April 28, 2013 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #951172
No one is objecting to those Jews who believe the future of the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael is a function of military and economic might, and who prefer to trust their family’s and our people’s future to their own ability. The issue is that those who believe the future of the yishuv is a function of Shemiras mitsvos and Limud Torah, and who want to trust their family’s and our people’s future to mitsvos and learning and trust in Ha-Shem, are being forced to give up learning to be soldiers. Note that no one is demanding that the hilonim give up their lifestyle and their culture and be required to spend several years learning Torah and concentrating on the correct doing of the mitsvos. The issue is the bigotry and intolerance of people such as Bennett and Lapid who are demanding that everyone adopt their life style, and are ready to use the coercive power of the state to get their way.April 28, 2013 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #951173
health- I don’t know what you do in life but you seriously consider becoming a lawyer specializing in criminal cases. Whatever comes your way, you twist it to accomodate your opinions. So, because the original medinah agreed to the points that the religious jews wanted (shabbos, kashrut..etc), you accuse the medinah of being kofrim because…- “we knew that they were kofrim” ! can you please explain to me how this logic works?
As far as the matter of the gerrer chassidim,vishnitzer chassidim,etc…can you please supply me with serious underlying quotations that they did not want a medinah? R’Itche Meir levin signed the Declaration of Independence, for goodness sake!April 28, 2013 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #951174
Popa: R’ Schachter says that modern-day taxes are different than taxes back then. Back then taxes were paying for permission to not be expelled from the land. Nowadays it’s a Shutfus in things like public works and garbage and such, and as such by refusing to pay taxes I would be stealing from the community. That’s also almost Mefurash what that Ran says too, I think. I think his reading is much easier than saying that no Dina D’Malchusa at all exists in these cases.April 29, 2013 12:35 am at 12:35 am #951175
“R’Itche Meir levin signed the Declaration of Independence”
He also served in Ben Gurion’s first three cabinets.April 29, 2013 12:58 am at 12:58 am #951176
Yes, but don’t you see how then you run into the question I’m asking. Which is, we know there is also usually dina d’malchusa for other stuff besides taxes, and so then that must be for a different reason. But the ?? never explains why that different reason doesn’t apply to taxes. And never even explicates that there are two different theories of dina d’malchusah, and nobody else I am aware of says such a thing either.
And taxes back then were also for public services. That is, for the king’s protection, and for his public works (roads, aqueducts, etc). I don’t see any difference between the taxes then and the taxes now except in the means of collection, and the reason we switched from a tax farming system to a direct taxing system is that now we have the ability to confirm your income through third party reporting.April 29, 2013 1:22 am at 1:22 am #951177
PBA: That tax presumably the Ran would hold you have to pay in EY. He specifically states that he’s only talking about those taxes that are a fee just to live on the land. (See also Bava Basra 7a where it’s clear that we treat different public taxes and spending differently depending on what they’re for in regards to whether or not a Talmid Chacham has to pay.)April 29, 2013 1:24 am at 1:24 am #951178
I don’t find that very clear. And again, do you see how difficult it is to read this that there are different theories behind different types of dina d’malchusah, and he never explains why the other theories don’t apply here?April 29, 2013 1:32 am at 1:32 am #951179
Popa: If they didn’t apply here, I’d find it difficult. But since he’s not throwing them out (like this one), there’s no reason to mention it. Also, Rav Schachter doesn’t call paying modern taxes a classic Dina D’malchusa. He says it’s a Shutfus and that’s your part of it.April 29, 2013 1:43 am at 1:43 am #951180
When I say here, I mean the gemara in nedarim. Apparently you are saying there are two theories of dina d’malchusah, and neither apply to the gemara’s case, but the ?? only explained why one of them does not apply.
As far as the shutfus theory, I respectfully disagree. I do not think there is a shutfus theory that works in democracy, since nobody in the country views it as a shutfus; everyone views it as struggle to get the most value for themselves, including risk aversion, satisfaction of belonging to a social welfare state, and other satisfactions.April 29, 2013 2:31 am at 2:31 am #951181
ROB -“So, because the original medinah agreed to the points that the religious jews wanted (shabbos, kashrut..etc), you accuse the medinah of being kofrim because…- “we knew that they were kofrim” ! can you please explain to me how this logic works?”
