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Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir, and Interferon-β1a were compared to local standard of care in a huge clinical trial whose results were just released today. The outcome was mortality.
None had any significant effect on mortality, nor on any secondary outcome. 🙁
This is the most disappointing news on the COVID-19 research front to date.
We have to keep on wearing masks and maintaining social distance, so that fewer people get infected.
…wait for it…
Hydroxychloroquine. Every doctor who recommends hydroxychloroquine recommends it be give in a very specific way. Low dosage. With zinc. Early, not to hospitalized patients. And to high risk patients. Seems real simple to me. How am I supposed to trust Fauci when he refers to studies that don’t remotely resemble this protocol, as “proof” hydroxychloroquine is ineffective. A 7th grader observing can easily point out major flaws in the studies that show hydroxychloroquine ineffective. Why hasn’t Fauci and the NIH run a study that followed these very basic rules? Why has the Lancet, a very well known and respected medical journal, had to retract a study that was supposed to be the “nail in the coffin” for hydroxychloroquine -for using fraudulent manufactured data? Every study that abides to these easy to understand rules concludes hydroxychloroquine is indeed very effective in combating covid. Charlie, I challenge you to refer me to a one single study -that abides by these “rules”-and indicates otherwise. I’ll wait.
@CharlieHall, thanks for the reference. Trying to find some hopeful things here:
there seems to be a tendency across all to have better results for non-ventilated patients. Last column is 0.1-0.3 better for all 4 treatments. This is either a sign that treatments are more effective early or that early use of ventilators was not done properly.
THere is also variability by age: Remdesivir Ratio of Death Rates (<1 is good) is 0.91-0.93 for 2 groups over 50, Hydroxy 0.8 for 70+, lopinavir 90.77 for <50, interferon 0.9 for 70+
All these numbers are uncertain and each have maybe 30% chance of being > 1, but there is a possible hope here that positive results for subgroups are not random.looking at most important group: 70+, most optimistic case of 3 treatments will be 0.65, if we unrealistically multiply all improvements. But given that this is a lower common denominator trial, one can see that further tweaking, early intervention, this would lead to 2x improvement.
“Hydroxychloroquine…With zinc…”
…and there it is.
I suggest everyone read the article “HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE: A MORALITY TALE”. Fascinating article. shows how ”trustworthy” the medical establishment is.
IMHO the only way is to wear N95 and above and keep environmental concentration of virus within the masks’ design margins. This virus is transmitted by aerosol.
The more we learn about the virus effects, the more it becomes clear we must not catch it.@TorahValuesOverParty : can you point to any properly structured trials (control versus protocol) providing evidence showing that Zinc + HQC is effective? Or any theoretical reason why HQC wouldn’t work in the absence of Zinc? Or any explanation of why expert doctors are not reaching the intellectual standards of seventh grade teachers?
I always get pointed to the work of Dr Zelenko, but unfortunately the records of number of sick patients treated, mortality rate after 28 days, and how that compares against a control group of comparably sick patients of similar age and medical background is lacking. It’s just anecdote.
Some people with autoimmune disease really need that hydroxychloroquine.
Most treatments, including convalescent plasma, have little to no effect when given late in the disease process.
Especially for sick and intubated patients, there has been almost no difference in outcome.
However, when given early, there has been a lot of good results. This is also why we are seeing less mortality these days as opposed to early on when these otherwise stable patients were only given supportive treatments.
@jewinthepew
1-I honestly don’t know whether the perfect golden standard RCT exists. as in the article that I referenced explains, many trials were derailed and abandoned once that bogus Lancet study became public. Despite being retracted many study were never able to get underway due to lack of participants who were now afraid to take this “dangerous drug”. However, as Yale epidemiologist Dr Harvey Risch pointed out in a CNN interview, nearly half of cancer treatments never went through the RCT. The narrative that we don’t know anything without RCT is simply false. You don’t need RCT to determine whether parachutes will save someone’s life when jumping off an airplane. When you take note that nearly every country that uses hydroxychloroquine freely has far lower death rates, when doctors around the country report there own success with it(example: Dr Brian Tyson, a frontline doctor in California who treated 1700 covid positive patients, 0 deaths, 1 hospitalization)when you hear patient testimony where at one point they had fever and was short of breath-and symptom free just hours after taking the drug-this all leads to the same conclusion, and hydroxychloroquine is indeed effective and should be used. There is perhaps one argument that would say despite all this anecdotal evidence, hydroxychloroquine’s should not be used. And that is “it’s dangerous” . It can cause cardiac arrhythmia, and then cardiac arrest, and death. Well what is the evidence of that? As it stands, hydroxychloroquine has always been considered a very safe drug for 65 years, a drug that can be taken by all: children, adults, pregnant women….but now all of the sudden the drug is dangerous. Why? Because there were trials conducted where patients received 800mg, or in some cases 2400mg!! These are indeed fatal doses! The “pro-hydroxychloroquine” doctors recommend just 200mg! But this obvious flaw for some reason was missed by fauci. Was missed by the media.
