November 28, 2010 6:41 pm at 6:41 pm #593244
The pressure being put on Rav Amsalem to recant his halachic views is incomprehensible and wrong.
First, Reb Moshe writes in OC 109 that any Rav who disagrees with his psak is not only allowed to pasken differently, but mechuyav to do so.
Second, this entire episode reminds me of the story in Brachos about how Rabban Gamliel tried to force Rebbe Yehoshua three times to recant his views, and to embarrass him for not doing so. He forced Rebbe Yehoshua to carry money on the day Rebbe Yehoshua said was Yom Kippur. He made him stand all day in the Beis Medrash for some other psak. Finally there was a rebellion and the Yeshiva decided that this behavior is unacceptable and they would have to depose Rabban Gamliel from his position as Nasi.
Why is our case any different? Over there, Rabban Gamliel had real authority, being the Nasi, and still it was not permitted to force his halachic views. Here, in our day, Rav Yosef, while a big Gadol, has no authority. And Rav Amsalem may be just as big in learning, and has written his own sefarim. Only the RBSH knows who is bigger.
Since when did it become unacceptable for a Talmid Chacham to learn a sugya, bring rayos for a position and pasken the way he sees fit?November 28, 2010 7:17 pm at 7:17 pm #714335
Please tell us more. Who is the Rabbi? What does he say? Who is pressuring him?November 28, 2010 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #714336
David Amsalem (Hebrew: ??? ??????; born on 4 September 1971 in Israel) is a retired Israeli footballer currently the coach of Beitar Jerusalem.
He started his career with Bnei Yehuda and then joined Hapoel Tel Aviv whom he played for during the 1994-1995 season. He became the second Israeli to join Crystal Palace following Itzik Zohar who left just as Amsalem was signing.
He played for Beitar Jerusalem for three seasons 1995-1998. He started six games for the Eagles and played in a total of ten games for them. He was released from Palace in 1999 and joined Hapoel Haifa who he played for until the end of the 1999-00 season.
He made his return to Beitar Jerusalem in 2000 and played there for 8 and a half seasons until he decided to retire in July 2009 to take on the spot of assistant coach for the club.November 28, 2010 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #714337
PY: You can make the same dreykup about the Reform. The so-called conversions Amsalem’s supports are hocus-pocus forgeries. When he attacks Torah learning, he removes himself from Klal Yisroel. And his being mevaze Talmidei Chachomim like Chachom Ovadi Yosef shlit”a, puts him in the category of an apikorus.November 28, 2010 7:57 pm at 7:57 pm #714338
Popa, it has been all over the frum news for a while now. This is just one article. It is a lot worse than this, with public statements and posters threatening him and emabrrassing him b’rabim.November 28, 2010 7:59 pm at 7:59 pm #714339
You leading the uprising in the
Why don’t you pose your questions to R’ Yosef Shlita directly.November 28, 2010 8:41 pm at 8:41 pm #714341Trying to be helpfulMember
PAPA HERE IS WHAT Wikipedia has to say about Chaim Amsalem how did David get into the picture?
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Redirected from Emil Amsalem)
Jump to: navigation, search
Date of birth 12 October 1959 (1959-10-12) (age 51)
Place of birth Oran, Algeria
Year of aliyah 1970
Knessets 17, 18
Party Independent (2010-)
Former parties Shas (2006-2010)
Rabbi Emil Haim Amsalem (Hebrew: ???? ??????, born 12 October 1959) is an Israeli politician and member of the Knesset. Elected on the Shas list, he currently sits as an independent.
Born in Oran in Algeria, Amsalem made aliyah to Israel in 1970. He underwent a rabbinical ordination, and qualified to serve as rabbi of a municipality. He was first elected to the Knesset in 2006, and retained his seat in the 2009 elections, having been placed tenth on the Shas list. In November 2010 he was expelled from the party, but refused to give up his seat.
