- This topic has 33 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 3 years, 3 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
After 54 replies to this topic, mine would not get seen. So I’ll start over.
The central question is, given the mainstream media slant, how would most of the country know if an election was stolen.
Here’s how… evidence. You would look at Georgia. There were claims of fraud. TWO recounts were done under supervision of both parties. The vote count didn’t change. If there was double counting, or ballots thrown out, or ballots that should not have been used, that would have been discovered in a hand recount.
You would look at the Republican Secretary of State’s long press conferences without the filter of “news”, in full, and listen to what he said. You would see that he debunked every nonsensical theory and lie, and that he supported Trump and campaigned for Trump. For example… that 11,000 felons votes who should not have. In fact, there were 74, and each of those is being investigated, and it’s likely that those people were allowed to vote because their sentence was complete or their names were mixed up (my name was mixed up with a felon and I had to get my voting rights restored).
You would watch the press conferences of Trump’s lawyers as they make allegations, and go read the pleadings they file in court. You’d see that those pleadings don’t match the press conferences. And you’d see that many of those lawsuits were withdrawn by Trump’s lawyers themselves. Then you’d read the decisions of the judges (especially the Trump-appointed judges) throwing those cases out. Those opinions are dozens of pages long and have a thorough review of the proffered allegations and the legal reasoning to throw them out.
You would look at the hypocrisy. You would see the the Republican legislature of Pennsylvania expanded absentee and mail-in voting 8-10 months before the election (because COVID), and then THEY questioned the constitutionality of their own laws AFTER Trump lost (though they won their seats). You would also see that Texas made the same changes as Pennsylvania, but no one is complaining about Texas because Trump won Texas.
You would see that there are errors and instances of voter fraud and election fraud in every election, and that those instances are in the hundreds nationally and they are prosecuted. You would see the prosecutions and not pretend that they don’t exist.
You would go to the websites of the Secretaries of State and look at the vote counts for yourself. You’d see that the total number of votes is lower than the total amount of registered voters, even on a county-by-county basis. For there you could see whether claims about more people voting in a county or precinct than live there is possible. And you would compare the numbers presented by Trump and his people and see that they’re wrong.
You would follow up on stories and check the sources. You’d see that “garbage bags full of Trump votes” is “garbage bags full of incorrectly completed ballots that had to be destroyed, and there is no evidence of who those people voted for.”
You would understand that counting votes is not a baseball game, where people “take the lead” or “catch up.” All of the votes are cast, then all of the votes are counted. The totals are what they are. It’s like the question in the Gemara in Berachos whether you can daven after you hear a scream in your town. No… you can’t. Because whatever happened has already happened. You just have to go to town and see what happened. You can’t daven for a good grade after you’ve taken the test.
You would look at whether there is sufficient verification of voters at the polls, and see whether voter ID was required. And see that it was… in Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Nevada (to one degree or another).
You would look at reality… that Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by 2.8 million votes, and won the election through the electoral college by a total of 80,000 votes in 3 states. You would also see that his approval rating (even in conservative polls) never passed 50%, and was usually in the low 40s. You would see that Trump was a drag on Republicans in 2018. You would see the numerous well-known Republicans and conservatives who supported Biden. And you would see that Trump, which he received more votes than he did in 2016, lost by 7 million votes to a person who received more votes than any candidate in American history.
In short… you would use the resources available to you and not take any media at face value. You would use your powers of reasoning. Just like Democrats did in 2016… who could not believe that Trump legitimately won an election. But after investigation found that yes, the vote count was accurate, even if you don’t like the electoral college or the foreign influence on American viewpoints.
To Healthh – every single piece of “proof” of election fraud that you presented I have personally debunked. If you want to go through it again for everyone to see, create a post with each claim and your source for the claim and the evidence supporting it. And I will respond.
You are responding to the wrong question.
The question was, “How would we know if there was fraud?”
The question you are answering is, “How do we know that there was no fraud?”
The current election system makes fraud easy to commit, easy to get away with, extremely difficult to detect and likely to remain unknown to have occurred.
Most countries verify voter registration eligibility and more importantly require ID when voting. America by and large does not. Mail in vote fraud especially prone to occur without detection.
The short answer is “We” wouldn’t. None of us (at least most of us) Do not have the the ability to investigate claims ourselves. Sure We can see a lcip claiming to show Discarded ballots for Trump as “proof” that those were illegally discarded or accept the explanation that those were improperly filled out therefore discarded, bu t none of us really know.
