Rabbi bites the laffa
- This topic has 21 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 6 years, 2 months ago by twisted.
January 3, 2017 1:46 am at 1:46 am #618953
Matzah used to be soft and thicker —omgosh imagine Pesach prior to the 1800s.
Actually, try 5777: “…some Jews of Middle Eastern descent still make their matzahs thick and soft” (Chabad).
Have you ever had a soft thick kosher for Pesach matzah?
Where is this secret place where you can find such matzot?
How come no one ever told me?January 3, 2017 2:08 am at 2:08 am #1207713
They sell it in Brooklyn however since its not commonly sold some arent ready to allow it for PeseachJanuary 3, 2017 2:25 am at 2:25 am #1207714
Oh wow!!! I just found the website.
Thanks ZD +1January 3, 2017 6:46 am at 6:46 am #1207715Geordie613Participant
We once had Yemenite guests for pesach. They baked their own matza in a sort of barrel as an oven. As children, my parents let us eat it. So it was soft like pitta, although more burnt that a regular pitta. The pasuk calls matza, “uggos matzos”, which translates simply as, matza cake.
If you have a yemenite community where you are, maybe get an invite there for pesach. (Disclaimer – You may want to get guidance from a Rav first)January 3, 2017 7:08 am at 7:08 am #1207716
Georgie613: Super cool!
Thank you for sharing 🙂
The whole barrel oven sounds nifty.
Yay so now eating soft matzah on Pesach is on my life to-do list. Matza cake.January 3, 2017 8:13 am at 8:13 am #1207717
LB: One can only eat these type of matzos on Pesach if they have a specific tradition (minhag) to do so. You must consult a Rav.January 3, 2017 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #1207718lesschumrasParticipant
According to rabbi Blumenkrantz z’l, those matzahs were the source of the gebrokts minhag as it was possible to have unbaked pieces with. He therefore did not follow the gebrokts chumrah as he held that today’s matzahs are baked so thin and burntJanuary 3, 2017 2:41 pm at 2:41 pm #1207719
If anything it’s at least on my life to-do list for tasting in general, not on Pesach.January 3, 2017 2:51 pm at 2:51 pm #1207720
LB: One can only eat these type of matzos on Pesach if they have a specific tradition (minhag) to do so. You must consult a Rav.
Actually that is the tradition, the Hard cracker like Matzas we eat today are actually a new invention as they last longer and are easier to box.
Most people do not bake their own matza, so the bakery does it and they need to do it in such a way that it lasts a while
The Soft matzas do not last very long, they get stale like breadJanuary 3, 2017 4:47 pm at 4:47 pm #1207721
ZD: So when the RAMAH says we make the Matzos “REKIKIN” what does he mean? Thin so it boxes nicely?
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9730&st=&pgnum=164January 3, 2017 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1207722ubiquitinParticipant
the beir heitev on the seif you supplied tells you what the Rema means
“Like a finger width”
whether they were hard or soft is a sepperate (albeit related) issue but they were not thin like our matzos.
Of course things have changed and many charedim today are in fact makpid on thin hard matzos … (see what I did)January 3, 2017 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm #1207723twistedParticipant
veteran home baker here. The pesachdik pita is a wetter dough and bakes longer with lower temperature, unless you have a really high mass oven like a tanduri type. I made some before the chag, by making it thicker, waiting for it to just slightly brown, and doing the pull apart no strings test. It passed the test, but I was not using white flour and it really needed some salt. And it goes stale in the blink of an eye. Without the toasted flavor of regular matzo, it was not that tasty or impressive. I do know someone who bakes it in a pot on the stove, but he adds salt, and I don;t think he holds of Reb Moshe’s chumra of two sided heat.January 3, 2017 7:13 pm at 7:13 pm #1207724
ubiquitin: The Ramah himself in Darkei Moshe on the TUR indicates the opposite of what you write. Also, the Ritva states that one has to make thin matzos. To state as “ZD” does that the thin matzos we have today is a “new invention” may not be accurate.January 3, 2017 7:38 pm at 7:38 pm #1207725
I said the HARD Cracker like Matzas were a new inventionJanuary 3, 2017 8:19 pm at 8:19 pm #1207726takahmamashParticipant
One can only eat these type of matzos on Pesach if they have a specific tradition (minhag) to do so. You must consult a Rav.
Which proves the point that we do not pasken from internet posters who may or may not know what they are saying.
My rav (Ashkenazi), and the rav of our yishuv (Sefardi) both paskened that it’s perfectly fine to eat the Sfardi matza, even if one is Ashkenazi. And yes, the do go stale quickly, that’s why they’re kept in the freezer until they’re needed.
After all, Moshe Rabbeinu and the Bnai Yisrael leaving Mitzrayim didn’t make or eat crackers for Pesach.January 3, 2017 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1207727
ZD: The Aruch Hashlchan uses the term HAMATZOS REKIKIN DAKIM which seems to be what you describe. So again, what is your time reference for “new invention”? it seems by the 1800’s (and probably earlier based on the Ritva) they were already being made this way.January 6, 2017 5:22 am at 5:22 am #1207728
1800’s is still the Haskalah’s dawning.
Isn’t that relatively new compared to how many centuries of making thicker matzot?January 6, 2017 6:10 pm at 6:10 pm #1207729
LB: I understand that you are starting a journey but I quoted a noted poseik. How can you state in response that it is “still the Haskalah’s dawning”? I don’t think anyone will tell you that the thin matzos we eat has anything to do with the haskalah movement.
takahmamash: my statement came based on what I heard directly from a poseik here in NY. If your poseik in EY says differently then YOU have a right to rely on it. I though do not.January 8, 2017 1:00 am at 1:00 am #1207730
iacisrmma: I’m not talking about the Haskalah. I’m talking about the historical time.
In my view, middle ages, okay. Fine, if you’re referring to a traditional which started circa 1300, then to me that’s established.
On the other hand, to refer to something that began in the 1800’s, which is around the same time as the Haskalah, then to me that’s relatively new.
In the same way that our women will likely survive childbirth today is relatively new.
In the same way that getting antibiotics from doctors today is relatively new.
In the same way that relying on electric lighting in our homes is relatively new.
ALL NEW [to me]
My calculation of “new” is in historical reference from what I consider “old.”January 8, 2017 1:37 am at 1:37 am #1207731
LB: The historical time period about the Haskalah had nothing to do with this issue. By mentioning it in a thread like this you are hinting that there is something devious about thin matza vs the thicker softer ones. That is simply not the facts.January 8, 2017 1:51 am at 1:51 am #1207732
No hint at all. That was the most Jewish time reference that I could think of that was vague or would not be taken personally.
There is nothing devious about thinner matzahs.
***When did we start eating matzot on Pesach in the first place?
Here is another example that is more specific (and also not meant to say anything about matzot or people; rather it speaks to the way we gauge time):
The Baal Shem Tov of blessed memory passed away in 1760. Generally speaking, we attribute the start of Chassidus with him.
A number of frum Jews today consider Chassidus to be new.
Chassidus is older than thinner matzot.
That’s it. [Really all happy peaceful loving example.] Thank you.January 8, 2017 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #1207733twistedParticipant
The first hand cranked matzo machine came with the early industrial revolution.50 years later, the Rogochover gaon lamented the demise of home baked matzo and the rise of the commercial bakery. It is also apparent from tales of the Briskers, and the very language of “maos chittin” that even with the rise of the machine matzo, many people and places sourced their matzos as shumura wheat, that was then ground and baked privately or communally. The “artisinal” matzo of the home bakers of those times could have looked very different and variegated.
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