Amsalem is married, has eight children and lives in JerusalemNovember 28, 2010 8:55 pm at 8:55 pm #714342
Myfriend, hmmm, can you show me where he was mevazeh Rav Yosef? Did he put up any pashkevilim calling Rav Yosef an Amaleki?November 28, 2010 8:59 pm at 8:59 pm #714343
Myfriend, my point is that paskening differently is not in any way being mevazeh somebody.November 28, 2010 9:05 pm at 9:05 pm #714344
Myfriend, please look at the beginning of Peah in the big shas, and see that at least one Rishon interprets the phrase Yafeh Talmud Torah Im Derech Eretz to mean that Derech Eretz is the ikar. In addition, in Kiddushin, it discusses the case where there is only money to hire a Rebbe for a son or a father, but not both. The gemara says it should be for the one with the most potential. Nobody is taking anybody out of klal yisroel for suggesting that many people need to work.November 28, 2010 9:18 pm at 9:18 pm #714345
Pashut: I think the topic of whether everybody should be learning their whole life is a good topic for discussion. I don’t know why you want to discuss it in the context of some politician getting in a spat with the head of his political party.
If you want to discuss the substance of the question, why get bogged down in the particulars of who was mevazeh who and who is from amalek.
trying: I just googled amsalem and that is what I got.November 28, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #714346
Myfriend, I do not go with his Talmud Torah shitos, but his opinion is in line with what the Satmar Rebbe and Rav Avigdor Miller held. I am yet to see evidence that he was mevaze Rav Yosef.
So, please, stop your outrageous Yeshivishe lies and ziyuf haTorah.November 28, 2010 10:12 pm at 10:12 pm #714347
Amsalem can have whatever opinions he chooses, so long he does not do so under the banner of being a Shas MP. Since Shas put hin 10th on their MP list and gave him his Kenesset seat conditional to his supporting the Shas program, if he breaks that pre-election agreement he made with Shas, he must resign that seat back to Shas.
Before Shas put him on their MP list and made him a Kenesset member, Amsalem was a nobody and no one heard or knew of him.November 28, 2010 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #714348ItcheSrulikMember
myfriend: Shas’s agenda was not given on har sinai.November 28, 2010 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #714349HelpfulMember
PY: Stephen King also wrote seforim. Amsalem’s seforim are no more kosher than King’s. And as you pointed out, only the RBS”O knows who’s bigger between King and Amsalem.November 29, 2010 2:33 pm at 2:33 pm #714350
Helpful, that is a totally inappropriate remark about Rav Amsalem. Does Stephen King know shas and poskim and cite rayos from them.
So right, where is the source for calling at the very least a kosher yid who is shomer Torah and Mitzvos a nobody? Did you ever hear of the concept of a tzaddik nistar? It is not our place to judge. We only deal with rayos, period.
What is interesting is that another site has the following quote from Rav Yosef (unfortunately without a reference) which shows that he holds the same way:
??? ????, ???? ??? ???? ?????? (?????? ???? ?? ??? ???, ????? ????? ????) ????? ???? (???????), ???? ????? (????? ?? ?????) ??? ???? ????
???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ????, ????? ???? ??? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????, ???? ????? ????? ????, ??? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ?????? ????? ????? ?’ ?????, ????? ???? ??? ???? ?’ ???????? ???????, ?????? ????? ?????? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ?????? ??????, ????? ??? ??? ??????, ????? ?? ????? ?????? ??????, ?????? ?? ????? ?????? ???? ????????,…???? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ??? ??? ????, ???? ?? ??? ??? ???? ???????, ??????? ?? ????? ?????, ???? ?? ????? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????
So the entire episode is unfortunately rooted in politics, and not in anything to do with halacha. It is a total disgrace.
More later.November 29, 2010 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #714351
“So the entire episode is unfortunately rooted in politics, and not in anything to do with halacha. It is a total disgrace.
Whatever it is rooted in, the only one who wants more, is the satan. More lashon hara. More sina. More disharmony and disunity.November 29, 2010 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #714352HelpfulMember
PY: You think its okay for you to say that “hey, maybe Mr. Amsalem is greater than Chacham Ovadia Yosef shlit”a, since only the RBS”O knows”, but its not okay to say “hey, maybe Mr. Amsaelm is on the same level as Stephen King, since only the RBS”O knows”?
The fact is semicha means little, it is not the unbroken semicha of yore, anyone can issue such a document or publish a sefer. It is furthermore a fact, that Mr. Amsalem would like to pretend Russian shotzim are Yidden and C”V allow these shkotzim to intermarry with Yidden. Additionally, Mr. Amsalem would like to drag Bnei Torah by their hair out of the Bais Medrash and away from the Torah HaKedosha.November 29, 2010 10:53 pm at 10:53 pm #714353
Helpful, I believe he has Rabbanut semicha which is the most rigorous set of tests anywhere, so at the very least he is a Talmid Chacham who knows how to learn.
