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List of Reasons Why Chareidim Cannot Govern Eretz Yisrael:
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining roads or bus routes.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in collecting or processing garbage.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining embassies in foreign countries.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in Air Traffic Control or inspecting airplanes.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in generating and distributing electricity.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in catching and prosecuting shoplifters and car thieves.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in building bridges or collecting tolls.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in purifying and distributing water to all.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining sewers and processing sewage.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in delivering mail & packages & printing postage stamps.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in inspecting buildings or vehicles for structural safety.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in teaching: math, chemistry, physics or engineering.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in regulating the flow of products in and out of seaports.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in regulating banks or stock brokers or stock exchanges.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring, and paying hospital employees.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in ensuring that workers are treated fairly by employers.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in analyzing the performance of government agencies.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in defending the people and land from invaders and terrorists.
The only thing they care about —
***** ONLY ***** THING THEY CARE ABOUT
— is studying Talmud 100% of the time.Everything else, they ignore or laugh at.
When Jews lived in exile, we never needed to maintain roads or collect garbage,
because those necessary tasks were done by the Gentiles.Now that we live in our own land, we must do those things for ourselves,
but Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in doing those things.Therefore, Chareidim cannot govern Eretz Yisrael, because
they are NOT INTERESTED in doing the duties of government.If any Chareidi would show a sincere interest in: maintaining roads,
or collecting garbage, or building bridges, or regulating seaports,
that person would be accused of Bitul Torah and condemned
and made into an outcast. His entire family would suffer.Babylonian Talmud, tractate Pesachim, page 112A:
Rabbi Akiva taught his son Rabbi Yehoshua:
…Do not live in a city whose leaders are scholars.
(I assume this is because Torah Scholars are
not interested in performing the mundane tasks
that are necessary to maintain a city.)תלמוד בבלי מסכת פסחים דף קיב/א
צוה רבי עקיבא את רבי יהושע בנו:
,בני אל תשב בגובהה של עיר ותשנה
.ואל תדור בעיר שראשיה תלמידי חכמים.Square, you make clear Chareidim are terrible people.
I’m sure you advocate that they be placed into Concentration Camps and forced to wear a Yellow Star, to keep them away from good people like yourself and others.
Chareidim (the real ones, such as Satmar and Eidis Hareidos – as opposed to those who participate in the Israeli parliament and government in the hope of getting money as a reward), want an autonomous community. There were willing to let the goyim ran the mundane things, as long as they respected the autonomy of the frum community. While the period that ended in 1914 was not especially peaceful for anyone (though it was a lot better than what came afterwards), the Jews in Eretz Yisrael were left alone and were not seriously impacted by the problems and wars of the Ottoman Empire, had more rights than persecuted minorities in America, and the community steadily grew.
This is a very nice rant but no Charedi has ever in the history of the state attempted to run the whole country. No gadol has ever advocated for this.
Chareidim do not want to rule E”Y because G-d does not want Jews ruling it until He sends Mashiach at which time he will rule there.
If the Zionists had not invaded against the will of the chareidim, then the gentiles would be the ones taking care of all those things.Regardless, where is Keith and his Lashon HaRa concerns? You have the nerve to claim that chareidim do not care about performing their civic duties in government, etc. despite that there are chareidi mayors of cities (and other chareidi civic leaders) who obviously do perform their duties there. How disgusting of you to spread this motzi shem ra.
It is also very Zionist of you to abuse a gemara in the service of your idol and also against Torah scholars. Ben Yehoyada states that Rabbi Akiva was concerned that since the city is run by talmidei chachamim that they would ask his son Rabbi Yehoshua to be part of that city government, which would cause a deficiency in this learning. He gives alternate reasons that are also very unlike what you “assume”.
Hakatan your wrong because reality says their ruling already so either it’s Devine will or mashaich is already here and we missed him
Chareidim are the only ones INTERESTED in making shiduchim for short men in Israel
Chareidim are the only ones INTERESTED in making shiduchem for fat girls
Chareidim are only ones INTERESTED in inviting bitter alter bucherim for meals.Please keep your ameratzis to yourself. Hashem never said Jews cannot risk EY. Pure ignorance.
I see the charediem and how they govern. They are corrupt, selfish and most are to Erlich. I would never want to live under their control until Moshiach can ensure people act Ehrlich
You clearly have no knowledge of well ran Chareidi cities in Israel. Beitar Illit for example consistently wins awards for it’s cleanliness and beauty. But that is besides the point. No Chareidi wants to run Israel. Regardless of the many nuanced shades of hashkafa towards the Medina, there isn’t one Chareidi stream that wants to run the country. Your hate for Charedim comes across loud and clear, but so does your complete ignorance.
english > No gadol has ever advocated for this.
right, even Moshe Rabbeinu was refusing several times.
