January 18, 2021 9:30 am at 9:30 am #1939793
After 54 replies to this topic, mine would not get seen. So I’ll start over.
The central question is, given the mainstream media slant, how would most of the country know if an election was stolen.
Here’s how… evidence. You would look at Georgia. There were claims of fraud. TWO recounts were done under supervision of both parties. The vote count didn’t change. If there was double counting, or ballots thrown out, or ballots that should not have been used, that would have been discovered in a hand recount.
You would look at the Republican Secretary of State’s long press conferences without the filter of “news”, in full, and listen to what he said. You would see that he debunked every nonsensical theory and lie, and that he supported Trump and campaigned for Trump. For example… that 11,000 felons votes who should not have. In fact, there were 74, and each of those is being investigated, and it’s likely that those people were allowed to vote because their sentence was complete or their names were mixed up (my name was mixed up with a felon and I had to get my voting rights restored).
You would watch the press conferences of Trump’s lawyers as they make allegations, and go read the pleadings they file in court. You’d see that those pleadings don’t match the press conferences. And you’d see that many of those lawsuits were withdrawn by Trump’s lawyers themselves. Then you’d read the decisions of the judges (especially the Trump-appointed judges) throwing those cases out. Those opinions are dozens of pages long and have a thorough review of the proffered allegations and the legal reasoning to throw them out.
You would look at the hypocrisy. You would see the the Republican legislature of Pennsylvania expanded absentee and mail-in voting 8-10 months before the election (because COVID), and then THEY questioned the constitutionality of their own laws AFTER Trump lost (though they won their seats). You would also see that Texas made the same changes as Pennsylvania, but no one is complaining about Texas because Trump won Texas.
You would see that there are errors and instances of voter fraud and election fraud in every election, and that those instances are in the hundreds nationally and they are prosecuted. You would see the prosecutions and not pretend that they don’t exist.
You would go to the websites of the Secretaries of State and look at the vote counts for yourself. You’d see that the total number of votes is lower than the total amount of registered voters, even on a county-by-county basis. For there you could see whether claims about more people voting in a county or precinct than live there is possible. And you would compare the numbers presented by Trump and his people and see that they’re wrong.
You would follow up on stories and check the sources. You’d see that “garbage bags full of Trump votes” is “garbage bags full of incorrectly completed ballots that had to be destroyed, and there is no evidence of who those people voted for.”
You would understand that counting votes is not a baseball game, where people “take the lead” or “catch up.” All of the votes are cast, then all of the votes are counted. The totals are what they are. It’s like the question in the Gemara in Berachos whether you can daven after you hear a scream in your town. No… you can’t. Because whatever happened has already happened. You just have to go to town and see what happened. You can’t daven for a good grade after you’ve taken the test.
You would look at whether there is sufficient verification of voters at the polls, and see whether voter ID was required. And see that it was… in Georgia, Wisconsin, Arizona, Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Nevada (to one degree or another).
You would look at reality… that Trump lost the popular vote in 2016 by 2.8 million votes, and won the election through the electoral college by a total of 80,000 votes in 3 states. You would also see that his approval rating (even in conservative polls) never passed 50%, and was usually in the low 40s. You would see that Trump was a drag on Republicans in 2018. You would see the numerous well-known Republicans and conservatives who supported Biden. And you would see that Trump, which he received more votes than he did in 2016, lost by 7 million votes to a person who received more votes than any candidate in American history.
In short… you would use the resources available to you and not take any media at face value. You would use your powers of reasoning. Just like Democrats did in 2016… who could not believe that Trump legitimately won an election. But after investigation found that yes, the vote count was accurate, even if you don’t like the electoral college or the foreign influence on American viewpoints.
To Healthh – every single piece of “proof” of election fraud that you presented I have personally debunked. If you want to go through it again for everyone to see, create a post with each claim and your source for the claim and the evidence supporting it. And I will respond.January 18, 2021 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1939848
You are responding to the wrong question.
The question was, “How would we know if there was fraud?”
The question you are answering is, “How do we know that there was no fraud?”January 18, 2021 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1939859ujmParticipant
The current election system makes fraud easy to commit, easy to get away with, extremely difficult to detect and likely to remain unknown to have occurred.
