Rambam vs. Ramchal

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  • March 31, 2014 3:02 am at 3:02 am #612466
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    In the beginning of Perek Chelek the Rambam writes:

    ?? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ??????? ??? ??????? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ?? ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ??

    One of these views is:

    ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?????? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ??????? ??????? ??? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ??????? ?????? ??? ?????? ????????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ??????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??????? ?????? ???? ???????? ??????? ?????

    Yet in the beginning of Mesilas Yesharim the Ramchal writes:

    ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ???

    March 31, 2014 3:31 am at 3:31 am #1040150
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Maybe they’re not ???? ???.

    March 31, 2014 4:08 am at 4:08 am #1040151
    besalel
    Participant

    if in the rambam’s time there were already at least four different world views, who are we to regrind ground flour? in my small view, the torah is not a “how to get into heaven for dummies” guide but a guide on how to live a rich life on earth. people disagreed with this view 900 years ago and there will be those who disagree today.

    March 31, 2014 4:34 am at 4:34 am #1040152
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “Maybe they’re not ???? ???.”

    That would be the first way to attempt to resolve this. But it would seem odd for the Rambam to refer to people who its pashut are not ???? ??? as ???? ?????.

    March 31, 2014 4:39 am at 4:39 am #1040153
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “if in the rambam’s time there were already at least four different world views, who are we to regrind ground flour?”

    I’m not trying to regrind any flour. I am pointing out that it seems that lefum rihita the Rambam does not agree to the Ramchal. I’m not saying that there is a practical nafka mina in that the Rambam actually holds like the fourth group. I’m just saying that the Rambam might not agree that it’s pashut to anyone with a brain that the ????? ????? ???? is not ????? ????? ???.

    March 31, 2014 8:58 am at 8:58 am #1040154
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I don’t know that we’re supposed to translate “??? ???” as “anyone with a brain”.

    March 31, 2014 9:09 pm at 9:09 pm #1040156
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    ???? ????? means Jews. The Rambam and the Ramchal are both dismissing this view. There are enough differences between the Rambam and Ramchal. You don’t have to force a wedge where it doesn’t fit.

    April 1, 2014 4:57 am at 4:57 am #1040157
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “???? ????? means Jews.”

    It’s possible. The Rambam does not use this term in any other place in Peirush Hamishnayos* nor anywhere in Mishneh Torah. He uses it once in Moreh Hanevuchim* in a context which can theoretically be interpreted either way. So we can’t really prove what he means based on other usages.

    *These are both originally in Arabic so the term ???? ????? may not be perfectly accurate in the first place. There are also several translations, not all of which have the term ???? ????? in perek cheilek.

    April 1, 2014 6:09 am at 6:09 am #1040158
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    This or similar terms are always used in contrast to those who follow other doctrines.

    April 1, 2014 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #1040159
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    “This or similar terms are always used in contrast to those who follow other doctrines.”

    Not true. There’s a reason I stuck to the Rambam.

    For example:

    ?? ??????? ???????? ???????? ??????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??????

    and:

    ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ??????, ????? ???? ????? ?????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?????

    and:

    ?? ???????? ?? ??????? ?????? ?????? ??????? ????? ???? ?????, ????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ??? ????

    and:

    ????? ???? ????? ?? ?? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??”?

    and many more.

    Although it is true that the vast majority of usages in the classic sources is “in contrast to those who follow other doctrines”.

    July 1, 2014 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #1040160
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    I noticed that the translation by R’ Eliyahu Touger (Moznayim Publishing Corporation) translates ???? ????? as “the Torah Sages”

    November 6, 2014 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #1040161
    Patur Aval Assur
    Participant

    The Ralbag writes:

    ?? ??? ?????? ?????? ??????? ??????? ?????? ???

    ?????? ???? ?????

    ???? ?????

    ??? ????? ??? ??

    ?????? ?”?

    I don’t think he is using it to mean “Jews”.

    November 7, 2014 6:12 am at 6:12 am #1040162
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Histerical!

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