> to abuse a gemara (Pesachim, page 112A)
same thing again – find one opinion and claim everyone who disagrees is a rasha
Meiri explains like SQROOT
Ben Ish Hai in addition to what you quote, brings another explanation: that people will hate those chachamim in power who rebuke them and also hate other talmidei chachamim. This is similar to what R Wein writes about anti-religious hate coming from the kehillot in Russia being responsible for forcibly drafting children and ensuring compliance.
As we are here , here is other advice from R Akiva to his son:
Make your Shabbat like a weekday and do not be beholden to other beings;
Join a successful person (in business, I presume)I mean, we had religious kehilot for centuries. Poland had vaad arba artzos that governed Jews in the whole country, collected taxes, and did not depend on goyishe charities. According to a chacham who studied history of Jewish Poland, Jewish institutions were parallel to Polish ones in their structure, that is up to the “modern” business and government practices of the day (and Poland was very advanced until industrialization, where they were so happy to be selling Ukrainian wheat to the West where people moved to cities to work, so Poland missed the boat of growing industry themselves.
FYI, the Moetzes in the Third Knessia Gedola called for a state with Torah leadership:
ארצנו הקדושה נתונה לנו מאדון העולם בשבועה וברית עולם למען לחיות בה חיי התורה לשמה ולקיים מצותיה, ועם ישראל קשור בה בכל רוחו ונשמתו לנצח נצחים, ומפני חטאינו גלינו מארצנו והשי”ת הבטיח לנו ע”י נביאיו הקדושים כי יגאלנו ע”י משיח צדקנו וזה עיקר מעיקרי דת קדשנו אשר כל בן ישראל מחוייב להאמין בזה.
זכות עם ישראל על הארץ הקדושה יסודה בתורה הקדושה וביעודי הנביאים, קיום מדינה יהודית אפשרי רק אם חוקת התורה מוכרת בה בתורת החוקה היסודית של הארץ ושלטון התורה בהנהגת המדינה, מדינה של יהודים אשר אינה מיוסדת על חוקי שלטון תורה היא התכחשות למקור ונצח ישראל ושוללת את מהותו וצביונו של עם ישראל וחותרת את יסוד קיום עמנו וחודלת להיות מדינה יהודית.
הארץ הקדושה אשר הקב”ה הציב גבולותיה בתורה הקדושה נתונה לעם ישראל עם עולם, וכל ותור שהוא על אדמות קודש הנתונה לנו ע”י הקב”ה בגבולותיה אין בו ממש.
מועצת גדולי התורה מכירה שעל מו”מ המתנהל על אודות גורל ארץ הקדושה בלי השתתפות שלוחי היהדות החרדית אין לו יסוד משפטי. מועצת גדולי התורה פונה לכל בני ישראל בקריאה עזה חוצבת להבות אש לעזור בשעה חמורה ואחרית כזו לאגו”י בעבודת בנין אה”ק בהגנת טהרת וקדושת א”י לחזק בה את הישוב החרדי ולהטביע חותם שמירת התורה וקדושת הארץ על כל החיים באה”ק.
מתוך “הפרדס”, שנה י”א, חוברת ו’ עמוד 8
Loose Translation:
Artzeinu Hakedosha was given to us by the Ribbono Shel Olam through an oath and eternal bris, so that we should live therein a life of Torah lishma and fulfill its mitzvos. Klal Yisroel is bound to it with their entire spirit and neshama l’netzach netzachim. Because of our aveiros we were exiled from our land, and Hashem promised us through His holy nevi’im that He will redeem us through Moshiach Tzidkeinu – and this is an ikar from the fundamentals of our holy emunah that every Jew is chayav to believe.
The zechus of Klal Yisroel to Artzeinu Hakedosha has its yesod in the Torah Hakedosha and the promises of the nevi’im. The establishment of a Jewish medinah is only possible if the constitution of Torah is recognized as the basic constitution of ha’aretz, with Torah leadership governing the medinah. A medinah of Jews that is not founded on the laws of Torah governance is a denial of the source and permanence of Yisroel, negates the essence and character of Klal Yisroel, undermines the yesod of our people’s existence, and ceases to be a Jewish medinah.
Artzeinu Hakedosha, whose gvulos the Kadosh Baruch Hu established in the Torah Hakedosha, is given to Klal Yisroel as an eternal people. Any vittur whatsoever on admas kodesh that was given to us by the Kadosh Baruch Hu within its gvulos has no substance.
The Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah recognizes that negotiations being conducted regarding the goral of Artzeinu Hakedosha without the hishtafus of representatives of Torah Jewry has no legal yesod. The Moetzes Gedolei HaTorah calls to all bnei Yisroel with a powerful cry blazing like flames of fire to help in this grave and critical sha’ah for Agudas Yisroel in the avodah of building up Artzeinu Hakedosha, defending the taharah and kedusha of Eretz Yisroel, strengthening the frum yishuv there, and impressing the chosam of shemiras haTorah and kedusha of ha’aretz upon all chaim in Artzeinu Hakedosha.Religious Jews are pretty good at systems hello. If you give them money and tell them what they need to do it will look like Dubai in no time
When REMMS came to EY he became a street sweeper. When the LR came to US he was an electrical engineer. Many Rabbonim were postmen and school teachers. RAK daughter ran NYC Human resources.
Do you really think The Israeli Supreme Court would allow it? They aren’t even allowing Bibi to institute reforms. So I don’t think the Haredim will be running the country anytime soon.
As far as: Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring, and paying hospital employees. There are many hospitals founded and run by Haredim, such as Laniado Hospital founded by the Kluasenberger Rebbi.
It may surprise you that here In New York there are communities such as Kiryat Joel which are total run by Chasidim in which Police, Fire, Sanitation and education are provided. They maintain water and sewage, maintain the roads and parks and insure that there is adequate housing for their community .
As far as Air Traffic Control and maintaining air planes. There is a Haredi unit of the IAF that is already maintaining fighter planes. It should also be noted that the owner of ELAL is Haredi.
The Haredi community grew by 70% between 2009 and 2022, and projections suggest they could constitute 50% of the Jewish population by 2060, Probably sooner if more of the secularist emigrate or die out.Square root,
I think you need to start listening to music again
Such hatred and lies (as Hakatan pointed out, but additionally there are news articles praising the work of the chareidi politicians from various daati or cholini residents and politicians)
Abba> Do you really think The Israeli Supreme Court would allow it?
SC can be overturned by knesset – if there is large enough majority in knesset and in the streets for that. So, if you make sure that charedim are aligned with the rest of observant Jews, then, if demographics holds, such majority will happen way before 2060.
zvei dinim:
Not exactly. As your name implies, it’s two separate matters.They did not call for a “State”, as that was and is against the shevuos, etc. They did, however, assume (which was not a given, as the Brisker Rav pointed out, because kesher reshaim aino min haMinyan) that the Zionists were going to anyways make a “State”, so, given that, the Moetzes statement indicated that their “State” needed to have Torah leadership.
Square root is a total embarrassment
He should delete his vile rant , full of motsi shem ra
He complains about rodaif , while he himself is one
He seems like one big hypocrite …
.Could you imagine Charedim running Israel’s emergency services?
Operator: What’s your emergency?”
Caller: My baby has a high fever & a terrible cough.
Operator: I want you to place half a medium sized sauteed onion under their pillow for 3 nights in a row while saying Kapital Chof Daled every morning. Call back if they don’t improve in 3 days.Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining roads or bus routes.
? Lakewood/Monsey buses are chareidi.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in collecting or processing garbage.
Neither are chilonim. Menial labor in Israel is usually done by Arabs.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining embassies in foreign countries.
Could be. Do you have any evidence for that?
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in Air Traffic Control or inspecting airplanes.
I happen to know a Chareidi Air traffic controller (in usa)
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in generating and distributing electricity.
uh……most Chareidi neighborhoods have generators for Shabbos. With Chareidi electricians.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in catching and prosecuting shoplifters and car thieves.
no? What parsha is it this week? Ever heard of shomrim?
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in building bridges or collecting tolls.
i know of more than one Chareidi contractor. i somehow doubt they discriminate against bridges. and i can ensure you they would absolutely love collecting tolls. BTW how many bridges are there or necessary in EY?
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in purifying and distributing water to all.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in maintaining sewers and processing sewage.
see above re menial labor.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in delivering mail & packages & printing postage stamps.
see above.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in inspecting buildings or vehicles for structural safety.
Probably true.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in teaching: math, chemistry, physics or engineering.
And therefore? They can’t govern a country?
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in regulating the flow of products in and out of seaports.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in regulating banks or stock brokers or stock exchanges.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring, and paying hospital employees.
yad sara…..ezer mitziyon……
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in ensuring that workers are treated fairly by employers.
yes they are.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in analyzing the performance of government agencies.
well please please please don’t kid yourself into thinking the current Israeli government is.
Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in defending the people and land from invaders and terrorists.
Well you finally have a point……….although they wouldn’t be busy pleasing all the other countries, so likely it would be one and done.
I see the charediem and how they govern. They are corrupt, selfish and most are to Erlich. I would never want to live under their control until Moshiach can ensure people act Ehrlich
And what do you say about the current, non-Chareidi government?
.
… The establishment of a Jewish medinah is possible if the constitution of Torah is recognized as the basic constitution of EY, with Torah leadership governing the medinah …[moetetset gdolei hatorah – marienbad 1937]
.@square root
when are you going to delete your vile motsi shem ra rant about haredim ?
or alternatively ,
delete your multiple posts accusing others of motsi shem ra ?