Most countries verify voter registration eligibility and more importantly require ID when voting. America by and large does not. Mail in vote fraud especially prone to occur without detection.January 18, 2021 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1939864ubiquitinParticipant
The short answer is “We” wouldn’t. None of us (at least most of us) Do not have the the ability to investigate claims ourselves. Sure We can see a lcip claiming to show Discarded ballots for Trump as “proof” that those were illegally discarded or accept the explanation that those were improperly filled out therefore discarded, bu t none of us really know.
The longer answer is to put all the facts together and come to the more reasonable conclusion:
Scenario A. A President whose approval rating has never crossed 50%, who “oversaw” the deaths of hundreds of thousands in a pandemic that he admitted to have downplayed (if he was actually responsible for deaths is irrelevant) , where most economic markers are worse than when he started office (Not necessarily his fault), actually lost the election as was predicted by almost all polls going into the election. and in order to save face, as he said “I Don’t lose well” alleged fraud took place as he said he would before the election took place both in 2020 AND in 2016 as well as in primary races he lost.
Scenario B. The Democrats coordinated efforts to steal 6 states elections, but left the Senate in deadlock (not to raise suspicion I guess) lost seats in the house. Trump’s AG, head of election cybersecurity, as well as many Republican appointed judges not to mention most senators and congressmen, As well As Republican officials in those stolen states are in on to too.
Trump of course knew the election was being stolen, yet Inexplicably instead of hiring real lawyers to litigate these cases, perhaps people who specialize in election law (Like Gore and Bush did during a real case) Trump chose to hire incompetent Showboaters who are great and talking big but clearly were not going to deliver
Is scenario B POSSIBLE? of course!
is it more likely ? of course notJanuary 18, 2021 10:55 am at 10:55 am #1939870
“You would go to the websites of the Secretaries of State and look at the vote counts for yourself. You’d see that the total number of votes is lower than the total amount of registered voters, even on a county-by-county basis. For there you could see whether claims about more people voting in a county or precinct than live there is possible. And you would compare the numbers presented by Trump and his people and see that they’re wrong.”
I’ve already said my point regarding this but for fun I’ll do it again
Those states have “same day registration” and if you look there are thousands of people who registered if not hundreds of thousands of same day registration which if you took those out would make Trump win (and who would vote the same day as registration? The Democrats “can’t go to the voting booth” and republicans would have been fully charged to vote and make sure they were registered before thenJanuary 18, 2021 11:43 am at 11:43 am #1939875erParticipant
Bravo to OrechDin on a well thought out and logical post. I share the frustration that people don’t bother reading more than a sound bite. Any dissenters at this point in the game you are not going to change their minds, because they are willing to turn away from emes to back their candidate. It’s a tough call personally whether to bother trying to enage people like health when they don’t bother reading or responding to rational comments anyway.January 18, 2021 11:47 am at 11:47 am #1939906
Er – in all fairness that applies equally to people on both sides of the issue. There has been no difference in willingness to listen, research or dialogue
From either side. The inability for people to see that has been most baffling and yes, frustrating.January 18, 2021 12:09 pm at 12:09 pm #1939909
How would we know… it would be reported. Just like every serious case of election fraud is reported. See North Carolina a couple of years back. And the things I mentioned wouldn’t add up. The hand count and the original machine count would be different. Republican secretaries of state would show evidence in their own states. Vote totals in questioned counties would be higher than the number of citizens. You would be able to identify the names of the 11,000 felons that voted. The videos would show suitcases of ballots that came from no where instead of sealed ballot boxes that can be seen on the video for hours and hours before. Hugo Chavez would be alive. Dominion Voting (a subsidiary of Diebold) wouldn’t be an American company.
It’s very hard to commit voter fraud and get away with it. Because it’s very easily caught with all the technology we have. For large scale voter fraud in modern times its just impossible. There would be evidence of a conspiracy. Ballots wouldn’t add up. The opposing party would spot the miscounting.
And your point about secretaries of state is nonsense. If it’s legal to register on the same day and vote (Wisconsin requires ID), then it’s legal. The total number of registered people even after election day was lower than the number of voters.January 18, 2021 12:36 pm at 12:36 pm #1939917ujmParticipant
Voter fraud is easy to get away with. Especially since Democrats fight tooth and nail against even *investigating” it.January 18, 2021 12:59 pm at 12:59 pm #1939933erParticipant
Syag – “in all fairness that applies equally to people on both sides of the issue.”
