, 2012 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #857061gavra_at_workParticipant
What does it mean, “a valid Shitta”?February 28, 2012 3:25 pm at 3:25 pm #857062Feif UnParticipant
No, don’t start Shabbos according to R’ Tam’s zman. Start 18 minutes before sunset like everyone else.
As for ending Shabbos, do it whatever time you want.
As for Mincha, you should daven before sunset.
Zmanim for tzeis can be tricky. They are not the same all over the world. In Israel, for example, tzeis comes very quickly after shkia. R’ Tam’s zman was based on where he lived, in France.
R’ Moshe Feinstin zt”l once decided to see when tzeis should be in the Eastern US. He determined that it is 50 minutes after shkia. I keep Shabbos until that zman, as it is the most accurate for our area.February 28, 2012 3:36 pm at 3:36 pm #857063nitpickerParticipant
to feif un
And slightly earlier in the winter.February 28, 2012 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #857064susheeMember
There are many later Mincha minyanim based upon RT’s zman for shkia.February 28, 2012 4:27 pm at 4:27 pm #857065☕️coffee addictParticipant
I heard in pre-war Europe they held RT zman for Shabbos (start and finish)February 28, 2012 4:52 pm at 4:52 pm #857066besalelParticipant
it is well known that rav yoel tietlebaum used the “rabbeinu tam shkia” to accept shabbos until rav aaron kutler told him not to do so in america.
i have been taught that the “rabbeinu tam shkia” has no halachic basis and cannot be relied upon even beshaas hadchak. accordingly, my rebbeyim have taught me that anyone that uses “rabbeinu tam shkia” to accept shabbos is a mechalel shabbos.February 28, 2012 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #857067ItcheSrulikMember
coffee addict: It depends who “they” were. If by “they” you mean Hungarian Jews (might be others too — don’t know) you are correct. If you mean Yekkes, Russians, Ukrainians, Litvaks Dutch (both ahskenaz and sfard) etc, then no. I think that starting shabbos after shkia in the US today would be lo sisgodedu.
While we’re on the subject, are there any sources behind the common practice to daven mincha after shkia and daven maariv before rabbeinu Tam zman?February 28, 2012 5:40 pm at 5:40 pm #857068twistedParticipant
i recall as a youth davening at a large chassidic Bais Medrash in BP erev Shavuos and they started mincha when I could no longer discern the maple tree leaves outside from the darkness. As an adult I became hardcore about actual shekia, and also learned from Rav Premock that RT tzeis is variable based on time of year and lattitude, and that fixed 72 is a widely held error.February 28, 2012 6:20 pm at 6:20 pm #857069bp27Participant
ItcheSrulik – The common practice to daven Mincha after Shkiah and maariv before 72 minutes, is done for the most part completely Lehalachah.
It is done based on the Minchas Kohen’s shittah in Rabbeinu Tam, which was followed in Hungary (not in Galicia), that did not hold of 72 minutes. Rather Tzeis is based on 3 small stars, and the bein hashmoshos beginning 14 minutes before that. Therefore if you assume that Tzeis in NY is about 50 minuts after Shkiah, you can daven Mincha 30 minutes after Shkiah and maariv afterwards 50 minutes after Shkiah. In addition, the Maharam Shick holds that you can daven Minchah during Bein hashmoshos, and this psak was widely accepted in Hungary.
For those who hold with a strict Fixed 72 minutes (Satmar, Klausenberg, etc.) daven Mincha at approximately 45 minutes after Shkiah with Maariv following at 72.February 28, 2012 7:03 pm at 7:03 pm #857070yungerman1Participant
besalel- You should go back to your Rebbe and tell him not to be motzei laaz on klal yisroel. There are many chassidim that hold Rabbeinu Tam for shkiah. But they hold Rabbeinu Tam 24/7 354. They dont end fasts earlier or other such kulos.February 28, 2012 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #857071
Feif Un:R’ Tam’s zman was based on where he lived, in France.
Rabbi Ovadia Yosef proves that this is untrue based on a couple of factors.
A) Rabbenu Tam answers a stira of R’ Yehuda (who he paskened like) and mentions: “and for sure it is not vadai night for R’ Yehuda until after 4 milin (each mil is 18 minutes) from the time of shkia. And R’ Yehuda lived in E”Y as it says in shas many times, “Tana Be E”Y Kai”. It would be a strech to say that R’ Yehuda was talking about France in Pesachim 94a.
B) Even though the S”A lived in E”Y, he still paskened like Rabbenu Tam who lived in France. Which is interesting, because Maran saw with his own eyes exactly how fast the Shkia is in Israel and was still steadfast to the Rabbenu Tam shitta.February 28, 2012 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #857072
hershi:Is starting Shabbos using the Rabbeinu Tam’s later zman for Shkia a valid shitta currently?
