Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg & Baseball

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  • #602848

    shmoel
    Member

    I just read, over Yom Tov, this story about Rav Chaim Pinchos Scheinberg once made a kiddush that no one knew the reason for. So some talmidim asked him what was the occasion. He replied, whenever someone mentioned that the Yankees won a game I felt a tiny bit happy to hear that. Just recently someone mentioned that the Yankees won the World Series, and I didn’t have even the slightest feeling of happiness. I can B”H say that these goyishe sporting events no longer have any effect on me!

    And from this, said the R”Y, we can learn to never even start following goyishe sports. As even many years later when you are no longer following them, it can still have, an ever so slight, influence on yourself.

    #867039

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The Yankees havent won the world Series since 2009

    #867040

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    There is someone who goes to my Shul who is from Boston area. Around the time of the Super Bowl I brought up the game. he told me he wasnt a fan

    He then told me most of the Rebbeim from Boston WERE sports fans AND they use it for Kiruv.

    He said its alot easier to approach people for Kiruv using sports than it is with Chiddusim.

    #867041

    Toi
    Participant

    so youre friend is a bigger authority on whats good for the neshama than R Scheinberg ztl. Do you realize how obtuse you sound?

    #867042

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shmoel: That’s a misrepresentation of what happened. What actually happened was in 2009, R’ Sheinberg ZTZ”L made a Se’udas Hoda’ah when the Yankees won the World Series. His son explained that it must be that he was happy that he finally felt nothing when the Yankees won. However, Rav Scheinberg himself never explained why and, when I personally asked him if the story was true and what the real reason was, he didn’t answer.

    #867043

    Toi: You are the obtuse one. Rav Scheinberg is talking about someone whose tafkid is to have his mind absorbed exclusively in Torah; a Rosh Yeshivah like himself. A kiruv proffesional needs to be up to date on the information they need to do kiruv. Use your mind before being rude.

    #867044

    simcha613
    Participant

    Come on, he’s not saying he’s a bigger authority than R’ Scheinberg. Sports has no inherent value, but sometimes it can be used as a mean towards an end like kiruv. For what R’ Scheinberg was doing in life, he had no need for sports, so it was his achrayus to remove it from his heart because there was no point. For someone in kiruv or even highschool (and younger) Rebbeim, it may have a constructive purpose.

    #867045

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    That’s funny, I was just talking to my shvugger the other day about R’ Scheinberg who he was close with when he was in Torah Ohr. I asked him about the validity of this story. He told me that once the Rosh HaYeshiva was speaking with a group of “modern” American boys and he mentioned that when he is in New York and sees the papers announcing that the Yankees won, he still would get a little excited.

    #867046

    Yserbius123
    Participant

    As for the “Seudas Hoda’ah” I’ve heard various versions of that since 2000, so I doubt that it happened at all, and certainly not in 2009 as Sam2 postulates.

    #867047

    Czar
    Member

    The Yanks won the championship in ’96, ’98, ’99, ’00, ’01, ’03, and ’09 (just looking at recent history.) So it could have happened in any number of years.

    #867048

    Sam2
    Participant

    Yserbius: The story I heard said the 2009 World Series. When I spoke to Rav Sheinberg I don’t think I mentioned the year. I just said that I heard there was a story about him making a Se’udas Hoda’ah when the Yankees won the World Series and wanted to know if it was true and if it was what he had in mind when making the Se’udah. He didn’t want to talk about it.

    #867049

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    This is just a guess on my part

    Could it be that Rav Scheinberg told the boys it it was a Se’udas Hoda’ah for the “Yankees” in order to get them to come to this Seuda for whatever reason (Someetimes I know Godols have used “excuses” like this to prevent averiahs and engage people.)

    he did not want to talk about it because he wasnt endorsing the game and didnt want to seem like he did , but didnt want to reveal his plan either

    #867050

    shmoel
    Member

    This is a well known story. And the reason is well known too by his talmidim. There is no secret. It can be verified with them or his children. He was happy that he finally got the tumah of professional sports out of his heart.

    #867051

    morahmom
    Participant

    You have to remember that the Rosh Yeshiva, zatzal, lived in E”Y since the 1960’s. He lived in Mattersdorf, a neighborhood with Americans who did not seek an “American neighborhood.” Nor did he want an American style yeshiva.

    He had no reason to be involved with American sports, other than the fact that he was raised in the US. In Boston, it’s quite a different story.

    #867052

    Shmoel – who said he was happy about finally getting the “TUMAH” of professional sports out of his heart?? (I think you made up the “tumah” part) Maybe he was just happy to have the ‘distraction’ out, or to reach a level of Prishus and Kedusha of having a heart fully devoted to Avodas Hashem.

