November 24, 2008 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #626251
are you agreeing with joseph? if you are can you answer the question i asked him?November 24, 2008 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #626252HaKatanParticipant
646, as recently as 100 years ago in Europe, people commonly married at age 12. From that perspective, marrying off a 9 year old of the times past who was equivalent (or better) in every way to our 19 year olds, seems much more reasonable.
The implication that the Torah would condone a marriage that is detrimental to either party, is an abhorrent one, at best.November 24, 2008 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #626253
It is not realistic or reasonable to say that 9 year olds 100 yrs ago were as mature as 19 year olds are today. it just dosnt make any sense.November 24, 2008 5:55 pm at 5:55 pm #626254
or 1000 yrs ago ect.November 24, 2008 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #626255jewishfeminist02Member
Sorry, I double-checked the other thread. Turns out it was Joseph who said that.
Deleted. (Please refer to this post http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/should-pro-freikeit-commentors-be-given-a-voice/page/6?replies=180#post-13270 ) –YW Moderator.November 24, 2008 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #626256
WOW!! someone mixed me up with JOSEPH!November 25, 2008 2:58 am at 2:58 am #626257BogenParticipant
This is 100% Toras Emes.November 25, 2008 6:59 pm at 6:59 pm #626258
what?November 25, 2008 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #626259Pashuteh YidMember
I used to learn with some beginners who were not yet frum, and one had much trouble with the concept of kiddushei ktana. I tried to explain, it is not recommended, but yet suppose a father was very sick, and had little money to leave, but at that time could afford to make a wedding. The family knew a wonderful boy from a wonderful family, and the only way they could be sure she would ever get married would be if they married now. It is better to use this avenue, then for her to be an orphan with no money and very few shidduch prospects later on. It sometimes depends on the situation. If she gets married now, she may be set for life.November 25, 2008 10:54 pm at 10:54 pm #626261
first of all thats a very nice story but the gemara dosnt say you can only do it in such a case,
second of all,
a father forcing (or convincing for that matter) his nine year old daughter to marry someone is abuse no matter the how sick or poor the father is.November 26, 2008 12:19 am at 12:19 am #626262anon for thisParticipant
I thought I remembered reading that sometimes young firls were married to protect them from the local (non-Jewish obviously) ruling officials, who would leave them alone if they were married but not otherwise. In those cases I believe the girls would stay in their parents’ homes until they were older. Does anyone else know more about this?November 26, 2008 1:15 am at 1:15 am #626263The Big OneParticipant
That was limited to a certain time and place. A small window in Jewish history.November 26, 2008 1:29 am at 1:29 am #626264charlie brownMember
take it easy everyone. The Gemara (Kiddushin 41a) says outright that it is assur for a father to marry off his daughter before bas mitzvah.November 26, 2008 4:12 am at 4:12 am #626265
The shulchan aruch (even haezer 37:1) clearly does not pasken like that gemara and says that a father can be mekadesh his daughter who is a ketana even without her knowledge.November 26, 2008 4:13 am at 4:13 am #626266
…and also says that from 3 years and a day old and older she is miskaddeshes bibeeah.November 26, 2008 3:26 pm at 3:26 pm #626267
Joseph (or those that agree with him),
how do you understand this Halacha? do you not consider these things abuse? i hope you do.
i think the answer is that it was written in a time when these forms of abuse werent considerd wrong and were common in the general society were they were written, and that influenced the halacha that was written in that time. (i also think the same would apply to statements by rishonim and achronim about woman not having the mental capacity to learn).
you on the other hand hold that this view is bordering on heresy. can you explain yourself?November 26, 2008 3:53 pm at 3:53 pm #626268charlie brownMember
look a bit later in siman 37, I think se’if yud, that the shulchan oruch paskens that its a mitzvah for the father not to do so. There is a machlokes between the the bais shmuel and the chelkas mechokek whether the shulchan oruch paskens normally that its assur or if its only a mitzvah not to but not assur, but there is certainly at least a mitzvah not to.
the fact that if someone did so it works and she becomes an eishes ish, and yes that kidushei biah works too to make her an eishes ish – doesn’t mean that its encouraged or that chazal thought it was a good idea. In general the gemara says that nobody should be mekadesh with biah even with an older girl.November 26, 2008 6:17 pm at 6:17 pm #626272
ywn editor is my reply gonna be posted?
YW MODERATOR: No.
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