But the bottom line here is that Shas has every right to kick him out of the party if he does not toe the party line. In some votes, members of Knesset are allowed to vote their conscience by the party chairman; while in others strict party discipline is enforced. One who votes differently can be expelled. The thing is that one is allowed to keep his seat and remain in the Knesset as an independent according to Knesset rules, whereas Shas wants him to resign and give the slot back to them so they can appoint another in his place. Of course, Shas has every right to be mad at him, but this is politics as usual. However, the problem here is when they start slandering him personally and publicly embarrass him and call him an apikorus and an Amaleki and say that he was makdiach tavshilo brabim, that is all completely unacceptable, and moreover, completely false.
As far as the issue of geirus, as I have written here before, due to the Soviet ban on Jewish education all those years, unfortunately many Jews intermarried. Now, one spouse wants to make Aliya which they are entitled to do according to Law of Return. What is the Israeli govt supposed to do? Admit one member of the couple and tell the other they must stay in Russia? That would be rather barbaric. So they do the proper thing and allow these relatives to enter. SOmetimes there may be non-Jewish children if the mother is not Jewish. These people are a potential cause of trouble and a bad influence. Rabbi AMsalem is spot on that the best eitzah would be to make ehrlich Jews out of them. It would require a serious and intense program of study, and methods to insure the sincerity and kabbalas hamitzvos of these potential geirim. There is nothing wrong for him to suggest that this would be a good idea, especially when the spouse or parent may be Jewish to begin with.
This problem was not caused by the State of Israel or Rabbi Amsalem. It was caused by the evil Soviets. The State of Israel and Rabbi AMsalem are trying to solve the problem that they have been handed.
What is your idea, if you disagree with them? I see only 3 choices:
1) Split up families if some members are not Jewish and force them to stay behind in Russia. (Barbaric.)
2) Try to convert the non-Jewish family members if they will sincerely be mekabel ol mitzvos. (State’s preferred solution.)
3) Let these non-Jewish immigrants live their lives in hefkerus and potentially influence Jewish kids for the worse. (Do nothing approach.)
I do not see any other options. If you do, please enlighten us.November 29, 2010 11:00 pm at 11:00 pm #714354
The hocus-pocus so-called “conversions” Amsalem and company advocate, do NOT include requiring a sincere mekabel ol mitzvos.November 29, 2010 11:16 pm at 11:16 pm #714355
I like the first choice, and I don’t find it barbaric. Nobody is forcing anyone to come.
The second choice and third choice are the same, since we are always willing to accept sincere gerim.November 29, 2010 11:56 pm at 11:56 pm #714356
Helpful, pull the Bnei Torah out of the Beis Medrashb by their hair? Stop your slander!! His shitos on the topic are in line with those of the Satmar Rebbe ztz”l and Rav Avigdor Miller ztz”l!
Beis Yosef also held something like that(Orach Chaim 156:1). Stop your right-wing lies!
About the geirus, Popa, I am not sure what exactly he holds, but there are kulos, if the husband’s teshuva hinges on his wife’s conversion. Plus, I am sure, the E.Y. Rabbonim are very machmir on the potential geirim. And I wonder, if it has to be that way.November 30, 2010 1:07 am at 1:07 am #714357
If he is advocating following halacha, then that is what the batei din are already doing. If he is advocating anything else…November 30, 2010 3:25 am at 3:25 am #714358
Following halacha is a vague term. There are Rabbonim who are known to be machmir and those known to be meikal and those in the middle. Rabbi Amsalem contends that what is happening is that potential Geirim in the IDF are expected to abide by every Chareidi chumra, otherwise they are rejected. And this is not what the Halocha says.November 30, 2010 3:26 am at 3:26 am #714359
And Israeli Chareidim have a lot of Chumros.November 30, 2010 4:54 am at 4:54 am #714360
If some of these so-called “geirim” from the IDF would even keep one Shabbos in their life (post-geirus), there may have been what to talk about.November 30, 2010 11:08 am at 11:08 am #714361
I see were still feeding the satan. He’s still hungry. A little more lashon hara about Rav Amsalem, the Rabbanut, Geirim and charedim in general, please.November 30, 2010 11:04 pm at 11:04 pm #714362
So right, you don’t seem to have any other approach, other than my option 3 (do nothing). So you are happy with the status quo. Many frum yidden are not, and think the current situation is a spiritual sakanah.