    That’s why I think this story is not necessarily a proof that no one should ever start following sports. For some people it’s good to follow sports. It’s a raya that when you’re a gadol on R’ Scheinberg’s level, then, you should be happy to not be following sports.

    #867053

    Czar
    Member

    Dovvshtein: Based on that taaina, perhaps one need not strive to learn as much Torah as Rav Scheinberg, unless he is a godol on Rav Scheinberg’s level.

    #867054

    nfgo3
    Member

    Some posters have referred to “goyishe sports”. Can anyone name any “yiddishe sports”?

    #867055

    GeshmakMan
    Participant

    Czar – can you please enlighten us and tell us who the Yankees beat in the World Series in 2001 and 2003?

    Its probably not important to the story/topic, but at least get your facts right!

    #867056

    Umm no sorry incorrect that’s a fallacious deduction.

    A person “need not strive” for PRISHUS until he’s holding on the madraga for it.

    #867057

    Czar
    Member

    GeshmakMan – Sorry, those two years they were only league title winners. All the other years mentioned, they were world champs. Thanks for the correction. The point, though, still stands.

    #867058

    Toi
    Participant

    to those who bashed me- a thread started about how R scheinberg was happy when he felt he lost his connection to sports. What shaychis does zdads post have in praising sports? ela meiy- he means to say that although R scheinberg held one way, sports can have their uses. He shouldve started a thread on how to do kiruv.

    #867059

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Dovvshtein: Based on that taaina, perhaps one need not strive to learn as much Torah as Rav Scheinberg, unless he is a godol on Rav Scheinberg’s level.

    Does that mean you should also wear 100 pairs of Tzizit?

    #867060

    RABBAIM
    Participant

    Kedoshim Tihyu- Perushim Tihyu is a Mitzvah not a madreiga

    #867061

    RABBAIM- So how come prishus is the 13th perek of msilas y’sharim coming after z’hirus, z’rizus, and n’kiyus? and it’s linked with chasidus (going lifnim mishuras hadin)?

    Maybe do some research before rattling off mitzvos out of context.

    13th perek look it up.

    Prishus is a madreiga. It’s something you do when you’re holding by it, not like tzitzis and t’filin that you do no matter what.

    #867062

    shmoel
    Member

    D. Dovshtein: A man learning Torah 12 solid hours every single day or a woman doing Bikur Cholim 12 solid hours every single day is both a mitzvah and a madreiga.

    Don’t ever tell anyone not to learn 12 hour every single day or not to do Bikur Cholim 12 hours every single day.

    And don’t ever tell anyone being a fan of professional sports is not a negative.

    #867063

    “D. Dovshtein: A man learning Torah 12 solid hours every single day or a woman doing Bikur Cholim 12 solid hours every single day is both a mitzvah and a madreiga.

    Don’t ever tell anyone not to learn 12 hour every single day or not to do Bikur Cholim 12 hours every single day.”

    Shaychus to anything I said? (besides the fact that you’re wrong)

    #867064

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    I just got back from a Mets game and there were ALOT of Frum People there. I must have seen at least 100 of them

    #867065

    Sam2
    Participant

    Shmoel: Being a sports fan is not inherently a negative. In fact, if one watches sports so that he can recharge and return to Avodas Hashem even better then his sports fandom is also Avodas Hashem.

    #867066

    DJHocker
    Member

    I also just got back from the Mets game. There were alot more than 100 jews there. There had to be close to 350. There were 4 different Minyanim for Maariv.

    #867067

    jdb
    Participant

    Whichever way you take this story, the bottom line is that gedolim started out like you or me, which is to say that we have the potential.

    On that note, I went to sports games (Mets games) with my Rebbe when I was already in beis medrash. He was a big fan and enjoyed the occasional break (once or twice a season). Not everyone has to hold themselves to the level of a gadol, and we cannot disparage people for not taking on all of the ma’alos of gedolim.

    #867068

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    Sam2: bittul Torah, bittul zman, hayadayim yedei Eisav, moshav leitzim, lo sachoneim… Which one of them is “not inherently a negative”?

    #867069

    MorahRach
    Member

    Why is baseball or other sports so bad? I’m actually asking I hate when everyone attacks discourages and demean people here. If you are not becoming overly obsessed, and letting results truly effect your life why not? I think sporting events can be a great bonding experience for father and son, brothers, or even families. Obviously when you have someone checking stats ( like I sometimes do when a giant game is on) very 2 minutes, and screaming/cursing at refs calls and letting losses ruin their days fine I can see why obsessions like those are extreme. But to say that sports in general are all negative and we shouldn’t watch I don’t understand. I am obviously not a Posek and no one on here is a big gadol I assume so for us why can’t we like sports?

