March 3, 2011 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #747322bptParticipant
“…a very with it 25 year old woman, now married about 5 years about how her Bais Yakov education painted frum married life as beautiful….she and her married friends now commiserate on the good old days before marriage…..its exactly what’s wrong with many marriages.”
Sorry, Catchy –
I wish I could say I sympathize with her and her generation, but I can’t.
In today’s market, working boys have been villified, full time learners have been showered with praise, and carrear girls have been minted in record numbers.
But what has not changed is the attitude of boys. They are led to believe they are entitled to a free ride, and therefore, treat everyone (wife included) with contempt.
Know why I respect my wife? Becuase I share her workload.March 3, 2011 11:35 pm at 11:35 pm #747323
At 28 a guy has dated 5 years. The equivalent of a girl who is 24. I agree, guys start at 23, some girls wait until 20.
33 is simply a condervative estimate of a guy who has dated 10 years. (if he started 23). And plenty of guys who are single at 33 end up married (unlike the girls who are single at 29). I agree.
I don’t reallly care if singles date for a while before they get married (though it’s nice if it happens quick). The goal is they should be married. I agree.
You stated rather stay single then marry- please support that statment. My point is that there are lots more singles than ever who go on for years looking for perfect, and sometimes they end up commiting (usually the guys, they have whom to commit to, because of what I wrote below), and sometimes they dont.
I can confidentially state that for the girls who have dated 10 years and are still single it is far far worse than it ever was.
For the boys there is no data to support that. I guess what it boils down to is that the guys, more often than not, can afford to be pickier than the girls, bec after a while girls run out of older guys to date, and guys dont have that problem, because they can simply rob a cradle, which girls cant do.March 4, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #747324
AZ: With all due respect, may I make a point to you.
The NASI project seems to be very important and valuable work. Those involved will surly receive their due reward from Hashem. We all owe them gratitude.
Age-gap may be one problem. Another problem may be inflexibility, fear of marriage, fear of commitment, influenced from the general society that marriage is not necessary etc etcMarch 4, 2011 12:43 am at 12:43 am #747325
I don’t think AZ is denying that there may be other factors preventing individuals from getting married. He’s challenging the OP which assumes that older single men (due to inflexibility) are having a harder time than ever.March 4, 2011 2:04 am at 2:04 am #747326individualMember
No matter what you think in your heart, I hope you never said anything hurtful to a single of any age. It is so painful (even in your late teens/early 20s), and to deal with comments ‘blaming the victim’ and which are often false, and giving ‘tips’ can destroy a person. Would you tell someone suffering from an illness, “It’s because you did x, which made you sick.” Only Hashem knows why situations happen, and you should be caring rather than judging. There are many singles who would have loved to have gotten married at 19/23, but Hashem decided they needed another path. It is very judgemental to assume something so painful is a choice that every older single made. Just because someone is single does not mean you can generalize. I hope no-one feels like they’ve settled, or are happy that he/she only has a one hour a day spouse. Thank Hashem every day that you weren’t given that nisayon.March 4, 2011 2:50 am at 2:50 am #747327ShrekMember
Individual, you said it well. How can we know why a particular person remains unmarried? This whole thread presumes that it’s due to factors under the single’s control. I don’t think it’s fair to say that. People CHOOSE to get married, and singlehood is a “default” state!March 4, 2011 3:07 am at 3:07 am #747328
If anyone is interested i’d be happy to point out accurate factors in additon to age gap casuing difficulties in shidduchim. I just wasn’t going to let a totally unsubtantiated personal hypotesis go with out challenging it.
and that’s exactly what the OP’s statement was. Pure unproven conjecture.
“My point is that there are lots more singles than ever who go on for years looking for perfect”
Please show proof that this is a new or worsening phenonama. Any and all data I have seen shows nothing of the sort.
“What it boils down to is that the guys, more often than not, can afford to be pickier than the girls, bec after a while girls run out of older guys to date, and guys dont have that problem, because they can simply rob a cradle, which girls cant do.”
So please clarify what you point is? At the end of the day you agree the boys are getting married correct? And the girls aren’t becaue they don’t relly have who to marry?
SO WHAT EXACTLY IS YOUR POINT???
That some guys get married at 28 instead of 23. And you huypothesize (without proof) that nowadays more guys are getting married at 28 as opposed to they used to get married earlier?
Is that the totallity of you point. Because that’s NOT what was written or implied in the OP.
