Rabbis and the draft

No one is objecting to those Jews who believe the future of the yishuv in Eretz Yisrael is a function of military and economic might, and who prefer to trust their family’s and our people’s future to their own ability. The issue is that those who believe the future of the yishuv is a function of Shemiras mitsvos and Limud Torah, and who want to trust their family’s and our people’s future to mitsvos and learning and trust in Ha-Shem, are being forced to give up learning to be soldiers. Note that no one is demanding that the hilonim give up their lifestyle and their culture and be required to spend several years learning Torah and concentrating on the correct doing of the mitsvos. The issue is the bigotry and intolerance of people such as Bennett and Lapid who are demanding that everyone adopt their life style, and are ready to use the coercive power of the state to get their way.

Popa: R’ Schachter says that modern-day taxes are different than taxes back then. Back then taxes were paying for permission to not be expelled from the land. Nowadays it’s a Shutfus in things like public works and garbage and such, and as such by refusing to pay taxes I would be stealing from the community. That’s also almost Mefurash what that Ran says too, I think. I think his reading is much easier than saying that no Dina D’Malchusa at all exists in these cases.

Yes, but don’t you see how then you run into the question I’m asking. Which is, we know there is also usually dina d’malchusa for other stuff besides taxes, and so then that must be for a different reason. But the ?? never explains why that different reason doesn’t apply to taxes. And never even explicates that there are two different theories of dina d’malchusah, and nobody else I am aware of says such a thing either.

And taxes back then were also for public services. That is, for the king’s protection, and for his public works (roads, aqueducts, etc). I don’t see any difference between the taxes then and the taxes now except in the means of collection, and the reason we switched from a tax farming system to a direct taxing system is that now we have the ability to confirm your income through third party reporting.

I don’t find that very clear. And again, do you see how difficult it is to read this that there are different theories behind different types of dina d’malchusah, and he never explains why the other theories don’t apply here?

When I say here, I mean the gemara in nedarim. Apparently you are saying there are two theories of dina d’malchusah, and neither apply to the gemara’s case, but the ?? only explained why one of them does not apply.

As far as the shutfus theory, I respectfully disagree. I do not think there is a shutfus theory that works in democracy, since nobody in the country views it as a shutfus; everyone views it as struggle to get the most value for themselves, including risk aversion, satisfaction of belonging to a social welfare state, and other satisfactions.

Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then, and it no longer is. An analogy would be to quote someone discussing how we view Germans from the second reich (1870-1918) and saying that was how the person felt during the third reich (1933-1945) when the policies changed.

Conscripting yeshiva students is a “game changer.” Not funding yeshivos, or structuring welfare benefits so as to injure the hareidi community is mere politics since no one argues that a non-Jewish government has any obligation to give moeny to yeshivos or to give money to frum people and causes. Drafting yeshiva students and ordering them to stop learning Torah is very serious. Even if Dina Malchus Dina applied to the government of Eretz Yisrael, it would apply to such a decree.

There’s even a gemara in Sanhedrin suggesting that if the military police come to arrest yeshiva students, they are allowed to to kill the police (i.e. that the Lapid-Bennett program means the zionists have a din of a rodef – and everything they’ve been arguing to support schechting Arabs as pikuach nefesh, now applies to the zionists — which, BTW, is a more radical position than even Neturei Karta has advocated).

ROB -“No one called the people they spoke to “kofrim””

That’s because they weren’t. The early Zionists were.

Maybe nowadays most are Tinuk Shneshbas.

“As far as your second point- the sad part is that you just parrot what you hear without knowing if it is true….sad really…”

I’m just like you – I’m brainwashed about my beliefs.

Anyways, I wasn’t alive before ’48 – so I have to be Someiach on what others say. One thing I can tell you the attack on the Status Quo by the Israeli Gov. nowadays, even if you can call these politicians Tinuk Sneshbas, but the Rishous that they are doing is B’maizid. They know better – e/o in Israel knows about the “Status Quo”!

to health-apukerma- joseph and all the others who cast aspersion on eretz yisroel: as i said many,many times, history will be the arbiter who is right. We will all keep to our beleifs.

ROB -“to health-apukerma- joseph and all the others who cast aspersion on eretz yisroel:”

This is a total falsehood. My problem is with the State of Israel (aka. The Medina). I have nothing against Eretz Yisroel.