.
.It is also very Zionist of you to abuse a gemara in the service of your idol and also against Torah scholars. Ben Yehoyada states that Rabbi Akiva was concerned that since the city is run by talmidei chachamim that they would ask his son Rabbi Yehoshua to be part of that city government, which would cause a deficiency in this learning. He gives alternate reasons that are also very unlike what you “assume”.
Talking about abusing Torah for your own benefit, HaKatan conveniently ignored the first line of Ben Yehoyada: “See pirush Rashi” (and he should’ve checked Rashi first anyhow).
Rashi: “Do not live in a city whose heads are Torah scholars – for they are occupied with learning and not with community matters.”
Could you imagine Charedim running Israel’s emergency services?
Operator: What’s your emergency?”
Caller: My baby has a high fever & a terrible cough.
Operator: I want you to place half a medium sized sauteed onion under their pillow for 3 nights in a row while saying Kapital Chof Daled every morning. Call back if they don’t improve in 3 days.Yeah, this is exactly what happens whenever I call Hatzalah.
They are not governed by the Torah, so I expect them to lie.
Where is square root ?
does he take responsibility for his vile rant ?
or is he hiding ?
.
katan :
Chareidim do not want to rule E”Y …
—Katan is not a spokesman for haredim .
the overwhelming majority of haredim who do participate in israeli elections , do want to rule EY ….
if they would constitute a majority , they would rule .
don’t be fooled by katans rigid adherence to a literal reading of SR writings .
his comments reflect nothing more .
.
.> medium sized sauteed onion under their pillow for 3 nights
to be fair, Gemora more often recommends eating various foods than other actions with them. And I think the correct understanding of these gemoras that used the science of their time, fused the source they knew, and added their own observations – is that we need to take modern to us science and add our chochma and Torah to that and then share that knowledge (there is a ref in Avoda Zara about one of a Tanna getting treatment from a non-Jewish lady, then asking for the ingredients on the account of upcoming shabbat, giving his word that he will keep the secret, and then sharing it with everyone).
So, if you end learning that page with Rashi and Ben Ish Hai – you are wrong. You need to take pharmacology book and not move until the next daf until you finished all medical and statistical studies.
Why is the ‘motsi shem ra’ square root , accusing other people of being ….. motsi shem ra ?
.
.@square
1] first of all — it is absolutely NOT true , —- what you wrote , is just plain ridiculous
2] second — issurei lashon hara apply when it IS true ….
who gave you a heter ?
the same God Who commanded us about motsi shem ra , commanded us about lashon hara …..
why are you getting worked up about katan’s motsi shem ra , and not about your own lashon hara ???
isn’t that hypocritical ??
two weeks before yom hadin ?
.
..
You blew this one big time
“Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring and paying hospital employees.”
Guess you are completely unaware of Kiryat Sanz Laniado Hospital in Netanya. They train nurses and other hospital employees. A fully Chareidi hospital that has never gone on strike.
The CTL family has supported this instruction since before the first shovel of dirt was removed from the ground.
Kudos to Rav Halbersram Z”L the Klausenberger Rebbe who turned a dream into a reality.@Square Root
You blew this one big time
“Chareidim are NOT INTERESTED in the training, hiring and paying hospital employees.”
[square root]
—Guess you are completely unaware of Mayanei Yeshu’a Hospital in Bnei Brak. They train nurses and other hospital employees. A fully Chareidi hospital that has never gone on strike.
The Haredi Freshwater family has supported this institution.
Kudos to Dr Rothshild z’l , a fully haredi physician, who turned a dream into a reality.
..
Time has come for Square Root to apologize and delete his vile motsi shem ra …..
.
.@Square Root
Thank you for your response.
You realize that I actually read your posts and comment; and then only take issue or refute things for which I have facts/evidence as opposed to an opinion.Much of what you wrote reflects reality in EY
Wishing you and yours a Chativa v Chatima Tova and ask that you be Moichel to me if I have committed an avera against you
@ square root
Thank you for your response.
Sorry , but What you wrote does not reflect reality .
You should really withdraw the rest of your writing about haredim too – not only the part about hospitals .
Most of it is demonstrably incorrect.
Wishing you and yours -like coffee – a Chativa v Chatima Tova and ask that you be Moichel to me if I have committed an avera against you
.SQRT> many of my best ideas have often come to be during prayer, especially prayer with a minyan.
indeed, one of the purposes of the community prayer is so that a person takes a wider view: a traveling salesman might daven for the dry weather, but when he davens with the farmers, he might take into account that they need rain (and, of course, he will then realize that he also needs farmers to have rain – so that he will have what to sell next year!). So, it is natural that your thoughts at the minyan should take into account opinions of others. In a sense, CR achieves same goal – we are all thinking out loud in the presence of others who are (too?) quick to help us by pointing out errors.
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