Yes, I suppose I could be stubborn since my mind is made up. But it’s made up based on facts such as the ones OrechDin points out and Ubiquitin, in post #1939864 above. Whereas to the frustrations of many, allegations of fraud are not backed up. And while yes, it’s hard for me and you to prove conclusively, no one seems to confront the reality or address that the recounts, data, testimony of experts, etc. belies any major fraud. So in the end if it’s just a hypothetical “well you never know.” Fine. But for some reason that hypothrtical concern of election fraud never flared up in 2016 when Trump won, or for Obama’s victories for that matter. Why? Because it was Trump who pushed this after he lost, and he’ll take things as far as he can, as we’ve seen.
Could you agree with that to any extent?January 18, 2021 1:32 pm at 1:32 pm #1939943
An interesting side note
I was listening to the radio on a Sunday and the person was saying that there were studies done and political views isn’t based on logic instead it’s based on emotions which is why people get worked up and don’t listen to opposing “facts”January 18, 2021 2:12 pm at 2:12 pm #1939950ParticipantParticipant
can people stop saying that Biden got more votes than any previous candidate, unless they mention that trump also did?
also can people stop saying that Biden won by a large margin? (don’t recall if this is relevant to this thread) the number I think was about 2% or so. that’s not large especially if you consider how much comes from N.Y. and ca.January 18, 2021 3:10 pm at 3:10 pm #1939968charliehallParticipant
“Especially since Democrats fight tooth and nail against even *investigating” it.”
Liar. The Pennsylvania Attorney General, a Democrat, found three cases of vote fraud in his state and is seeing that the culprits are prosecuted. It turned out that all three are Trump supporters.January 18, 2021 3:11 pm at 3:11 pm #1939969emes nisht shekerParticipant
Biden won by a 4.4% margin.
As to the ridiculous question of how can you know there is no election fraud, this is a fundamentally ridiculous question as it is asking you to prove something that is impossible to prove.
All that we know is there has been no valid evidence of fraud presented. OrechDin summed it up very well. If you still persist in lies, then like Lyndsay Graham, a fanatic Trump supporter, said about this there is simply no convincing you.January 18, 2021 3:18 pm at 3:18 pm #1939983
Excellent point that saying there is no fraud is impossible to prove. I wonder why so many of you keep saying it. 🤔🤔🤔January 18, 2021 4:23 pm at 4:23 pm #1939998emes nisht shekerParticipant
But never question why people persist in lying about election fraud. Typical.January 18, 2021 4:26 pm at 4:26 pm #1940005
And don’t admit you put your foot in your mouth
TypicalJanuary 18, 2021 5:59 pm at 5:59 pm #1940023
Oh Charlie, -“Liar. The Pennsylvania Attorney General, a Democrat, found three cases of vote fraud in his state and is seeing that the culprits are prosecuted. It turned out that all three are Trump supporters.”
Don’t be so sure of yourself!
The WSJ lists a bunch of States that the Fraud possibly has occurred.
I’m just quoting Pa.:
Sen. Josh Hawley (R., Mo.) and some other Republicans have questioned the validity of a 2019 state law called Act 77, which granted every Pennsylvania voter the option to request and cast a mail ballot, along with other changes. Pennsylvania’s GOP-controlled Legislature and Democratic governor backed the law.
Mr. Hawley has said the Pennsylvania Constitution requires all votes to be cast in person, with narrowly defined exceptions. Mr. Hawley also said that the Pennsylvania Supreme Court threw out a lawsuit by U.S. Rep. Mike Kelly (R., Pa.) without hearing the merits, which he said violated its own precedent, according to an email Mr. Hawley sent to other Republican senators that was reviewed by The Wall Street Journal.
The Pennsylvania Supreme Court unanimously dismissed Mr. Kelly’s lawsuit on Nov. 28. The court’s three-page opinion observed that the congressman waited more than a year after the mail-in ballot law was enacted—and after Mr. Biden had won—to file his claim. “Millions of Pennsylvania voters had already expressed their will in both the June 2020 Primary Election and the November 2020 General Election and the final ballots in the 2020 General Election were being tallied, with the results becoming seemingly apparent,” the court said. To grant Mr. Kelly’s claim now “would result in the disenfranchisement of millions of Pennsylvania voters,” the court said.
