Real Money?

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  • #1545588

    icemelter
    Participant

    Is there really such a concept of saving money according to Judaism? In the beginning of the year, it is decided how much we will gain and lose. A person putting money aside might feel they are saving money, but are they really? Many times a person might try skipping buying food or clothing in order to save money and then be hit with a traffic ticket, physically lose cash, or any other unexpected need to spend/lose that money they thought they were saving. So is putting money away just an illusion of saving it? Should we just spend as we see fit since it is something that was predetermined anyway? I know there are various sources including the Talmud on this matter so I’d like to hear what you think.

    #1545682

    laskern
    Participant

    The total money spent is being determined not individual items. You can buy something else for the difference or give it to tzedaka.

    #1545730

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    We are supposed to take care of ourselves and our families. If you are fortunate enough to have inherited considerable wealth or have worked hard and earn a good parnassah than saving for the future is not such a priority. For most of us, however, a rational balance of spending with some put aside and invested for the longer term is a reality unless we want to become a burden to our children or live or beg for tzedakah when we are older.

    #1545736

    icemelter
    Participant

    So really there is no such thing as saving? Either it comes from one place or another it seems. One might save up an entire year and on the last month be hit with huge expenses that deplete it all.

    #1545737

    Takes2-2tango
    Participant

    The rambam talks about how to invest with your money. Real estate etc.

    #1545745

    jakob
    Participant

    Live through life with one value on spending money and always be happy no matter how tight or rich you are in money.

    “GET WHAT YOU NEED NOT WHAT YOU WANT”

    don’t own 3 cars and 3 vacations a year and then be shocked when a person is broke and in dept C”V wake up to reality and face the issues a person has. Yes making a wedding and school tuition is a lot of money. So wife/husband we are running right and cannot afford to send our kids to camp or go on our usual summer vacation this year etc….. Be positive at least our child is getting married Boruch Hashem

    #1545764

    icemelter
    Participant

    Isnt it brought down in the Talmud about a third for expenses, third for investment, and third for savings?

    Also the Rambam discussed those who will save on food just to have “another pruta in their pocket” and that its ridiculous to live like that. One doesnt know how long they will remain here and saving on things that one needs is foolish. But my question is regarding “extra” or “luxury” expenses. Say you are really feeling fleishigs from a restaurant but have a choice to just go home and make a sandwich. If you choose to “save” those 10-15 bucks and eat at home, is that really money that you saved or is it just going to leak out in another way? Im not talking about someone who eats out every day and indulges, just these isolated cases.
    In a case where something will give you that extra energy that you might need,is the right choice to actually spend some money rather than trying to save it up and depriving yourself of that moment?

    #1545811

    Avi K
    Participant

    We are required to do hishtadlut. The decree might even be conditioned on it. Chazal say that one should save one third, invest one third in land and one third in a business (Baba Metzia 42a). One should also supervise one’s workers (ibid 29b). Both Rav Moshe (IM OC 2:111) and Rav Ovadia (Yehaveh Daat 3:85) advise buying life insurance.

    #1545829

    akuperma
    Participant

    The alternative to saving money is to borrow, and often it is hard to borrow without paying interest.

    #1545828

    laskern
    Participant

    לוו עלי ואני פורע Hashem says borrow on My behalf and I will repay. There are certain things that are not determined like tuition for Talmud Torah and Shabbos and Yom Tov expenses.

    #1545834

    laskern
    Participant

    akuperma, As I mentioned, Hashem wants us to borrow and He promises to repay, obviously fron a Jew where no interest is charged.

    #1545902

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Your parnassa is decided by Hashem. You can burn all your money and then have nothing left for your needs. But that would be a bad idea.

    You can’t control how much you earn but you can choose if you will waste the money you have.

    If you have kids and plan on paying for their bar mitzvahs, tuition, weddings. If you plan on living till 90 and not working till that age you’ll have to save too.

    #1546027

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern, the Aruch haShulchan says (OC 242:44) that is only if someone has a business where the natural order of things is for there to be ups and downs. However, if someone has a fixed income he should not. In fact, someone who borrows not knowing how he will not be able to repay is a rasha (Rambam Hilchot Malveh v’Loveh 1:3) and according to the Rav Soloveichik in the name of the Brisker Rav he is a thief.

    JJ, suppose Hashem decides that if you will work a certain amount you will earn a certain amount?

    #1546069

    icemelter
    Participant

    jj2020-“You can’t control how much you earn but you can choose if you will waste the money you have.”

    -ya but isnt there an order of things as spending and gaining back? Meaning even if you spend or had certain expenses which depleted your account, suddenly you are sent money from a source you didnt think of or you find a job or whatever. So really how can you know that you wasted everything? Temporarily maybe.