People like Rav Amsalem show that there are Rabbonim who are sensitive to the concerns of many of the hamon am, and are trying their best to come up with creative solutions that are within the bounds of halacha.
I would be willing to bet that if he creates a new party next election, he may get enough votes to get in. (Although I believe that recently the threshold was changed so one needs 3 seats, not 1 to get in.)November 30, 2010 11:18 pm at 11:18 pm #714363
I am slightly disturbed by your injecting considerations into a discussion of halacha. While halacha sometimes makes room for shaas hadchak, that is part of the halacha.
Presumably the rabbonim have already decided what he halacha should be in this case, and have accounted for the shaas hadchak. (Or not, if they do not think it exists- as I don’t.)
I don’t see how laymen’s, or politician’s opinions have any sound bearing.December 1, 2010 4:58 am at 4:58 am #714364
Popa, he wrote an entire sefer on geirus, from what I understand. He is no mere politician, but a big Talmid Chacham.
Just to note, the Rambam says modiin oso miktas mitvos kalos vchamuros, v’ein marbin v’ein medakdekin alav.
The Rambam also says bdieved if they forgot to tell him about the mitzvos, he is still a ger. Imagine, we all consider kabalas hamitzvos to be an ikar, but yet how can one be mekabel something if they forgot to tell him about it? So there is room to maneuver here.December 1, 2010 5:32 am at 5:32 am #714365
Baloney. You cannot make so-called geirim without telling them the mitzvos, knowing good and well the so-called “convert” will never keep even the most basic of mitzvos. Its a fake and it fools no one.December 1, 2010 2:42 pm at 2:42 pm #714366
Ok, let’s take your position for a moment.
So you will make these gerim who do not know what the mitzvos are, and have no intention of doing them. They become gerim, and don’t do any mitzvos. They die, and go to Hell. (I really can’t imagine any defense of tinok shenishba for someone who willingly accepts judaism, he at least knows and accepted to find out.)
Now, who is barbaric? Me or you?December 1, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #714367
If it is indeed known they are not going to keep mitsvos — of course, there is nothing to talk about.December 1, 2010 3:44 pm at 3:44 pm #714368
Popa-bar-abba, if there is no kabolas hamitsvos, they remain non-Jews. They are forbidden to intermarry with Jews, and that could mess up the yihus situation terribly.December 1, 2010 3:46 pm at 3:46 pm #714369
PY, learn the sugyos more. If a fellow says he wants to be a Jew, but does not mean to accept the mitsvos, he remains a non-Jew. No wild and dangerous heteirim, please!December 1, 2010 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #714370
What the Rambam means is that if no details of the mitsvos were explained to him, but he meant to accept the mitsvos in general , he becomes a Ger.December 1, 2010 5:18 pm at 5:18 pm #714371
I am not saying kabalas mitzvos is unnecessary. I am saying that we need to educate them to be mekabel. However, if they try sincerely, and fail on occasion, then we do not invalidate the geirus.
If they are only saying it but don’t mean to be mekabel, that is not a valid geirus.December 1, 2010 5:48 pm at 5:48 pm #714372
But who is barbaric? Your system is going to lead to alot of people who in your mind are jewish, but are not keeping mitzvos.
Why do you think it is nicer to them to make them gerim?December 1, 2010 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #714373twistedParticipant
“pull Bnei Torah out of the basi medrash by their hair” MDD it is not slander. It is the rant of small minded fundamentalist non thinkers that degenerates ultimately into name calling, lunatic paranoia and other good stuff leaking out the seams. If Helpful and his like are so confident in their madreiga that they are justified in leaving out Rav Amsalem’s title, I apologize.December 1, 2010 9:43 pm at 9:43 pm #714374TheChevraMember
Why don’t we see what Chacham Ovadia Yosef shlita recently said about Mr. Amsaelm. (Rav Yosef stripped him of his title):
Chacham Ovadia Yosef
Chacham Shimon Badni
Chacham Shalom Cohen
Chacham Moshe MeahDecember 2, 2010 1:00 am at 1:00 am #714375
TheChevra: “twisted” will then tell you that Rav Yosef and his like is the rant of small minded fundamentalist non thinkers that degenerates into lunatic paranoia and other good stuff leaking out the seams.