Fankly, even if that point was true (which i have no reason to think it is) it is a minor minor issue in the grand scheme of things.March 4, 2011 3:48 am at 3:48 am #747329
Fankly, even if that point was true (which i have no reason to think it is) it is a minor minor issue in the grand scheme of things.
But to a parent of such a child, (even if their assumption is not completely correct,) it is a huge issue which constantly nags at them.March 4, 2011 4:06 am at 4:06 am #747330
AZ, arent we both in agreement that due to the cradle robbing marriages (big age gaps), and guys thinking/knowing that they’ll find a Shidduch sooner or later, older girls have less chance of ever marrying? The more age similar marriages there are, the less there will be older girls who will never marry ch”v?March 4, 2011 4:42 am at 4:42 am #747331
The age gaps which are causing the problem, have VERY little to do with guys getting married late becaue they hang around/picky etc. That is a very very small precentage of guys. It is primarily due to fact that even the (majority of) boys who get marreid quickly inevitably marry girls 3/4 years younger then them since the boys are starting aprox 23 and the girls at 19.
B”H in the last few years we have seen hundreds of 23 year old boys marrying girls their own age.March 4, 2011 4:46 am at 4:46 am #747332mddMember
I want to emphasize the point raised by Health: it is an obligation for a man to be married (for ladies, too; but it’s a smaler one). At a certain point,a man(for sure) has to settle and get married – that’s the din.March 4, 2011 4:53 am at 4:53 am #747333
AZ, B”H in the last few years we have seen hundreds of 23 year old boys marrying girls their own age.
And to whom are all the 19 and 20 y.o. girls getting engaged to?March 4, 2011 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #747334
Obviously fewer of them are getting married at that age, B”H!March 4, 2011 6:56 pm at 6:56 pm #747335shlishiMember
“Obviously fewer of them are getting married at that age, B”H!”
more of them should get married at that age. i never saw any data indicating fewer of them are. az, do you have any data supporting that you will share with us, or is this speculation or info that is “proprietary”?March 4, 2011 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #747336
This informaton that in the last few years far far more slightly older girls are getting married and fewer 19/20 year olds is based on hundreds of conversations with shadchanim. an exact study of girls schools has not be done yet to that effect because the studies focused on girls 24-30.
B”H in the last few years girls there has been a significant increase in shidduchim for girls 24+.
as for your statement”more of them should get married at that age”
not if you want to solve the shiddcuh crisis they shouldn’t….
any individual girls has a right to try to get married, but hopefuuly more and more the boys will continue to lean towards the slightly older girls.March 4, 2011 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #747337
AZ, Obviously fewer of them are getting married at that age, B”H!
Sorry, that doesnt smell right/accurate to me. Certainly not in Brooklyn….The just out of Sem girls are getting engaged as speedily as ever.March 4, 2011 9:03 pm at 9:03 pm #747338shlishiMember
“The just out of Sem girls are getting engaged as speedily as ever.”
just out of sem? try just out of HS!March 6, 2011 12:49 am at 12:49 am #747339
Correct: Many still are and that’s simply becasuse we still have a lot of work to do and a long way to go to solve the crisis. B”H it is quite common as of late for 23 year olds boys todate girls their own age instead of 19/20 yr olds and thats a good thing.March 6, 2011 1:14 am at 1:14 am #747340
We seem to have a debate on statistics here. Does anybody have any data to support their claim? (Obviously, if a higher percentage of 23 year old girls are getting married, a lower percentage of 19 year old are, unless cherem d’Rabeinu Gershom was repealed, but is there a study on this?)March 6, 2011 2:14 am at 2:14 am #747341vicprMember
In general, the whole shidduch dating scene these days is messed up just like the mindframe of a good percentage of girls ideals. When I was dating, I only wanted a guy who for certain was going to work in the foreseeable future. Bec ppl knew my father (a magid shiur) they didn’t bother asking what I wanted and assumed I wanted only learning. Even after I cleared their misconceptions, I was being offered learning. Matter of fact ppl who redt a guy and swore he was going to work (went to college) told me on a date he has no intention of working. Why girls do you find this attractive? What is so wrong with a working guy? What is so wrong with not having to go to ur parents for money? Why dony you want to make a life for yourself? I have friends who compare just how little money they have like its a bragging rite. This is not normal. You want learning? Make sure he goes to a shiur once or twice a week and let him learn on weekends. Guys who do this enjoy learning and look forward to it a lor more than guys who do it every day and its routine. So I wonder, is it the learning that yoou want or when you do some introspection is it attention? A guy who “learns” all day can be home for breakfast luch and dinner, pick up the kids from playgroup and help with bedtime and still have time to spend with you. If that’s the truth, pls grow up before you marry.