2-I’m not gonna get into scientific terms, but the general idea is that while hydroxychloroquine does have some limited antiviral properties, it’s main effect is that it lets the real antiviral-zinc-into the cell where it destroys the virus’ copying machine.
3-expert doctors are indeed reaching the intellectual standards of a 7th grader. I’ll refer you to an “open letter to Dr fauci” written by Dr George C. Fareed, from Brawley Ca, Michael M. Jacobs, M.D. MPH from Pensacola FL, and Donald C. Pompan, MD, from Salinas Ca.torahvalues:
When a lay person tries to convince you of of something by getting into the statistics and academic literature, it’s kind of like a Jews4J nut on the subway trying to educate you by showing you passages in Isaiah.
I’m more likely to get a handle on this by knowing your financial interest in promoting hydroxychloroquine. Do you get paid by the post, the word, or are you on commission? If none, and your posts are acts of pure altruism, please explain why you (and other hydroxychloroquine promoters should feel free to chime in) believe that it is appropriate to direct your PSAs to non-expert consumers who routinely rely on medical professionals for advice. I like to understand what my doctor says, and it’s important to be an informed, but I don’t read medical journals and I don’t take drugs based on the recommendations from random strangers just as I don’t get my interpretations of Isaiah from brainwashed strangers on midtown train platforms. I have no idea what any of the gibberish you post means. I have no idea if you know what your gibberish means, although when considering the totality of circumstances I suspect not.
As an ethical matter, if you want to proselytize for a specific drug, you should take it to the experts, not YWN.
Thank you for you time.
Charlie
Since I Owe my knowledge to this from a link you provided on a different website, we can always abide by that 1998 study proving the efficacy of prayer.
And thanks for that link it was a fascinating studySe2015
Never suggested anyone taking any drug without doctors consent. Let me be clear about that. Let’s also make clear that this isn’t “me vs doctors” . I see that’s the narrative your trying to put forth. This is about doctors vs doctors. I’m literally parroting the talking points of top medical experts. And to any fair minded person, this argument is completely one sided. We are perhaps witnessing perhaps the biggest medical scandal of all time. There is a reason Dr Harvey Risch has accused Fauci of potentially costing tens of thousands of lives. Not me accusing. But Yale epidemiologist accusing. And to any innocent observer , these accusations are well founded and easy to understand.
(Your claims of me getting paid for this is laughable and flat out lunacy)HCQ + Zinc may work or it may not, there is too much information and I don’t have the head to sift through it right now. The strange thing is, that’s not important. The studies and information I have read show that it only marginally increases the possibility of a COVID-19 patient surviving. Surviving! Is that what we should be striving for? Why can’t we try and keep people out of hospitals to begin with instead of making sure that one out of twenty who would have otherwise died, instead merely suffers from potential lifelong breathing problems?
torahvalues – There have been a many single minded hcq+zinc posts by people who clearly are not scientists, but have a political agenda, and they tend to push crazy conspiracy theories and misinformation. Your post was not the most egregious, so my apologies if my post went too far, although I still think that advocating for drug on a non-medical forum against medical consensus is inappropriate, even if you append a disclaimer.
My questions re your financial interest in hcq were obviously sarcastic. I’m sure politics not money is behind various people’s incessant hcq infomercials, but that just means hcq promoters are politicizing medicine. Granted they claim that hcq deniers are motivated by anti trump animus, but at the end of the day the vast majority of medical professionals don’t practice partisan medicine, so it is actually hcq promoters who are injecting politics and conspiracy theories into what under most other circumstances are things sorted out by doctors not pundits.
Clinical trials take years before they start yielding positive results. It is too early to be disappointed.