Akuperma, Rambam says (Hilchot Melachim 7:4)that in a milchemet mitzva (and there is general agreement that all of Israel’s wars gave been milchamot mitzva and that there is, in fact, a continuous milchemet mitzva – see there 5:1 and Ramban Sefer HaMitzvot Mitzvot that Rambam “forgot”) all go out to the army and that strong, aggressive military police are appointed to patrol with iron cutting implements which they may use to cut off the forelegs of deserters. Rav Tzvi Yehuda did say that those who learn only need go if the Minister of Defense decides that it is necessary but nobody is saying that those who really learn all day long should be drafted, only those who do not – and certainly those who are registered in yeshivot and kollelim but in reality either waste time or work in the underground economy.

They are not forcing anyone to the draft

They are just telling people if you dont serve you wont get any government Benefits.

One of the alternatives was a time-clock system. A quota system would estimate how many can reasonably be thought to be actually learning full-time and eliminate the possibility of foishtick. However, it seems that some compromise law will be enacted. According to the Arutz Sheva English website “Defense Minister Moshe Ya”alon has instructed the Perry Committee to prepare legislation that stating yeshiva students will receive an extra stipend for IDF enlistment, without setting an actual limit for the number of draft exemptions to be allocated to those who prefer to continue their studies. ‘An exemption limit like 1,800 prodigies, with forced enlistment for everyone else as proposed by Yesh Atid will only promote animosity and segregation. Haredim are already enlisting without coercion, so better to wait and see how the situation develops in the future, without provocations in the present’ explained Ya’alon”.

GaW:you are repeating an old “chestnut” (imagined statement): there was never a possibility that non-induction is criminal and therefore, claiming that “the mishtara will burst into the yeshivos” is totally bogus. The only penalties will be financial.

That was my point as well. When it happens (which it won’t), I’ll be concerned/protest. Until then, its all about Gelt.

@akuperma

“Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then, and it no longer is. An analogy would be to quote someone discussing how we view Germans from the second reich (1870-1918) and saying that was how the person felt during the third reich (1933-1945) when the policies changed.”

Great, you’re probably the first reasonable intelligent (beginning to have my doubts…) English-speaking internet-using frum person who seriously compares the Israeli government to the Nazi government. Well done. I’m just out of words.

The rest of your comments, suggesting maybe it’s OK for yeshiva bochurim to kill the military police who would come to get them…. well, again, I’m just out of words.

“Whether any Rav supported the medinah between 1948 and 2013 is irrelevant now, since an agreement to exempt yeshiva students from the military was in effect then”

This isn’t exactly true. The draft — and exemptions — didn’t start until after independence. (And the original number of exemptions was only 400; it remained under 1,000 for three decades.)

When you say that, you mean they were unlimited and it happened to be that only that many people wanted them. Right?

So what changed that so many want exemptions today?

People had children. The children grew up, and then they had children. And now they have children.

Funny how the world works like that.

But until 1980 they didn’t?

just a member: You are totally mistaken. there were plenty of chareidim that served in the army from 1948 onwards. Check your facts.

Whether (or “how many”) Hareidim serve/served in the IDF depends on definitions.

Many people define Hareidim in part as “not serving in the army.” By this definition, any Hareidi who serves in the army ceases to be hareidim (what the secular fanatics are hoping for). By this definition no hareidi has, is, or ever will serve in the army.

Once you broaden the definition to include such aspects as strict in kashrus and mitsvos (but that applies to all orthodox Jews), dressing “funny” (but that leaves out many such as the Frankfort au Main community), or holding that the Israeli state as now constituted does not have the power to pass laws that contradict halacha (but many Religious Zionists held the evacuation of settlments was against halacha, and considered armed resistance – does that make them Hareidi?) — you get a much larger hareidi community, many of who have always served in the army.

HaKatan: See, that’s the thing I wonder about gedolim: everyone says that according to OUR gedolim, something is obviously true. The next poster then (t)rolls along and it’s batuach shelo! Because OUR gedolim say so! (And just BTW, mods, why was the record of that other gedolim thread erased from living memory? I was getting really interesting and occasionally pretty helpful responses to my questions.)

I’ve had teachers whom I’ve liked and trusted say that Zionistic wars were milchemes mitzvah, and I’ve had other teachers, whom I’ve liked and trusted equally, say the opposite. The former category spans the gamut from chassidishe-rebbishe-Israeli rebbetzin (you’d know the name if you heard it) to ultra-shtark dati leumi yoredet who did sherut leumi to regular, JPF American. The latter category- actually, the range is approximately the same (though the ultra-shtark dati leumi yoredet really just said that there are different opinions in this case). They’re not poskim- but ask any of them, and these uber-intelligent, ginormously spiritual women can reel you off perek and pasuk as a proof for what they believe.

This is partly because there are different definitions of Zionism, and partly because there is really no concrete answer, unless you believe that only your mekor is right and everyone else is wrong, which you will find difficult to convince people of.