If the Mishna Berurah says it’s not a valid shitta, halacha lema’ase, is that enough?
Read the Biur Halacha, if you want to skip to the point, start reading 10 lines from the bottom “vehinei lema’ase”.
Enjoy.February 29, 2012 11:08 am at 11:08 am #857073Yankie DoodleMember
uneeq: Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita paskens like Rabbeinu Tam?February 29, 2012 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #857074besalelParticipant
yungerman: you should hear my rabbeyim. i dont think they believed that they were moytzee laaz on anyone practicing judaism. i once asked one, “if rav yoel was a mechalel shabbos befarhessia are you saying deenoy kegoy?!?!?” he said “lav dafka. he is a tinnik shenishba.” meaning, the the satmer rebbe, in this rabbis eyes, was no different in his level of observance than the hollywood unaffiliated jews. i dont think he saw satmar as practicing jews.
nu, im more tolerant i guess. i dont look down on satmar, lubavitch, “modern orthodox” or any other label.February 29, 2012 2:46 pm at 2:46 pm #857075Yankie DoodleMember
besalel: don’t worry. The guy that told you that is considered a non-observant Jew by large portions of the Torah world.February 29, 2012 2:56 pm at 2:56 pm #857076yungerman1Participant
besalel- kudos to you for rising above the intolerance you were taught by “orthodox” rabbeim.February 29, 2012 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #857077bp27Participant
besalel – very interesting, the accepted psak for hundreds of years and the opinion of the majority of Rishonim and early Achronim (The Shulchan Aruch and Rama included) caused jews for generations to be mechalelei shabbos and they were no better than unaffiliated jews.
I guess we have witnessed over the past 150 years the largest Baal Teshuva movement in history.February 29, 2012 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #857078
Yankie Doodle:uneeq: Rav Ovadia Yosef shlita paskens like Rabbeinu Tam?
Yes, see Chazon Ovadia Shabbat Aleph pages 268-279 where he speaks about this topic at length.
However, he is not alone in this psak, because many Rishonim (and one Gaon) held like Rabbenu Tam:
Rav Hai Goan, Ra’avad, Ramban, Rashba, Ra’ah, Ritva, Ran, Magid Mishna, Meiri, Smag, Rokeach, Mordechi, Rosh, Rabbenu Peretz.
And to these Rishonim you can also add on the many of the biggest achronim, including, Maran Yosef Karo, Re’ma, Mahari Kolon, Ridbaz, Mabit, Bach, Mogen Avrohom, Pri Chodosh, Chatam Sofer, R’ Akiva Eiger and so on and so forth.February 29, 2012 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #857079
besalel: he said “lav dafka. he is a tinnik shenishba.” meaning, the the satmer rebbe, in this rabbis eyes, was no different in his level of observance than the hollywood unaffiliated jews
It’s interesting because I understand his remarks differently than you did. He meant that in this certain aspect he is a tinnok shenishba because he was not taught the proper shitta. So yes, he may be a mechallel shabbos, but doesn’t make him a non-practicing Jew. (They would say in similar cases, “Better to be a Shoggeg then to be a maizid”, when the person is like a tinok shenishba in certain aspect. Doesn’t mean the person isn’t religious.)March 4, 2012 5:46 am at 5:46 am #857080147Participant
To answer whether to follow Rabbeinu Tam’s opinion, we would need more information, the most pertanent being at which latitude you are residing? If you are as far North as Rabbeinu Tam & his contemporaries resided, then there may be some serious obligation to await 72 minutes. Assuming you live somewhat closer to the equator, and if you reside in the USA or/& Israel this is the case, clearly 72 minutes is way longer than the time it takes to get dark & have 3 stars emerge, therefore some fabricated Chumro cannot override any Chiyuv; This includes absolutely not keeping leather shoes on your feet past regular Zeman on Tischo b’Ov nite, not delaying Channukah candle lighting beyond 1/2 hour from real Zeman, not delaying Seder nite commencement when kids may fall asleep & you may miss Afikomen by Chatzos.
Hence you Besalel are 100% absolutely correct & Halachically compliant!! & both Yungerman1 & Yankee Doodle must apologize to Besalel for their having maligned Besalel’s correct Pesak & statement.March 4, 2012 5:51 am at 5:51 am #857081stuckMember
147, uneeq wrote:
Even though the S”A lived in E”Y, he still paskened like Rabbenu Tam who lived in France. Which is interesting, because Maran saw with his own eyes exactly how fast the Shkia is in Israel and was still steadfast to the Rabbenu Tam shitta.
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