My response is that I take Rav Yosef’s opinion over “twisted” and his ilk’s.December 2, 2010 4:25 pm at 4:25 pm #714377
TheChevra and SoRight, This is exactly why I wrote the first post on the board about Rabban Gamliel. Rav Amsalem has every right to learn a sugya and come to his own conclusions and psak, as long as he follows the standard, traditional method of learning with all that that entails. Rather than slinging mud at him, why not find the particular halachic issue upon which the nekuda of the machlokes rests, and learn it like a mensch understanding both sides, just as with any sugya or chakira in shas.
For example, the issue of a ger who says verbally he is mekabel mitzvos, but is not likely to do so is a complex issue. Reb Moshe writes from his father that an anan sahadi that one would not keep the mitzvos renders the kabalas mitzvos and the conversion invalid. For example, if one spouse of an intermarried couple wants to convert, while the Jewish spouse himself does not keep mitzvos, then we must assume that the ger will not keep any more than the Jewish spouse, and hence it is invalid.
However, counterbalancing to this is the principle that devarim sheblev einam devarim. For example, if a person makes a declaration in court that he has no intention of keeping, it is binding (unless he can prove coercion or issued a modaa beforehand). Another example is a person saying Harei At Mekudeshes Li and giving a ring, and then saying I didn’t really mean it and I never intended to marry her. Obviously, he must give a get, since devarim sheb’lev einam devarim. There are teshuvos about Bar and Bas Mitzvah age kids who were playing around and said Harei At in front of witnesses, and sometimes they were told they had to give a get, I believe. Because of this, I seem to remember that some poskim hold if a potential ger makes a declaration that he will keep mitzvos, then that is what matters.
Note, I did not see Rav Amsalem’s sefer, but the sugya needs to be approached from the point of view of lomdus, not mudslinging. I have no idea what your heter to call him Mr. Amsalem is, unless it was verified that he is an apikorus. Arguing with Rav Yosef in halacha does not render him an apikorus. Why don’t you find out the specific root halachic issues about which they argue.
As far as his statement that not all people should be in learning full time, it seems that Rav Yosef holds that way himself. Don’t you understand that Shas is upset at him because if he says this, then maybe people will say that the govt is not obligated to support the Shas yeshivos or kollelim at the same level as before. This may be the core reason for the extreme anger at Rav Amsalem, even though Rav Yosef agrees halachically, he may feel that it should be kept hush-hush. So there are a lot of political machinations going on here behind the scenes. None of which make Rav Amsalem deserving of the calumny that has been thrown at him, including that he is the cause of the lack of rain in Israel.
As far as Chillul Hashem, the Hamon Am has the highest respect for his academic honesty, and far from being a Chillul Hashem, in my opinion it is a big Kiddush Hashem. The Hamon Am sees there is a Rabbi who understands their concerns, and is not afraid to say what he believes is the truth, despite it not being the politically expedient thing for him to do. Remember that Kiddush Hashem is defined by Mah habrioyos omrim alav, not mah hatalmidei chachamim omrim alav.December 2, 2010 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #714378
PY: I think there would be much less acrimony over the subject if people felt that R’ Amsalem was voicing his sincerely held opinions in hope of truly improving society l’shem Shamaim. If this would have been his true intentions there are better ways of accomplishing these goals then giving inflammatory interviews to the non/anti religious press. The impression created is that he is stabbing the community he is supposedly part of in the back to promote his own personal interests and to get attention.
I hope this is not true and he is simply being indiscrete rather then malicious. However I certainly understand why it rankles many people in the extreme, though I think calling him “Amalek” is out of line.December 2, 2010 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #714379
BTW: I have learned Hilchos Geirus extensively and there are no grounds in Halacha for what goes on in the Special Conversion Courts under R’ Druckman and certainly the IDF Conversion Courts that will gladly convert someone even if they know they have absolutely no intention of fulfilling any Mitzvos based solely on living in Israel and serving in the army. The only qualification for wanting to be part of the Jewish people in maintaining Halacha!December 3, 2010 4:30 am at 4:30 am #714380
Hello99, Just on a hashkafic basis, I once heard a Chareidi Rav say in Megillas Rus that the words Amech Ami come first, and then Elokayich Elokai. A person may be inspired to become part of the Jewish people initially without knowing anything about their religion or G-d. Later, they search more and are willing to accept the religious obligations.December 3, 2010 9:22 am at 9:22 am #714381
PY: That may be the natural way people become inspired, but in the dozens of seforim I learned regarding Hilchos Geirus not one would even consider such inspiration to replace kabbalas ol mitzvos.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.