I am not knocking full time learners who are lishma. The sad truth is these excellent and honest boys are very very few and far between.March 6, 2011 3:09 am at 3:09 am #747342
Why girls do you find this attractive?
Just like you have a right to find certain things attractive so too, do they have a right to find other things attractive. Please be a little more tolerant!
I have friends who compare just how little money they have like its a bragging rite. This is not normal.
Rabbah Bar Bar Channahs wife disagreed with you. And Rebbe admitted shes right. (Not the bragging part).
What is so wrong with a working guy? What is so wrong with not having to go to ur parents for money? Why dony you want to make a life for yourself? You want learning? Make sure he goes to a shiur once or twice a week and let him learn on weekends.
Guys who do this enjoy learning and look forward to it a lor more than guys who do it every day and its routine.
So I wonder, is it the learning that yoou want or when you do some introspection is it attention?March 6, 2011 3:19 am at 3:19 am #747343
That’s a pretty vicious attack on the thousands of kollel families, saying that the majority are not doing it lishma.
And no, you can’t compare full time learning to going to a shiur once or twice a week and learning on weekends.March 6, 2011 3:49 am at 3:49 am #747344
Why are you so against learning kollel guys? Did not having enough “materials” in your childhood bring you to this point?
The fact is it’s the style to say you want a learning guy. People are scared to break this trend because they might get stuck with “who knows what”. Don’t knock people because they think differently than you. Also, most people in Kollel aren’t living the pauper life like they used to. This is just my impression; and No, I’m not a kollel guy and really almost never learnt in kollel.March 6, 2011 4:11 am at 4:11 am #747345mw13Participant
“What is so wrong with a working guy?”
There is nothing “wrong” with a working guy, just as there is nothing wrong with a learning guy. If you want to have a husband who works for a living, fine; but please do not bash those who are willing to live on far less so their husbands can learn.
“Why dony you want to make a life for yourself?”
I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to say here. In what way is marrying a learning boy not “making a life for yourself”?
“You want learning? Make sure he goes to a shiur once or twice a week and let him learn on weekends. Guys who do this enjoy learning and look forward to it a lor more than guys who do it every day and its routine.”
Even if we would agree that those who learn less enjoy learning more (based on personal experience, I completely disagree), so what? The point is not just to “enjoy learning”, the point is to learn as much of Hashem’s Torah as possible.
“So I wonder, is it the learning that yoou want or when you do some introspection is it attention?… If that’s the truth, pls grow up before you marry.”
Whoa! Why are you automatically assuming the worst possible motive for wanting to marry a learning boy? That’s like assuming that anybody who marries a working boy is doing it solely because they are immature and want money and physical comfort. That’s jumping to conclusions pretty fast, wouldn’t you agree?
“Also, most people in Kollel aren’t living the pauper life like they used to.”
Perhaps (although that’s hard, if not impossible to prove), but I believe that this is mostly due to an across the board increase in the standard of living. Today kollel couples may not live like paupers, but they still have a much lower standard of living than most other people.March 6, 2011 5:44 am at 5:44 am #747346vicprMember
Tolerance??? Where is yours? They were questions, NOT accusations. I was actually looking for mature answers. Didn’t realize everyone here will defend but noone can explain. If kollel works for you, kol hakavod. Just wondering why the vast majority is into only learning. Since when can one mold fit 98% of the population? By the way I think a lot of people will agree that the higher standard of living is thanks to mom and dad/bobby and zeidy generous help. And the reason they can give this generous help? Pretty sure its not because they spent their past 20 yrs learning!March 6, 2011 6:52 am at 6:52 am #747347
They were questions, NOT accusations.
They sure seem like accusations to a bunch of us.March 6, 2011 6:55 am at 6:55 am #747348always hereParticipant
“They were questions, NOT accusations.
They sure seem like accusations to a bunch of us.”
yep!March 6, 2011 7:05 am at 7:05 am #747349
AZ – I don’t know why you hijacked this thread to talk about your obsession with the age gap. There are plenty of singles both male and female in their 30’s, 40’s and 50’s whom aren’t married. Why not? And at this age noone cares about age gap, except that the person can have kids.March 6, 2011 7:24 am at 7:24 am #747350eyefortruthMember
i think the problem here is the system. why do we look for spouses the way we shop for groceries? do you find friends that way too? because i hope no one here has forgotten, your spouse is meant to be your best friend. and no one finds a best friend. no one. you find a friend, and then you build that friendship into something more. so stop looking for mister/miss perfect because there is no such thing. perhaps if we went on a date looking for friendship instead of a trophy wife, we might end up finding something more.March 6, 2011 10:49 am at 10:49 am #747351
In general, the whole shidduch dating scene these days is messed up just like the mindframe of a good percentage of girls ideals.