    I also know of a number of frum couples who went to Yankees/jets whatever games after they had been dating for a while..?

    #867070

    Loyal Jew
    Member

    MorahRach, throwing a baseball (or rolling a bowling ball, etc.) isn’t “so bad.” It’s just that one can’t do it, or watch others do it, without being over on important points of halacha, hashkafa, or both, causing Hashem anguish. Isn’t that reason enough to stay away from it? Here in EY no one who calls himself frum even tries to justify it.

    #867071

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    People dont seem to know the difference between Halacha and Hashkafa.

    Most of the people I saw at the game were Yeshivish (Not even MO) but I dont think ive ever saw Chassidim at a Mets game (Maybe they are Yankee fans and go there , I dont know)

    Certainly If I saw Rav Sheinberg at a Baseball game I would be taken a little aback, but for a normal person not really.

    One is not Allowed to Daven in a place of Tumah, and as DHocker said, He saw 4 Minyanim there (There might have been more) Ive seen Minyanim at the game, In fact Ive even seen Minyanim in the stands.

    DJ Hockers numbers are probably more correct than mine as I was mostly at field level where the tickets were higher priced

    If your Hashkafa is not to go, that is fine and nobody is forcing you to go, but dont claim its ASSUR or anything. It is ASSUR to declare something ASSUR when in fact it Muttar.

    But of course you are free to take a personal vow not to go.

    #867072

    cheftze
    Member

    You are not disturbed by the cursing, profanity, pritzus, immorality, vildkeit, etc at these games?

    #867073

    haltheman
    Member

    THHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

    YANKEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

    WIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!

    #867074

    MorahRach
    Member

    Not really. I’m not standing there screaming like a madman and cursing and what not. Some people get very passionate and heated at these games who cares. It’s a hobby. I hear what you are saying but if it’s not for you then just don’t go to the games right? Instead of telling everyone it’s “assur”.

    #867075

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    What immorality or Pritzus occurs at a game? Even the Players are dressed Tzniut with arms and legs covered.

    As far as cursing, that occurs everywhere. I dont have to go to a game to hear that, Just ride the busses or subways or drive a car and cut someone off.

    #867076

    cheftze
    Member

    The fans in the stands engaging in profanity and dressed pritzusdik.

    #867077

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    The fans in the stands engaging in profanity and dressed pritzusdik.

    Dont Ride the Subway especially in the Summer, The D and F Trains go to the Beaches in Coney Island

    #867078

    cheftze
    Member

    You have a heter if going to work, since you need parnassa. That doesnt apply to going to stadiums.

    Also, you are not sitting next to these profane people for three hours on the D or F train. And you can usually move if there is a problem. Its not half as bad on a train as sitting among beer-guzzling crazed sports fans.

    #867079

    Israeli Chareidi
    Participant

    zahavasdad & DJHocker:

    When I was younger I used to daven in a shul full of frum people and there were close to 200 of them who talked during chazoras hashatz.

    Don’t judge Judaism by the Jews – judge Judaism by the Torah and Halacha. (paraphrased from R’ Asher Wade)

    #867080

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    And for the record, most people are actually dressed more tzniutly at a game than elsewhere.

    Many people (I dont though) wear a Jersey of their favorite players and Football and Baseball Jerseys and these are Tzniut.

    No SANE person dressed Untzniut at a Football game,especially in November and December

    #867081

    MorahRach
    Member

    In the warm months, the grocery stores, malls, Cvs, target, gas stations, DMV every single place you go can be full of people dressed untznius. Its where we live. There is no Meah shearim in the us. Maybe I’m just not gettin it but sportin events in my opinion are no more untznius or full of pritzus then most other places. It’s not for everyone for sure but no one that frequents THIS blog should be telling others it’s assur an that they are wron for going to sporting events.

    #867082

    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Just ask your Rav how many Averos all those people at yesterday and Todays Mets (I am sure there were alot today as well, they had the $2.50 tickets) game committed.

    You dont have to go , but dont tell people its assur and that things like Prizus and immorality occur, when they dont (especially Sunday Afternoon games when there are ALOT of Kids there, including Frum kids)

    #867083

    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    Don’t ever tell anyone not to learn 12 hour every single day or not to do Bikur Cholim 12 hours every single day.

    And don’t ever tell anyone being a fan of professional sports is not a negative.

    If you see somebody learning 12 hours a day, that’s not necessarily a good thing.

    Being a sports fan, is not necessarily a negative.

    #867084

    Toi
    Participant

    learning twelve hours a day is good. anyone can be ocd, the way you do it doesnt mean that thing is wrong

    zdad- your points are so zeitig im thinking youre a troll.

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