Real talk: Present day frumkeit is aimed at 110 IQ tenth graders
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- This topic has 38 replies, 18 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by pcoz.
October 25, 2015 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #616534
Which is why so many others are marginalized. People like Popa have no choice but to go insane.October 25, 2015 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #1108317stam_a_yidMember
How about some examples?October 25, 2015 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1108318
Yeshivas should aim for a 85 IQ.
Alternatively, there should be separate yeshivas for different IQ levels.October 25, 2015 3:05 pm at 3:05 pm #1108319☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Maybe popa should leave 10th grade.October 25, 2015 5:39 pm at 5:39 pm #1108320
The separate yeshiva idea wouldn’t work. It’s bad enough in yeshivas where kids feel stigmatized if they are placed in a “B” or lower class. I don’t know if I agree with the premise that yeshivas are aiming at IQs of 110. I don’t think their staff of rebbeim and teachers are all so bright and intelligent to be able to do that. But let’s face it, learning is not easy even for a person of above average intelligence.October 25, 2015 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #1108321☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
Tracking is done in many mesivtas, and it does stigmatize the weaker students.
Different mesivtas do cater to talmidim of different levels, and that does not cause such a stigma, because it’s much less obvious.October 25, 2015 5:49 pm at 5:49 pm #1108322
That may be true, but parents seem to know the truth of their child’s placement. I have a close friend who has been a principal of different yeshivas, and they all face the same issue with parents who don’t want their kids in anything other than what is regarded as the top class.October 25, 2015 6:37 pm at 6:37 pm #1108323
LOL I certainly didn’t think that 110 IQ was the GOOD class. I meant to evoke bright but ultimately innocuous kids as opposed to the really brilliant ones who have the potential to influence the world significantly.October 25, 2015 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #1108324
VM: Why do you assume that IQ is very relevant in determining who will influence the world significantly?October 25, 2015 7:39 pm at 7:39 pm #1108325popa_bar_abbaParticipant
I think VM is talking about hashkafa. I pretty much agree with him.
My yeshiva once brought in some kiruv wackos to convince us with their brilliant proofs. They were dumb. The presenters were dumb, and so their arguments were dumb. I can make much better arguments, but I spent 2 days making fun of them instead, because they were dumb.October 25, 2015 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #1108326David Bar-MagenMember
VM: To be honest, I have no idea what you mean. Not trying to argue; I legitimately don’t understand.
What do you mean by 110 IQ tenth graders?October 25, 2015 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #1108327
I agree. I don’t believe a person needs to be brilliant to influence the world. Over the years I’ve come to understand that the presumption that Jews in general are brilliant is just not so. Jews may represent a disproportionately high percentage of Nobel prize winners but there are a lot of average folks like meOctober 25, 2015 8:20 pm at 8:20 pm #1108328
Joseph, there are strong correlations between IQ and success at most things. I don’t know if there is a study about IQ and gadlus specifically but it stands to reason that a religion so closely tied to intellect would be similar to most other things, and IQ should strongly correlate with its positive development.October 25, 2015 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1108329
David, I mean people who are somewhat intelligent, but not particularly so; who will ask periodic interesting questions but be satisfied with superficial answers; and who will trade in moderate sentimentality rather than meaningful spirituality.October 25, 2015 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #1108330
VM: “The results of Terman’s longitudinal study of gifted children suggest that IQ can play an important role in determining life success; but high IQ alone is not enough. Variables such as family background, socioeconomic status, and educational experiences as well as personality factors including motivation, willingness to work hard, being committed to goals, creativity, and emotional maturity are also strongly linked to success in life.”
So perhaps we should separate students by economic status as well?October 25, 2015 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1108331
Flatbusher, in addition to your general average-ness, you also don’t understand how attributes are generally distributed, nor how logic works. Jewish Nobel prize winners are directly connected to the average non-descript Jew, in that the average Jew is smart, and the high tail is brilliant. Compare that to other populations, where the average person is average, and the high tail is smart.