Yserbius123-bingo! That’s why “pro-HCQ” doctors are recommending hydroxychloroquine in an outpatient setting! (Before hospitalization where it will have a much greater impact)
Charlie-desperately trying to understand how “1700 patients treated 0 deaths 1 hospitalization” is ” useless”. You have the best of the population to compare against. Picture this. A 75 yr old man with fever and shortness of breath walks into a doctors office. The doctor tells him we have 2 options. Either hope it goes away, and if it doesn’t you’ll be hospitalized and probably survive. Or, I know a bunch of doctors who use a certain treatment, they have together treated thousands of patients. Not one of their patients died. Only a few hospitalized. Which option would you rather? The idea that no treatment is acceptable until we have RCT is completely made up. Again, as Dr Harvey Risch notes, nearly HALF of cancer treatments never underwent RCT.
Se2015-so you are claiming that I am “politicizing medicine”. No. I’m exposing corruption. The fraudulent Lancet study is more than anyone needs to prove that there is corruption taking place. But if you need more, Google and read HYDROXYCHLOROQUINE: A MORALITY TALE.
If anyone has any arguments that are based on facts…..Besides, charlie, I’ve seen you claim in a different thread that “hydroxychloroquine is debunked”. Really?
Its no longer worthwhile to waste time attempting to respond to those who cling to the most recent nonsense offered by the Trumpkopf and his court jester (“Dr. Atlas”) regarding any aspect of the response and therapeutic treatment of Covid 19. We are fortunate to have several really knowledgeable scientists posting here in the CR that have also made some effort to educate us on mainstream medical research progress but their voices are drowned out with the new conspiracy theories and Trumpkopfian rants against their imagined “deep state” (which now includes all the drug companies, medical schools and research institutions, medical journals etc).
@charliehall (quoting and criticizing me saying) “there seems to be a tendency”
of course, I though I qualified enough with “seems”, passive voice, and “tendency” 🙂
but we need to treat uncertainty appropriately: there is current estimate and, then, there is an estimate of a chance that this path can lead to success, that is E [P(X>t)] v E(X), pardon my French.
So, when allocating resources (and hopes), you need to look where success is possible.
Look up literature on multi-armed bandits.In this particular case, I see similar age-related pattern repeating in 3 cases, so it is worth investigating – and it does correspond to the rumors floating around. So, we should not reject “un-scientific” experiments, collected without controls, we just need to look for ways to validate them.
With this data, do you know if more detailed data is publicly available, it would much more productive to review it in more detail, say, separate by country, use train/test to generate hypotheses on one set, and test on the other.
Oh Charlie, -“Remdesivir, Hydroxychloroquine, Lopinavir, and Interferon-β1a were compared to local standard of care in a huge clinical trial whose results were just released today. The outcome was mortality.”
Another Stupid Study sponsered BY WHO. They gave it late & w/o Zinc.
It’s not worth the paper it’s written on!Based on facts and only facts, is there any reason not to believe the doctors who are claiming that fauci is perpetrating a genocide by suppressing hydroxychloroquine? The facts are clear. Every country using hydroxychloroquine widespread has a far lower death rate. Fact. Doctors who are using hydroxychloroquine early in an outpatient are seeing around 90% less death s and hospitalizations. Fact.
Hydroxychloroquine is being tainted as a “dangerous” drug based on obviously flawed studies using between 4-12x the recommended dosage! Fact. Hydroxychloroquine is being labeled ineffective based on stupidly flawed studies where they
-leave out zinc
-perform them on hospitalized patients where nobody in the world expects it to be effective (see latest trial conducted by the WHO)Please respond only if based on something I’m missing, I should not actually believe fauci is murdering thousands. Not TDS anti trump baseless factless “it’s all a conspiracy” rants.
Yep, I’m sure Dr harvey risch, Dr steven smith, Dr didier raoult, zelenko,and literally hundreds-if not thousands-of other doctors, they’re all clueless…yep anybody who suggests hydroxychloroquine is effective is a quack…great tactic.
Besides, you’ve claimed hydroxychloroquine is “debunked”.
I’m curious how you came to that conclusion. I’m also curious why you insist 1700 high risk covid patients treated with 0 deaths(not a typo) and 1 hospitalization (not either a typo) is worthless.Oh Charlie, -“That you say that shows that you do not understand clinical research at all and have no business commenting here.”
You and Fauci have No business commenting or putting in any input! When is the last time the 2 of you actually did anything Clinical?
There are others, like me, that are actually interested in Saving Lives.