The longer answer is to put all the facts together and come to the more reasonable conclusion:
Scenario A. A President whose approval rating has never crossed 50%, who “oversaw” the deaths of hundreds of thousands in a pandemic that he admitted to have downplayed (if he was actually responsible for deaths is irrelevant) , where most economic markers are worse than when he started office (Not necessarily his fault), actually lost the election as was predicted by almost all polls going into the election. and in order to save face, as he said “I Don’t lose well” alleged fraud took place as he said he would before the election took place both in 2020 AND in 2016 as well as in primary races he lost.
or
Scenario B. The Democrats coordinated efforts to steal 6 states elections, but left the Senate in deadlock (not to raise suspicion I guess) lost seats in the house. Trump’s AG, head of election cybersecurity, as well as many Republican appointed judges not to mention most senators and congressmen, As well As Republican officials in those stolen states are in on to too.
Trump of course knew the election was being stolen, yet Inexplicably instead of hiring real lawyers to litigate these cases, perhaps people who specialize in election law (Like Gore and Bush did during a real case) Trump chose to hire incompetent Showboaters who are great and talking big but clearly were not going to deliverIs scenario B POSSIBLE? of course!
is it more likely ? of course not“You would go to the websites of the Secretaries of State and look at the vote counts for yourself. You’d see that the total number of votes is lower than the total amount of registered voters, even on a county-by-county basis. For there you could see whether claims about more people voting in a county or precinct than live there is possible. And you would compare the numbers presented by Trump and his people and see that they’re wrong.”
I’ve already said my point regarding this but for fun I’ll do it again
Those states have “same day registration” and if you look there are thousands of people who registered if not hundreds of thousands of same day registration which if you took those out would make Trump win (and who would vote the same day as registration? The Democrats “can’t go to the voting booth” and republicans would have been fully charged to vote and make sure they were registered before then
Bravo to OrechDin on a well thought out and logical post. I share the frustration that people don’t bother reading more than a sound bite. Any dissenters at this point in the game you are not going to change their minds, because they are willing to turn away from emes to back their candidate. It’s a tough call personally whether to bother trying to enage people like health when they don’t bother reading or responding to rational comments anyway.
Er – in all fairness that applies equally to people on both sides of the issue. There has been no difference in willingness to listen, research or dialogue
From either side. The inability for people to see that has been most baffling and yes, frustrating.Voter fraud is easy to get away with. Especially since Democrats fight tooth and nail against even *investigating” it.
Syag – “in all fairness that applies equally to people on both sides of the issue.”
Yes, I suppose I could be stubborn since my mind is made up. But it’s made up based on facts such as the ones OrechDin points out and Ubiquitin, in post #1939864 above. Whereas to the frustrations of many, allegations of fraud are not backed up. And while yes, it’s hard for me and you to prove conclusively, no one seems to confront the reality or address that the recounts, data, testimony of experts, etc. belies any major fraud. So in the end if it’s just a hypothetical “well you never know.” Fine. But for some reason that hypothrtical concern of election fraud never flared up in 2016 when Trump won, or for Obama’s victories for that matter. Why? Because it was Trump who pushed this after he lost, and he’ll take things as far as he can, as we’ve seen.
Could you agree with that to any extent?An interesting side note
I was listening to the radio on a Sunday and the person was saying that there were studies done and political views isn’t based on logic instead it’s based on emotions which is why people get worked up and don’t listen to opposing “facts”
can people stop saying that Biden got more votes than any previous candidate, unless they mention that trump also did?
also can people stop saying that Biden won by a large margin? (don’t recall if this is relevant to this thread) the number I think was about 2% or so. that’s not large especially if you consider how much comes from N.Y. and ca.
“Especially since Democrats fight tooth and nail against even *investigating” it.”
Liar. The Pennsylvania Attorney General, a Democrat, found three cases of vote fraud in his state and is seeing that the culprits are prosecuted. It turned out that all three are Trump supporters.
Biden won by a 4.4% margin.
As to the ridiculous question of how can you know there is no election fraud, this is a fundamentally ridiculous question as it is asking you to prove something that is impossible to prove.
All that we know is there has been no valid evidence of fraud presented. OrechDin summed it up very well. If you still persist in lies, then like Lyndsay Graham, a fanatic Trump supporter, said about this there is simply no convincing you.