Tolerance??? Where is yours? They were questions, NOT accusations. I was actually looking for mature answers.
Now I have a question for you. How do you reconcile these two statements? Please provide us with the mature type answer you seek. Thank you. (Or do some of the maturing you speak about, for yourself! and admit)March 6, 2011 10:57 am at 10:57 am #747352
i think the problem here is the system. why do we look for spouses the way we shop for groceries?March 6, 2011 1:45 pm at 1:45 pm #747353
because i hope no one here has forgotten, your spouse is meant to be your best friend
Pretty shallow definition of marriage, if you ask me.March 6, 2011 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #747354
DY Pretty shallow definition of marriage, if you ask me.
Why not look for a best friend (obviously with similar life goals, etc) which is usually lasting, rather than looking for a trophy Shidduch “se zul klingen of de gassen”, like many parents and singles do. As soon as people feel their “knockadicke” Shidduch doesnt impress the Weisses and the Schwartzes, they’re ready to jump ship.March 6, 2011 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #747355oomisParticipant
because i hope no one here has forgotten, your spouse is meant to be your best friend
Pretty shallow definition of marriage, if you ask me. “
Really? Then why is one of the sheva brachos “sameach tisamach RAYIM AHUVIM?”March 6, 2011 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #747356popa_bar_abbaParticipant
?? does not mean friend.
It comes from the root of “Rah”- bad. It refers to someone who sees all your bad, which is your wife.March 6, 2011 7:48 pm at 7:48 pm #747357
You’re misunderstanding me. Shallow means not deep. A spouse should be something much more, much deeper, than a best friend.March 6, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #747358
“perhaps if we went on a date looking for friendship instead of a trophy wife, we might end up finding something more.”
This is a very true statement. Look for someone similar to you in middos, haskafa, personality. Once you find that, you can look on your list for all your secondary issues.March 7, 2011 8:32 am at 8:32 am #747359hanibParticipant
aries: i don’t consider that settling (the story of the girl you spoke about a few days ago). of course can’t fulfill the list of everyone the girl knows, but she got what was truly important to her – that’s not settling!
also, your point about people changing is true, but that doesn’t mean they have to settle – it just means that they must change their list! (in order to get what they really need and want)March 7, 2011 8:39 am at 8:39 am #747360hanibParticipant
health – right, i think what should be on your list are those very things. and, if that’s the case, i’ve found very few people “settling”.March 7, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #747361mytakeMember
Thanks for posing. I agree with you.
It’s not fair that a “working guy” (who, mind you, has a serious shiur every day) is viewed as a lesser learner than many “kollel guys” who…well, don’t exactly learn. Not, Torah, anyway..
Btw, before anyone gets angry: I know that there are guys who work and heven’t picked up a sefer in forever, and kollel guys who actually learn.
That’s society, though. Image. Image. Image. As long as you’re ‘in kollel’, you’re good, just don’t go out to work.March 7, 2011 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #747362cherrybimParticipant
vicpr – ” You want learning? Make sure he goes to a shiur once or twice a week and let him learn on weekends. Guys who do this enjoy learning and look forward to it a lor more than guys who do it every day and its routine.”
What’s so bad about working five days a week and learning every day of the week? Many of us do it and feel wonderful about it.
And AZ, stop with your nonsense already. No one is going to change and start marrying older females because you or anybody else says so.March 7, 2011 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #747363
AZ, stop with your nonsense already. No one is going to change and start marrying older females because you or anybody else says so.
Nobody’s forcing it down anyone’s throat, but it definitely seems more acceptable to date and marry closer in age than it was a few years ago.March 7, 2011 10:27 pm at 10:27 pm #747364oomisParticipant
?? does not mean friend.
It comes from the root of “Rah”- bad. It refers to someone who sees all your bad, which is your wife. “
V’ahavta L’RAYACHA kamocha is also spelled with a reish and ayin. It means friend. What you say is a drash (and a good one, btw). What I said is based on pshat. Spouses are supposed to be each other’s loving friend.
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