HCQ (or Quercitin) + Zinc works, No matter whether you have some paper to rely on!Charlie: Don’t waste your time responding to these uninformed and mindless zealots. Anyone can find some anecdotal evidence that “someone”, “somewhere” was miraculously “cured” (as the Trumpkopf likes to say) by some combination and timing of proven and holistic remedies (aka ITZSI ….its the ZINC stupid). Like not wearing masks, the belief in these remedies and cures has become as culturally defining as wearing a MAGA hat among those who desperately want to believe in a deep state conspiracy among left wing Dems, the medical profession, drug companies, etc. all coordinated by George Soros and Bill Gates.
Charlie >> not made available to the public because of privacy restrictions
Not picking a fight here, just an observation. US culture became so full of rules that we do not respond well to real time threats. With such an emergency, is the data still behind firewalls? There are ways to anonymize data, release some aggregated version, etc. I am not claiming that there is no sharing, maybe this is happening somewhere, but I see such attitude in other places where safety (of my job) is more important than the mission.
Again, hoping not to pick a fight, but current administration did a number of emergency steps breaking the rules – authorizing tele-medicine, emergency use, pro-active funding of vaccine manufacturing … I imagine there was a lot of resistance.
@torahvaluesoverparty I was referring to outpatient. The only studies with HCQ on asymptomatic people show a small decrease in hospitalization and death. A small decrease. In other words, it’s not enough to call it a wonder drug and certainly not enough to justify ignoring COVID social distancing and mask regulations.
There have been some informal and anecdotal thingies, but those are certainly not reliable. A doctor who claims to have treated 1000 people and only one hospitalization is probably because only 10% of those people actually had COVID-19.
Charlie it would be interesting to see you try and actually put forth a logical argument instead of touting your credentials. You try to discredit my arguments by stating I have no clinical experience(100% true). Your credentials are irrelevant; you can be fauci himself. It’s irrelevant because for one: all that I’ve said has been stated by medical experts, at least some(if not all) of whom have significantly more knowledge and experience with hydroxychloroquine. Secondly: you fail to present any counterargument whatoever. You seem very confident that hydroxychloroquine has been debunked. I want to understand how an expert with his name on 180 scientific publications came to this conclusion. Id also assume you believe hydroxychloroquine is dangerous. If so please explain what led to that conclusion. Because all due respect, I have a feeling that the reason you refrain from actually debating is because you understand that the only thing you have is credentials; not facts. Just tell me if I’m wrong on that.
-explain to me how studies that used extremely high doses can used as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage
-explain to me how studies performed on hospitalized patients can be used as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when utilized in an outpatient setting
-explain to me how studies that exclude zinc can be as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective when given with zinc
These are not my questions. These questions can be attributed to many hundreds of doctors around the country. But you are the expert. Surely you can answer these questions with ease. I’ll wait patiently.Its really incredible to watch the liberals suppress this life-saving drug, and then go on to blame trump for the 215k deaths. Would be hilarious if it wasnt so sad.
Shocking how this comes back to defending trump’s honor.
Defending trumps honor? Who cares about his “honor”, some of us are just marveling at how far people can stretch and twist to make even Gds hand come from the white house.
“Defending trumps honor? Who cares about his “honor”, some of us are just marveling at how far people can stretch and twist to make even Gds hand come from the white house.”
Amen.
The danger that Trump believes in is herd immunity where you infect people on purpose and it is unknown how many will die.
se2015
This is not about defending trump. This is about political and pharmaceutical interests taking precedence to 215k lives. This is disgusting. This is frightening. Your lack of concern(assuming you aren’t ignorant on this subject) reflects the type of person you are. It is becoming increasingly clear to me that liberalism, and TDS are indeed mental disorders. I dont see any other way an orthodox jew can stoop so low as to politicize this issue.Oh Charlie, -“You can look me up and you will see that I have over 180 scientific publications with my name on it and I have been principal investigator on four government funded research grants”
Oh Charlie – Do you know what the Word – “Clinical” means? You should have learned that in Elementary School.
“You have absolutely no evidence for that statement. And you post anonymously”
I answered that already in the Topic called “Yale Hydroxy”.
It’s NOT MY Fault that YOU ONLY POST Yourself & DON’T READ Others’ POSTS!
From that Topic:
“The NYU Study found a 44% reduction in Mortality, when given before needing ICU Admission.”Values, you’re the one making this about politics. If you have evidence to support your wild conspiracy theories, please share it. The fact that most in the scientific community do not believe hcq is a miracle drug is not proof of a conspiracy.
