October 28, 2017 9:02 pm at 9:02 pm #1391032
Is there any reason to refrain from buying furs because it encourages the slaughter of animals?
I’ll explain as follows, I’ll paraphrase it. Is there any reason to refrain from buying a cotton sweater, because it causes people to plant more cotton in the fields? Now if you don’t need that sweater, then you have no good reason for buying it. Whatever is not necessary you should not buy. If you need it you should buy it, and Hakadosh Baruch Hu is supplying you with the cotton. Cotton is a miracle. What’s cotton? Cotton is nothing but carbon dioxide with a little other chemicals mixed in, I can prove it.
Take a ball of raw cotton and set fire to it, it’s white and fluffy before, now it becomes black and it’s carbon. It’s all carbon, with a little bit of other chemicals mixed in. Where does it come from? It comes from the air, carbon dioxide from the air makes cotton. You’re wearing a cotton shirt? It’s mostly carbon dioxide with some sunshine mixed in. Cotton stockings, carbon dioxide. You want to try it? It’s a little bit expensive! Burn your stockings with a match and it turns into carbon dioxide, into charcoal. So you see it’s all carbon dioxide.
Now, if you need furs, then you can put on furs, and anybody who has pity on animals because he doesn’t want to use the furs, has pity on them, it’s a misunderstanding. Hashem said U’rdu, mankind can rule over all the animals of the world, if you need them you can use them. Anybody who refuses to eat meat because he has pity on the animals is not a wise man. Why should he have pity on animals, why not have pity on plants? On fish? He doesn’t eat animals, he eats fish, it makes no difference. But if you need them, Hashem said U’rdu, rule over them, you have the right to use them.
So therefore if you need a fur lined jacket, you need it, if you can get something that doesn’t have to have a fur lining, or you don’t want to spend much money, so tovo olecha brocho, blessed should you be for not wasting money. But if you have to spend the money you shouldn’t refrain just because the fur will come from some animal.October 28, 2017 10:21 pm at 10:21 pm #1391101👑RebYidd23Participant
The Torah tells us about tzaar baalei chaim. If listening to the Torah makes me a fool, so be it.October 28, 2017 10:24 pm at 10:24 pm #1391114Takes2-2tangoParticipant
I dont believe he was referring to the tzar baley chaim involved in aquiring certain types of fur. He meant as a general rule just luje cotton is fir clothing so is leather etc. He is not saying you can be mitzaer the animal to get fur.October 28, 2017 10:25 pm at 10:25 pm #1391119☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
RY, you don’t get to make up your own halachos deciding when tzaar baalei chaim applies and when it doesn’t.October 28, 2017 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #1391123
There is a difference between leather and fur. Leather is mostly made from animals killed for food. Animals that are killed for fur the meat is not eaten.
As far as Tzaar Baalei Chaim..Have you seen a fur trap. Basically its a trap with giant teeth that trap the animal until it dies. Schechita is a quick death for the animalOctober 28, 2017 11:37 pm at 11:37 pm #1391154yehudayonaParticipant
ZD, a lot of fur animals are farm-raised, so they’re obviously not trapped. According to a Wikipedia article on fur farming, the by-products (e.g. meat) are used in pet foods, etc., so while the meat isn’t eaten by humans, it doesn’t go to waste.October 29, 2017 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1391165
I have a little problem with this discussion.
Do we really believe that we are supposed to rule on this as if it s a new shayla. You know, the world has been around for thousands of years, and The Torah has also been with our people for thousands of years. There have been mane great Torah scholars over the years. The fur industry has also been around for thousands of years. So why are we pretending that we need to make up rulings on this ancient subject which already has all the ruling necessary. Gedolim throughout the generations have worn furs and allowed others to wear them. Have you seen the famous painting of The Chasam Sofer? He’s wearing a fur hat. And so too many many others. So who is the person here who thinks he is going to be a bigger gadol baTorah than any gadol Klal Yisroel ever had? Who thinks he should question their rulings.
So this conversation is silly, conceited and ridiculous.October 29, 2017 12:14 am at 12:14 am #1391160zaltzvasserParticipant
No, @yehudayona, they’re not trapped – they just nail the animals’ heads to a tree or pole (etc) and skin them alive. Voila – fur coat. Tzaar baalei chaim? I think so…October 29, 2017 1:33 am at 1:33 am #1391170
The famous Yaakov Yosef Herman of All for The Boss was a furrier.October 29, 2017 9:05 am at 9:05 am #1391203
I am fairly certain we are allowed to be more machmir on things than the torah allows.
A simple example is slavery. The torah allows it, but we have basically banned it
Also Eisha yofetz Toar nobody would seriously encourage that either
Minks are mostly farm raised, but other furs animals are trapped in the wildOctober 29, 2017 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1391275
We’re allowed to be more machmir on things than the Torah allows?!?
That’s going on a slippery slope… Chumros?!?!? Y’know… how did Chava….October 29, 2017 10:25 am at 10:25 am #1391221
Don’t be so certain. That’s the main problem today. They make issurim of things that aren’t assur but they therefore are matir things that are truly assur. Stealing, cheating, for these we find loophles, because everything is one big chulent with no differentiation between mutar and assur. So for everything we can get a heter because it’s a mishmash with things that are mutar to begin with.
No, that’s not the way. We must draw a clear line between mutar and assur. If someone want’s to be machmir, then he should clearly know that’s it is just a chumra, and he can’t impose it on others or even expect others to have that chumra.October 29, 2017 12:17 pm at 12:17 pm #1391319
The torah permits Polygamy and Rabbenu Gershom forbid itOctober 29, 2017 12:18 pm at 12:18 pm #1391312
So are you advocating the return of Slavery or Eishet Yofet Toar?October 29, 2017 2:29 pm at 2:29 pm #1391351
You and I are not Rabainu Gershom. You need to know your place. Furs have been used throughout all of the generations and no rabbis forbade it. That means they didn’t feel it’s wrong. So nothing changed and it isn’t wrong, period.