Simple. G-d fearing people don’t need the Frum orgs. to force them to have some Torah in their Medina -they would do it on their own. And the reason why they wouldn’t is because they are Kofrim.
“As far as the matter of the gerrer chassidim,vishnitzer chassidim,etc…can you please supply me with serious underlying quotations that they did not want a medinah? R’Itche Meir levin signed the Declaration of Independence, for goodness sake!”
This is what e/o in the Yeshivish Velt says. I’m sure you can find quotes of the Gedolim saying this, but I’m not going to spend my time researching it just to prove you wrong!April 29, 2013 3:30 am at 3:30 am #951182
Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then, and it no longer is. An analogy would be to quote someone discussing how we view Germans from the second reich (1870-1918) and saying that was how the person felt during the third reich (1933-1945) when the policies changed.
Conscripting yeshiva students is a “game changer.” Not funding yeshivos, or structuring welfare benefits so as to injure the hareidi community is mere politics since no one argues that a non-Jewish government has any obligation to give moeny to yeshivos or to give money to frum people and causes. Drafting yeshiva students and ordering them to stop learning Torah is very serious. Even if Dina Malchus Dina applied to the government of Eretz Yisrael, it would apply to such a decree.
There’s even a gemara in Sanhedrin suggesting that if the military police come to arrest yeshiva students, they are allowed to to kill the police (i.e. that the Lapid-Bennett program means the zionists have a din of a rodef – and everything they’ve been arguing to support schechting Arabs as pikuach nefesh, now applies to the zionists — which, BTW, is a more radical position than even Neturei Karta has advocated).April 29, 2013 3:40 am at 3:40 am #951183
“health” did you ever hear of “mesilas jeshorim” ? did you ever heasr of rabbeinu Jonah? Did you ever hear of the mussar movement? Methinks that these authors tried their hardest to make “frum jews” accept th emitzvas.No one called the people they spoke to “kofrim”….
As far as your second point- the sad part is that you just parrot what you hear without knowing if it is true….sad really…April 29, 2013 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #951185
ROB -“No one called the people they spoke to “kofrim””
That’s because they weren’t. The early Zionists were.
Maybe nowadays most are Tinuk Shneshbas.
“As far as your second point- the sad part is that you just parrot what you hear without knowing if it is true….sad really…”
I’m just like you – I’m brainwashed about my beliefs.
Anyways, I wasn’t alive before ’48 – so I have to be Someiach on what others say. One thing I can tell you the attack on the Status Quo by the Israeli Gov. nowadays, even if you can call these politicians Tinuk Sneshbas, but the Rishous that they are doing is B’maizid. They know better – e/o in Israel knows about the “Status Quo”!April 29, 2013 4:16 pm at 4:16 pm #951186
If a rodef is a “Tinuk Shneshba” – he is still a rodef. It is sad. But if he is trying to kill you, you need to kill him first. You have no obligation to let him kill you.
Undermining the frum economy is a nuisance. We’ve lived with worse. Forceably taking students out of yeshiva, seizing their gemaras, and making them learn soldiering instead IS LIFE THREATENING. Torah is to us, what food and water and videogames are to the frei Jews.
I’m not advocating shooting the hilonim, but if they persist in trying to destroy the Torah community, they will find themselves destroyed (and hopefully, we won’t have to firing the shots — not our department, we usually outsource this to Ha-Shem).April 29, 2013 5:20 pm at 5:20 pm #951187
to health-apukerma- joseph and all the others who cast aspersion on eretz yisroel: as i said many,many times, history will be the arbiter who is right. We will all keep to our beleifs.April 29, 2013 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #951188NaftushMember
akuperma–I occasionally wondered how you view Hashem. Now you’ve explained it: He’s someone we outsource our dirty work to.April 30, 2013 2:28 am at 2:28 am #951189
ROB -“to health-apukerma- joseph and all the others who cast aspersion on eretz yisroel:”
This is a total falsehood. My problem is with the State of Israel (aka. The Medina). I have nothing against Eretz Yisroel.April 30, 2013 2:45 am at 2:45 am #951190
Can you site to anything where either rav held that “Dina malchusa dina” would require obeying a conscription law aimed at getting yeshiva boys out of the Beis Medrash and into the barrack? The public statements from them and their talmidim suggest it doesn’t.