Excellent point that saying there is no fraud is impossible to prove. I wonder why so many of you keep saying it. 🤔🤔🤔
But never question why people persist in lying about election fraud. Typical.
And don’t admit you put your foot in your mouth
TypicalOh Charlie, -“Liar. The Pennsylvania Attorney General, a Democrat, found three cases of vote fraud in his state and is seeing that the culprits are prosecuted. It turned out that all three are Trump supporters.”
Don’t be so sure of yourself!
The WSJ lists a bunch of States that the Fraud possibly has occurred.
I’m just quoting Pa.:
“Pennsylvania
Sen. Josh Hawley (R., Mo.) and some other Republicans have questioned the validity of a 2019 state law called Act 77, which granted every Pennsylvania voter the option to request and cast a mail ballot, along with other changes. Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled Legislature and Democratic governor backed the law.
Mr. Hawley has said the Pennsylvania Constitution requires all votes to be cast in person, with narrowly defined exceptions. Mr. Hawley also said that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court threw out a lawsuit by U.S. Rep. Mike Kelly (R., Pa.) without hearing the merits, which he said violated its own precedent, according to an email Mr. Hawley sent to other Republican senators that was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court unanimously dismissed Mr. Kelly’s lawsuit on Nov. 28. The court’s three-page opinion observed that the congressman waited more than a year after the mail-in ballot law was enacted—and after Mr. Biden had won—to file his claim. “Millions of Pennsylvania voters had already expressed their will in both the June 2020 Primary Election and the November 2020 General Election and the final ballots in the 2020 General Election were being tallied, with the results becoming seemingly apparent,” the court said. To grant Mr. Kelly’s claim now “would result in the disenfranchisement of millions of Pennsylvania voters,” the court said.
Mr. Kelly filed an emergency application asking the U.S. Supreme Court to block Pennsylvania from certifying the election results. The court denied that request on Dec. 8. Still pending is Mr. Kelly’s appeal of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision; the state has until Jan. 14 to file its response to the U.S. Supreme Court. Under normal procedures, Mr. Kelly would have 14 days to file a reply brief, after which the case would be scheduled for the court’s conference, the private meeting where the justices decide which cases to hear.”Orech din,
Did you ever go to that website I posted in your other thread?
The fake news call outs have become the fake news. Fox won’t stop, it’s been going on for at least since 08. Be smarter, don’t believe everything you hear.
Orech din,
I’m wondering since it might have made sense pre pandemic but during a pandemic who’s registering same day?
Democrats are “scared” of the virus which was why they had mail in voting
Republicans mostly aren’t scared of the virus so they should have registered early
Anyways it does seem odd that SO MANY PEOPLE decided to register and vote same day
Also wondering,
I heard on the radio that Trump won 84% of all counties
Is this true, if so how could he lose?
Donald trump is a fascist crazy person.
“I could shoot someone in middle of fifth avenue”
“If russias listening find Hillary’s emails”
Are these the statements of a normal person?
Yes he lost the election duh
Is this true, if so how could he lose?
The election is not won by the victor of most counties…
So if more populous counties tend towards Biden (which makes sense, since urban areas tend to be Democrat-leaning), the overall vote could still go to Biden.
Basically, whoever said that is cherry picking a statistic which would make one think Trump won, although it does not really indicate that he did.
Dy
Correct
OD -“But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”
I never heard such Haughtiness!
Do you think you are a US Supreme Court Justice?!?
From previous:
“Still pending is Mr. Kelly’s appeal of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision; the state has until Jan. 14 to file its response to the U.S. Supreme Court. Under normal procedures, Mr. Kelly would have 14 days to file a reply brief, after which the case would be scheduled for the court’s conference, the private meeting where the justices decide which cases to hear.”OD -“But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”
“Wait… it’s haughtiness to AGREE with a state (commonwealth) supreme court and every other court up and down the federal and state court systems, including the US Supreme Court that already refused to hear this case when brought on an earlier appeal?”My point was, which a Baal Gaiva like you can’t possibly understand, it’s not whether you agree or not.
My point was this – your post is – “But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”.
How in the world would you know if it’s correct or not?
The SCOTUS didn’t judge up on the case yet.
In other words – you Can’t say it’s Correct until we have an Answer from SCOTUS!
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.