I have nothing against slavery, per se. Just we may not kidnap and capture people against their will, needless to say. But if a person want to sell himself as a slave, that would be fine if it would be legal in our country, necause we must abide by the laws of the country we live in. There are rules in The Torah about how to treat a slave.
Aishes Yefas Toar, is not a relevant discussion because we don’t have the situation today, which gives the possibility of it. Also Aishes Yefas Toar was always known to be a bad thing and only mutar as the biggest bidieved.October 29, 2017 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1391361
+1 Tom. The reason people have a hard time with it now is be in society at large it’s an issue and we get influenced by the goyim.October 29, 2017 2:30 pm at 2:30 pm #1391362
Little 🐸 – some see to have a attitude of chumras always being bad. Although it is true that being chamur on everything isn’t the way to go. There are some time we are usually for diorisas and times we are not usually for drabanans. In any important relationship like marriage you have to go above and beyond sometimes or it will not work. Same with our relationship with Hashem.October 29, 2017 5:07 pm at 5:07 pm #1391409
jj2020… You’re not from this area are you?
That was written tongue-in-cheek.. You may not know it… I used to frequent these places far more than I do now. Scratch that.. I used to LIVE HERE (gasp). And every once in awhile the discussion would turn to chumros… and then all of a sudden have half of the gang here shout and clamor about “those Rabbonim” how they “impose” their chumros… etc. etc. and blah blah. And then they would always, without fail, reiterate…”see where the first chumrah took us…”
So I just reversed the charges….October 29, 2017 5:45 pm at 5:45 pm #1391423
Little froggie – I didn’t realize. In case those people are around they could read what I wrote.October 29, 2017 7:21 pm at 7:21 pm #1391464
What someone chooses to be machmir on says alot about the person.
People who are cruel to animals are many times cruel to other human beings as wellOctober 29, 2017 9:22 pm at 9:22 pm #1391515
It isn’t cruel to use fur. Tzadikim who were full of kindness and compassion have used furs throughout the generations.October 30, 2017 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1392122yehudayonaParticipant
zaltzvasser, I think you’ve been taken in by PETA’s propaganda. Why would fur farmers do that when it would be easier to just gas the animals and skin them dead?November 24, 2017 12:11 pm at 12:11 pm #1411040divri hayamimParticipant
“People who are cruel to animals are many times cruel to other human beings as well”
societies who are murderous are usually protective of animals.
The most progressive country for animal rights in the 30’s was Nazi Germany.
The leading sponsor of a assisted suicide bill in the NY assembly is also arguably also the biggest animal rights support in the NY state assembly (Linda Rosenthal)
the leading pro abortion on demand crusader in the NY assembly, is the other person who is also arguably the biggest animal rights support in the NY state assembly (Deborah Glick)November 25, 2017 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #1411168GadolhadorahParticipant
The world has evolved and so have the majority of yidden. If a fur is used entirely for purposes of style and fashion (even if to emulate the style and fashion of a prior generation) engaging in the horrendous practice of trapping fur-bearing animals where they die horrific deaths is clearly being mechallel tzar baalei chayim. To waste thousands of dollars on fur streimlach is an inyan that has been debated many times previously. Perhaps those chassidus who for some reason still feel the need to wear streimlach (which is obviously their right) might consider feaux fur going forward.November 25, 2017 7:34 pm at 7:34 pm #1411182
GHadorah, Reform “Judaism” agrees with you.November 26, 2017 7:35 am at 7:35 am #1411427MTABParticipant
today we have factory farming which is incredibly cruel
i believe he’s talking about just stam using furNovember 28, 2017 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1414770SadigurarebbeParticipant
I believe Gur encourages fake fur shtriemelach. But let’s not pretend that it is ossur for a yid to benefit from the goyim killing animals for fur.November 28, 2017 7:29 pm at 7:29 pm #1414776
-how did I miss that line “mechallel tzar baalei chayim” ?!?
I guess the other guys have kedushas baalei chayim..November 30, 2017 8:04 am at 8:04 am #1415793my own kind of jewParticipant
You listed 2 examples of countries there. that does not by any means come close to saying that “societies that are murderous are often kind to animals” just that those specific ones were.
And just because a horrific society does something, that doesn’t automatically make it wrong. Or are you going to tell me worshiping God is wrong because societies that did also murdered millions, oftentimes in Gods name?
And i would definitely not classify a society like nazi germany, which killed and tortured millions because they didn’t think they deserved the same treatment as others, with a supporter of “assisted suicide’ where the whole reasoning behind it is to try and help those who are so in pain that life itself has no meaning to them anymore. you can certainly argue that she’s wrong, and that there are better, less permanent ways to help them, but to imply that allowing assisted suicide is an equivalent to nazism is, I believe, a serious wrong.November 30, 2017 8:52 am at 8:52 am #1415849
Allowing assisted suicide is no different than allowing murder. Suicide is murder.November 30, 2017 6:39 pm at 6:39 pm #1416420benignumanParticipant
Animal rights is a separate subject from tzar balei chaim.
Animals do not have any rights in halacha or American law. Humans have rights and responsibilities. Some human responsibilities are related to the proper treatment of animals. Halachically, this includes avoiding tzar balei chaim. But the halacha is chal on the human not on the animal.
Saying tzar balei chaim is because of animal rights is like saying shatnez is because of wool and linen rights.
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