Also, I interpret your post this way. Since (1) you are average, and (2) you do or can have a substantial influence on the world, (3) extreme intelligence would not be a benefit in having substantial influence on the world. But that is not true. It is possible that you have a substantial influence on the world, but that smarter people are more likely to have a greater influence on the world.October 25, 2015 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #1108332zogt_besserParticipant
Popa- Just curious, what was one or two of their arguments that you found unconvincing, and how would you improve on them?October 25, 2015 8:40 pm at 8:40 pm #1108333
Joseph, I was not talking about separating students by intelligence so I don’t know what you are responding to.October 25, 2015 8:44 pm at 8:44 pm #1108334
I suggested separating high potential students in order to cultivate them to their highest achievement.October 25, 2015 9:04 pm at 9:04 pm #1108335bekitzurParticipant
The average Ashkenazi Jewish IQ is 115.October 25, 2015 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #1108336
How did Ashkenazi Jews get so smart?October 26, 2015 2:56 am at 2:56 am #1108337
Joseph, the malach taught them everything in their mothers’ womb.October 26, 2015 4:00 am at 4:00 am #1108338
VM: But then the malach flicked his finger under his nose causing him to forget everything.October 26, 2015 4:16 am at 4:16 am #1108339writersoulParticipant
Oh, I remember my kiruv krovim speeches in HS… I left five minutes in as I found some of what the speaker was saying and particularly how he was saying it breathtakingly offensive to the people to whom he was speaking. I told my principals I was never going back to one of those speeches. When I told them why, not one of them could argue with me. It didn’t stop them from hiring the speaker back, though.
I honestly don’t think I missed anything, even if I had liked the speaker. I find it difficult to be like R Meir and Acher and eat the fruit and throw away the peel, but somehow I don’t think it would have helped/have been necessary in this case.October 26, 2015 11:49 am at 11:49 am #1108340
Who tested all these people? Where do these numbers come from?
It actually goes against Chazal who say “Chochmah bagoyim taamin”. There are smart goyim! Just because one has to be smart to understand the torah properly does not mean every jew is smart nor does it mean the average jew is smart. It just means that the gedolim who understand and interpret the torah correctly are smart.October 26, 2015 11:56 am at 11:56 am #1108341
Writersoul: You find it hard to be like R’ Meir or Acher? What do you find hard to eat the fruit or throw away the peel, or you mean to separate them? And then comes the next question, do you find it harder to peel an orange or apple or both?October 26, 2015 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1108342skripkaParticipant
definitely both, ever tried peeling 2 fruit at once?October 26, 2015 2:32 pm at 2:32 pm #1108343MammeleParticipant
Joseph: the second time you hear something that you’ve forgotten it “still rings a bell”. So we might have an easier learning curve…
Truthfully though I believe it’s more of a cultural thing, where learning for the sake of learning is appreciated and encouraged. We start learning early and and never stop. Even in the secular Jewish world the concept of education is extolled more than in many other cultures.
The funny thing is that IQ is supposed to measure intelligence and not knowledge, but it’s hard to separate the two when testing, and learning teaches one to think critically.October 26, 2015 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #1108344zahavasdadParticipant
Asian society extolls learning perhaps even more than jewish cutureOctober 26, 2015 3:37 pm at 3:37 pm #1108345
Asian society looks to Jewish society to learn how to learn and be smart.October 26, 2015 5:27 pm at 5:27 pm #1108346
skripka: Where do you see the words ‘at once’?October 26, 2015 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #1108347yeshivabochur123Participant
We used to be much smarter (as a people). Now we seem to blindly follow whomever has the most chumros (not everyone). The independent thought that provided the basis for the gemara is now discouraged. Even in learning most sefarim written nowadays seem to be focused on reconciling old ideas instead of having new ones. Of course one’s thought must be within the confines of halacha but why can’t people be a little more independent like our parents were growing up?October 26, 2015 11:52 pm at 11:52 pm #1108348
I suggested separating high potential students
in order to cultivate them to their highest achievement.
Lakewood is about to do that, it seems, with The Mechinah.
So perhaps we should separate students by economic status as well?
Practically speaking, that’s often the case, regardless of policy.October 26, 2015 11:57 pm at 11:57 pm #1108349👑RebYidd23Participant
How about allowing the students to choose for themselves?October 27, 2015 12:57 am at 12:57 am #1108350
Lakewood is about to do that, it seems, with The Mechinah.
What’s “The Mechinah”?
Practically speaking, that’s often the case, regardless of policy.
Where are there yeshivas that exclusively cater wealthy families and other yeshivas that exclusively cater poor families?October 27, 2015 1:08 am at 1:08 am #1108351
I thought it was an upper-elementary-grades school
for exceptional boys. I was wrong. Forget it.
I was talking about the general public.October 27, 2015 1:45 am at 1:45 am #1108352
I was talking about the general public.
In what sense?October 27, 2015 1:57 am at 1:57 am #1108353
Separation of students by economic status (in a broader sense).October 30, 2015 1:04 am at 1:04 am #1108354pcozMember
This is why Oscar the Grouch ran away from cheder.
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