    AviK- Ya doesnt it work that way? That even if you are decreed a large sum for the year but if you dont go out to collect it you wont receive it? Its a pretty deep subject im sure there are many perushim on it.

    #1546124

    laskern
    Participant

    Avi K, You opened up an interesting discussion. From the Rambam above is no prove as he uses the expression borrowing for no need but here there is a need for shabbos. The Aruch Hashulchan answers a contradiction because it also says עשה שבתך חול ואל תצטרך לבריות make your shabbos like a week day and don’t rely on others. So he says if he does not have a means of support, he should not borrow. What about tuition? Can you borrow for it when you don’t have the means to repay it? The above is not said on it but is one of the things that is not pre-determined and you should borrow to be able to pay it.

    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  YW Moderator-25.
    • This reply was modified 10 months ago by  laskern.
    #1546287

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Avik – my understanding of Rav Dessler is that the amount of work you do doesn’t affect your income. It may be the right thing to work for most people for various other reasons. Also there must be some kind of human effort made to allow a needs to happen but it could be something very small such as buying a lottery ticket. To be clear I’m not advocating do that. I’m just saying that I don’t think your income is dependent on the hours you work.

    #1546288

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Litvishchosid- it’s true that Hashem can give you more money if you run out. I don’t know if there is a way to know how much Hashem planned to give you. Just because Hashem gives you money after you blew your salary on a fancy sports car doesn’t mean you didn’t waste the money. Maybe you are using up zchusim for that, who knows. But we don’t judge our actions based on the outcomes. We judge them based on the information we have at the time we make the decision.

    It may not be so easy to know if your wasting money. If you are spending money because you are jealous if your neighbors car, house, vacation, clothes etc then that is probably a waste and worse.

    Knowing if you are spending you money properly really takes a lot of introspection. Some people spend too much other’s don’t spend enough on their family or to take care of their own health for example. It could also be useful to have a Rav or chaver to help with this.

    #1546272

    laskern
    Participant

    Tosfas in Betzeh 15b according to the Mahrshal answers that he can borrow if he has investments but no liquidity.

    #1546279

    Gadolhadorah
    Participant

    I’m sure that you can bring down many interesting inyanim from chazal as to how to organize one’s financial planning but there is no single directive that applies to all circumstances. As to our not “having control over what we earn” that is also clearly a silly concept since in today’s world, there is a direct correlation between education and earnings (although there are exceptions). Borrowing money with no means of repayment is also a foolish idea since there is no greater fool who will lend money to a destitute person with no assets or income. Ultimately one can apply some notion of hashgacha paratis and fall back on the notion that no amount of financial planning makes sense since everything in life is “predetermined” but that means you make no effort to live a rational and healthy lifestyle consistentwith daas torah since in the end, “it doesn’t matter”.

    #1546350

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern,
    1. According to your view one should not ask for a scholarship. Commit to pay the entire tuition and hope that Hashem will provide.
    2. We see from Yaakov Avinu that a sin can cancel a good decree (shema hachet yigrom). Hashem Himself gave Shmuel a cover story so that Shaul would not kill him.
    3. There is no dispute. The Maharshal does not say that he has no means to repay. He just does not have cash at hand but he has collateral. The Gra says that no one will lend to him. Perhaps this is because he is known to be a deadbeat. In fact, it is prohibited to lend to him because of lifnei iver (the Chafetz Chaim discusses this in Ahavat Chesed).

    #1546428

    laskern
    Participant

    Avi K, You are putting things in my mouth that I never said. It does not say anywhere that you should not ask for a scholarship. You borrow what is necessary for tuition (see the gemora Betzeh 16a on the top of the page). You should try to lower the tuition as much as you can because you might not be worthy for more because of your sins.

    #1546500

    JJ2020
    Participant

    Gadol – correlation does not imply causation. We have to work because of Adam’s cheit. In order to realize that Hashem sustains all living things. The idea is to earn back what Adam had before the cheit. We have to see through the seemingly real nature of things and understand that Hashem runs it all.

    #1546572

    Avi K
    Participant

    Laskern,
    1. You are putting words in my mouth. I was extending your sheeta.
    2. Borrow? What if you have no realistic expectation to be able to repay? I have already quoted sources that someone who does that is a rasha. Maybe that sin alone will cancel some good decrees.

    #1546613

    laskern
    Participant

    Avi K, The Rambam you quoted above 1:3 says ולהוציאה שלא לצורך ולאבדה I don’t consider Talmud Torah spending without any purpose. If the yeshivas are not considerate what should he do? He can even borrow with ribus with a heter iska. This will not make him a rasha.

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