Mr. Kelly filed an emergency application asking the U.S. Supreme Court to block Pennsylvania from certifying the election results. The court denied that request on Dec. 8. Still pending is Mr. Kelly’s appeal of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision; the state has until Jan. 14 to file its response to the U.S. Supreme Court. Under normal procedures, Mr. Kelly would have 14 days to file a reply brief, after which the case would be scheduled for the court’s conference, the private meeting where the justices decide which cases to hear.”January 18, 2021 7:07 pm at 7:07 pm #1940048
Did you ever go to that website I posted in your other thread?January 19, 2021 9:18 am at 9:18 am #1940204Ari256Participant
The fake news call outs have become the fake news. Fox won’t stop, it’s been going on for at least since 08. Be smarter, don’t believe everything you hear.January 19, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1940214
Heath – you are proving my point. First, eligible voters voting according to the law in Pennsylvania is NOT election fraud. They are eligible voters and their votes were counted once. If you have proof that ineligible voters voted using the new law, then you have to identify who those voters were, specifically. And if your argument is “it was too easy for eligible voters to cast votes” then you really need to go find a country with another system of government that does not support democracy.
But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct. The Republican PA legislature made minor tweaks to how people can request absentee ballots in 2019. No one complained. A primary was held. No one complained. It wasn’t until Trump lost that all of the sudden it’s unconstitutional. And it’s only Trump’s seat they’re complaining about. Kelly won his seat with this “unconstitutional” system. Did he take his seat in the House? Go look.
This is the doctrine of laches. You cannot sit on your claim for so long that it becomes not equitable to hear the claim. Similar to a statute of limitations, but it’s an equitable defense. The day the law was passed in 2019 is when it became, supposedly, unconstitutional. The time to bring the claim was right after the bill was passed, not after TWO elections (primary and general), thereby disenfranchising millions of registered, lawful, voters who followed the law. The case was heard already in the US Supreme Court and rejected (they brought it as a state claim then a federal claim, one was rejected, the other will be, I just forget the order). It is also Supreme Court precedent (not followed in Bush v. Gore) that the US Supreme Court cannot tell a state supreme court how to interpret the state’s constitution.
I’ll go even further. Hawley (R-Insurrectionist) does not say what’s unconstitutional about the tweaks to the law the the Republicans passed. I’ll give you a simple example: If the state constitution says that voting is done on yellow paper ballots, but the state government passes a law that says “we are running out of yellow paper, people can vote on blue ballots also” should the people who voted on blue ballots have their votes thrown out after the fact? Assuming they’re eligible voters.
I’ll go EVEN further… can you show me one instance in the 244-year history of the United States where entire population of valid votes were thrown out after an election because they were deemed unconstitutional in the casting after the fact? Show any court anywhere in the United States that ever allowed this to happen.
Is this what you have? Seriously, it’s time to stop saying “no one looked at the evidence.” This was looked at by like 10 courts (including Trump-appointed judges) and they found it to be nonsense. It was briefed, it was argued, it was examined. A similar issue was in Georgia with the Republican-signed “consent agreement.” It was signed in March 2020. It was an order of the court. If there was a problem it should have been brought up then. It cannot be called unconstitutional 7 months later because you don’t like the outcome of the election.
Coffee Addict – I may have, there are many threads. If you re-post the link I will look at it again.January 19, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1940215
I will say it… Trump got 74 million votes, the most of any candidate in US history. Except for Joe Biden who got 81 million. Feel better?January 19, 2021 9:57 am at 9:57 am #1940216
Coffee addict – why would you take out the same day registration votes? Wisconsin law allows it, and has for a long time. Several states allow it. A person has to present ID, fill out forms, have their name run through the system, and then they vote. They’re eligible voters casting lawful votes on Election Day. Republicans can turn out their voters the same way. If anything, it’s New York that’s undemocratic because it unnecessarily requires registration months in advance.January 19, 2021 10:35 am at 10:35 am #1940225
I’m wondering since it might have made sense pre pandemic but during a pandemic who’s registering same day?
Democrats are “scared” of the virus which was why they had mail in voting
Republicans mostly aren’t scared of the virus so they should have registered early
Anyways it does seem odd that SO MANY PEOPLE decided to register and vote same dayJanuary 19, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1940232
I heard on the radio that Trump won 84% of all counties
Is this true, if so how could he lose?January 19, 2021 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1940243Ari256Participant
Donald trump is a fascist crazy person.
“I could shoot someone in middle of fifth avenue”
“If russias listening find Hillary’s emails”
Are these the statements of a normal person?
Yes he lost the election duhJanuary 19, 2021 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1940245
Is this true, if so how could he lose?