In any event, Dina Malchusa Dina would usually apply only to laws affecting welfare or safety, but not to laws that are clearly aimed at undermining the learning of Torah. Anti-Jewish laws were never held to be protected by that doctrine.April 30, 2013 6:11 am at 6:11 am #951191Avi KParticipant
Akuperma, Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 7:4)that in a milchemet mitzva (and there is general agreement that all of Israel’s wars gave been milchamot mitzva and that there is, in fact, a continuous milchemet mitzva – see there 5:1 and Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) all go out to the army and that strong, aggressive military police are appointed to patrol with iron cutting implements which they may use to cut off the forelegs of deserters. Rav Tzvi Yehuda did say that those who learn only need go if the Minister of Defense decides that it is necessary but nobody is saying that those who really learn all day long should be drafted, only those who do not – and certainly those who are registered in yeshivot and kollelim but in reality either waste time or work in the underground economy.April 30, 2013 2:27 pm at 2:27 pm #951192☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
but nobody is saying that those who really learn all day long should be drafted
Any quota flies in the face of that.April 30, 2013 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #951193zahavasdadParticipant
They are not forcing anyone to the draft
They are just telling people if you dont serve you wont get any government Benefits.April 30, 2013 2:52 pm at 2:52 pm #951194
Any quota flies in the face of that.
DY: If the yeshivos went Brisker, no quota would affect them. I still see it as a matter of Gelt, not a matter of life & death. When the mishtara breaks into the Mir or Ponevitch & pulls bochrim out to join the army (like the Cantonists), count me in.April 30, 2013 2:59 pm at 2:59 pm #951195Avi KParticipant
One of the alternatives was a time-clock system. A quota system would estimate how many can reasonably be thought to be actually learning full-time and eliminate the possibility of foishtick. However, it seems that some compromise law will be enacted. According to the Arutz Sheva English website “Defense Minister Moshe Ya”alon has instructed the Perry Committee to prepare legislation that stating yeshiva students will receive an extra stipend for IDF enlistment, without setting an actual limit for the number of draft exemptions to be allocated to those who prefer to continue their studies. ‘An exemption limit like 1,800 prodigies, with forced enlistment for everyone else as proposed by Yesh Atid will only promote animosity and segregation. Haredim are already enlisting without coercion, so better to wait and see how the situation develops in the future, without provocations in the present’ explained Ya’alon”.April 30, 2013 4:41 pm at 4:41 pm #951196
GaW:you are repeating an old “chestnut” (imagined statement): there was never a possibility that non-induction is criminal and therefore, claiming that “the mishtara will burst into the yeshivos” is totally bogus. The only penalties will be financial.April 30, 2013 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #951197
GaW:you are repeating an old “chestnut” (imagined statement): there was never a possibility that non-induction is criminal and therefore, claiming that “the mishtara will burst into the yeshivos” is totally bogus. The only penalties will be financial.
That was my point as well. When it happens (which it won’t), I’ll be concerned/protest. Until then, its all about Gelt.April 30, 2013 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #951198
There are ways to compromise here. The Religious Zionists created both the Hesder system to combine military service and learning — some of the greatest rabbis alive today teach in Hesder yeshivot. More recently they created the pre-army prep schools for young people who don’t want the Hesder program. Sherut Leumi is full of frum people and I don’t know why it would be inappropriate for charedim; indeed many charedim already do very similar service in organizations like the various hatzolah organizations and Zaka. I’d read reports of Nachal Charedi soldiers making siyumim. We all know that in no educational setting is everybody really learning; nobody should kid themselves that everyone in charedi yeshivot in Israel are.
Unfortunately, neither side seems much interested in moderation right now, much less compromise.April 30, 2013 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #951199
“Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then, and it no longer is. An analogy would be to quote someone discussing how we view Germans from the second reich (1870-1918) and saying that was how the person felt during the third reich (1933-1945) when the policies changed.”
Great, you’re probably the first reasonable intelligent (beginning to have my doubts…) English-speaking internet-using frum person who seriously compares the Israeli government to the Nazi government. Well done. I’m just out of words.