Firstly, “most of the medical community” -don’t know where you pulled that one from as there are hundreds of doctors around the country, (wherever it’s not illegal that is) who are currently successfully using hydroxychloroquine. My proof is those doctors as well as every country using it has a far lower death rate. The notion that only RCT are acceptable as evidence of efficiency is made up fauci garbage(-Dr Harvey Risch, Yale epidemiologist). “If you have evidence to support your wild conspiracy theories, please share it”.
-retracted Lancet study, a study aimed at discrediting hydroxychloroquine, a study that was caught using fake manufactured data.
-fauci touting studies performed on hospitalized patients as proof hydroxychloroquine is ineffective -despite the fact that it’s OUTPATIENT usage that makes hydroxychloroquine effective!
-touting studies that give patients lethal doses(800-2400mg)as proof hydroxychloroquine is dangerous when given in low dosage.(200mg)
-touting studies that exclude zinc when hydroxychloroquine is far more effective when given with zinc.These aren’t flaws that I dreamed up. These are flaws that doctors around the country are calling fauci out on. This is not a “wild conspiracy theory” . This has actually taken place. Now you explain why you think I’m wrong.
You’re repeating why you think the medical establishment is wrong about hcq (or more precisely, why some experts believe other experts are wrong about hcq) but none of that is proof of a conspiracy. If you have proof, please share it.
Since you’ve been mentioning Dr Harvey risch’s, you must know that a number of his colleagues signed a letter opposing his views on hcq on scientific grounds.
TVOP – You’re wasting your time trying to convince these Democrats. They will do anything to make sure Trump looks Bad.
They suffer from TDS.
I started looking at AIDS when Fauci started his job. At that time, the best thing forward was to quarantine the pts. Why didn’t they? Maybe it would remove AIDS as a threat? There’s something Wrong with his Logical thinking!Se2015
The truth is “conspiracy” is the wrong term to label this situation. A conspiracy usually refers to something completely unknown. This is not something unknown. This is happening out in the open. The arguments being used to discredit hydroxychloroquine can be dismantled by a ten yr old. This is medical malpractice being performed in front of our eyes. The majors flaws in the studies being used to discredit HQC are being pointed out by top medical experts, but the truth is anyone can point them out. They are so glaringly obvious. There is not one anti-HQC doctor who can answer the questions listed above. And maybe the reason you haven’t heard from the doctors promoting HQC is because they are constantly being censured and silenced. By youtube, by twitter ect..This is unprecedented. Doctors being silenced for not expressing views the mainstream media wants you to see…truly disturbing. Fake studies being published in the Lancet and NEJM. Unheard of. And despite being retracted, the ramifications they caused were devastating. Trials were discontinued and never resumed, other trials were never able to get underway due to lack of participants resulting from the participants fear of the “dangerous” drug, as it was described by that fake fraudulent debunked retracted study….all that I’ve just said isn’t a conspiracy. It isn’t a theory. It actually happened in front of everybody’s eyes.se2015 -“You’re repeating why you think the medical establishment is wrong about hcq (or more precisely, why some experts believe other experts are wrong about hcq)”
Stop calling Fauci & a few Docs – “the medical establisment”! Because some of Us believe in Zn + HCQ for Covid19.
“Since you’ve been mentioning Dr Harvey risch’s, you must know that a number of his colleagues signed a letter opposing his views on hcq on scientific grounds.”
Did you even look at that Letter from Yale?!?
I did! The article quotes 4 opposing Studies.
One was just Monkeys, not Humans.
The other 3 studies – Didn’t include Zinc!
So we have Millions of DEATHS because “the medical establisment” – Won’t give HCQ + Zinc for Covid19!!!Se2015
Do you really think for one second that fauci is unable to differentiate between a study conducted on hospitalized patients given without zinc and given in high dose, and a study performed on pre-hospital patients, given in low dose, and with zinc? I have a hard time believing that.TVOP -“Do you really think for one second that fauci is unable to differentiate between a study conducted on hospitalized patients given without zinc and given in high dose, and a study performed on pre-hospital patients, given in low dose, and with zinc?”
He’s extremely clever Guy! He came up with the Statement that there isn’t a RCT that HCQ + Zinc works for Covid19.
All Gov. employees care about is one thing & that is their Job.
If there are cures for everything, you don’t Need the NIH!Why didn’t he stop AIDS when there was only a few hundred pts.?!?
Why look for a cure?
The Gov. wants to do Contact tracing on Millions of Covid19, but they couldn’t do it on a few 100 AIDS pts.
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