The election is not won by the victor of most counties…
So if more populous counties tend towards Biden (which makes sense, since urban areas tend to be Democrat-leaning), the overall vote could still go to Biden.January 19, 2021 11:18 am at 11:18 am #1940246
Basically, whoever said that is cherry picking a statistic which would make one think Trump won, although it does not really indicate that he did.January 19, 2021 12:38 pm at 12:38 pm #1940261
CorrectJanuary 19, 2021 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1940299
Coffee addict – Wisconsin has had same day voter registration since the 1970s. Now 21 states have it. It wasn’t a new thing that came about because of the pandemic, or that should have been reconsidered. If anything, it’s an advantage to Republicans who were more likely to vote on Election Day. Of course, same day registration includes in-person early voting. In any case, I don’t see why those votes should not be counted. It’s not like Pennsylvania or Texas where we are talking about new procedures. It’s a 40+ year old law and system.January 19, 2021 1:54 pm at 1:54 pm #1940305
Coffee Addict – re: Counties. I don’t have the exact number but you’re getting that from Charlie Kirk. And it’s horribly misleading and certainly not evidence of fraud. There are 3,142 counties in the US. Half the population lives in just 139 counties. This is according to the US Census. So it’s very easy to see how one candidate can win hundreds more counties mostly populated by cattle and still lose significantly. Also, consider the spreads in each county. I’ll use Georgia… Fulton County has 808,000 registered voters. It went for Biden about 75/25. Dooly County (an absolutely lovely farm community with very nice people) has 5,920 voters. It went for Trump 56/44. Georgia has 159 counties. Trump could win 140 of those counties and still lose Georgia. Because most of those 140 counties are empty spaces with few people. In fact, I haven’t checked the math, but Trump could probably win 157 out of 159 counties, and depending on the margins, Biden could still win Georgia with just Fulton and Dekalb.
One person, one vote. A rural vote does not count more than an urban or suburban vote. Except in the electoral college and the Senate.January 19, 2021 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1940327
OD -“But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”
I never heard such Haughtiness!
Do you think you are a US Supreme Court Justice?!?
“Still pending is Mr. Kelly’s appeal of the Pennsylvania Supreme Court decision; the state has until Jan. 14 to file its response to the U.S. Supreme Court. Under normal procedures, Mr. Kelly would have 14 days to file a reply brief, after which the case would be scheduled for the court’s conference, the private meeting where the justices decide which cases to hear.”January 19, 2021 4:58 pm at 4:58 pm #1940360
Wait… it’s haughtiness to AGREE with a state (commonwealth) supreme court and every other court up and down the federal and state court systems, including the US Supreme Court that already refused to hear this case when brought on an earlier appeal? Haughtiness is to say, “I know better than all these courts.” I don’t know better than all these courts. They’re all correct. They looked at the factual and legal arguments in detail. They all agree with each other. Trump-appointed judges, several of them (when the case was heard in federal court).
And I’ll give you another lecture about laches. In Georgia in 2018, Democrats went to court to get the voter rolls un-purged and to mandate paper backups for the computer voting machines two months BEFORE the election. The judge (US District Judge Amy Totenberg) said that she agreed with the argument, and it was right, but it was TOO LATE to bring the argument. There wasn’t time to change the system or the ballots. LACHES. And Democrats lost the governor’s election in 2018.
Did Kelly take his seat in Congress? If so, he disagreed with his own argument. By his reasoning, his election was also fraudulent and he should step aside until the US Supreme Court rules.
Of course, Kelly’s case is moot for this election. If the Supreme Court even hears his case, it would only apply to future elections.
If you read Kelly’s petition (it’s public record, easy to find) you see that he doesn’t allege that a single vote was improperly cast or that any vote was ineligible. Just that he didn’t agree with the system of voting (the same system that gave him the seat he occupies and refuses to leave).January 19, 2021 8:21 pm at 8:21 pm #1940428
OD -“But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”
“Wait… it’s haughtiness to AGREE with a state (commonwealth) supreme court and every other court up and down the federal and state court systems, including the US Supreme Court that already refused to hear this case when brought on an earlier appeal?”
My point was, which a Baal Gaiva like you can’t possibly understand, it’s not whether you agree or not.
My point was this – your post is – “But to the legal argument, the Pennsylvania Supreme Court was correct”.
How in the world would you know if it’s correct or not?
The SCOTUS didn’t judge up on the case yet.
In other words – you Can’t say it’s Correct until we have an Answer from SCOTUS!
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