The rest of your comments, suggesting maybe it’s OK for yeshiva bochurim to kill the military police who would come to get them…. well, again, I’m just out of words.April 30, 2013 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #951200truthsharerMember
He didn’t compare them to the Nazis. Read it again. Although his analogy means he won’t quote prewar rabbis who were against Zionism.May 1, 2013 3:24 am at 3:24 am #951201
“Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then”
This isn’t exactly true. The draft — and exemptions — didn’t start until after independence. (And the original number of exemptions was only 400; it remained under 1,000 for three decades.)May 1, 2013 3:31 am at 3:31 am #951202
This isn’t exactly true. The draft — and exemptions — didn’t start until after independence. (And the original number of exemptions was only 400; it remained under 1,000 for three decades.)
When you say that, you mean they were unlimited and it happened to be that only that many people wanted them. Right?May 1, 2013 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #951203
When you say that, you mean they were unlimited and it happened to be that only that many people wanted them. Right?
So what changed that so many want exemptions today?May 1, 2013 2:28 pm at 2:28 pm #951204
So what changed that so many want exemptions today?
People had children. The children grew up, and then they had children. And now they have children.
Funny how the world works like that.May 1, 2013 3:02 pm at 3:02 pm #951205
People had children. The children grew up, and then they had children. And now they have children.
Funny how the world works like that.
But until 1980 they didn’t?May 2, 2013 1:46 pm at 1:46 pm #951206just a memberMember
before 1980 chareidim didnt serve in the army. so nothing changed from 1980.May 2, 2013 3:16 pm at 3:16 pm #951207
just a member: You are totally mistaken. there were plenty of chareidim that served in the army from 1948 onwards. Check your facts.May 2, 2013 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #951208
before 1980 chareidim didnt serve in the army. so nothing changed from 1980.
Alert. Alert. Alert. A Joseph-type response has been detected. A Joseph-type response has been detected. Alert. Alert. Alert.May 2, 2013 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #951209
Whether (or “how many”) Hareidim serve/served in the IDF depends on definitions.
Many people define Hareidim in part as “not serving in the army.” By this definition, any Hareidi who serves in the army ceases to be hareidim (what the secular fanatics are hoping for). By this definition no hareidi has, is, or ever will serve in the army.
Once you broaden the definition to include such aspects as strict in kashrus and mitsvos (but that applies to all orthodox Jews), dressing “funny” (but that leaves out many such as the Frankfort au Main community), or holding that the Israeli state as now constituted does not have the power to pass laws that contradict halacha (but many Religious Zionists held the evacuation of settlments was against halacha, and considered armed resistance – does that make them Hareidi?) — you get a much larger hareidi community, many of who have always served in the army.May 7, 2013 11:26 pm at 11:26 pm #951210HaKatanParticipant
I’m a little behind in my reading of this thread.
Regarding Avi K’s remark about Zionist wars being “generally accepted” as milchemes mitzvah:
This is a mistaken Zionist notion, and certainly not accepted outside Zionism; Zionism is, of course, according to our gedolim, avoda zara.May 8, 2013 12:04 am at 12:04 am #951211writersoulParticipant
HaKatan: See, that’s the thing I wonder about gedolim: everyone says that according to OUR gedolim, something is obviously true. The next poster then (t)rolls along and it’s batuach shelo! Because OUR gedolim say so! (And just BTW, mods, why was the record of that other gedolim thread erased from living memory? I was getting really interesting and occasionally pretty helpful responses to my questions.)
I’ve had teachers whom I’ve liked and trusted say that Zionistic wars were milchemes mitzvah, and I’ve had other teachers, whom I’ve liked and trusted equally, say the opposite. The former category spans the gamut from chassidishe-rebbishe-Israeli rebbetzin (you’d know the name if you heard it) to ultra-shtark dati leumi yoredet who did sherut leumi to regular, JPF American. The latter category- actually, the range is approximately the same (though the ultra-shtark dati leumi yoredet really just said that there are different opinions in this case). They’re not poskim- but ask any of them, and these uber-intelligent, ginormously spiritual women can reel you off perek and pasuk as a proof for what they believe.
This is partly because there are different definitions of Zionism, and partly because there is really no concrete answer, unless you believe that only your mekor is right and everyone else is wrong, which you will find difficult to convince people of.
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