May 7, 2021 10:13 am at 10:13 am #1971788
Philosophical question of the day:
Can someone be a rebbetzin if her husband isn’t a Rov?May 7, 2021 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1971822Little FroggieParticipant
Good question. Ask Frogette!!May 7, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1971823Yserbius123Participant
Far vos nisht? There’s a well known and chasiv Rebbetzin who runs a seminary whose husband is a huge talmid chacham, but worked as a banker and I don’t believe ever got semicha.May 7, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1971825
Better said why do people overuse the term Rebbetzin, when someone says something like both you and yoour rebbitzen are invited, so I tell them I am not a Rebbeh and my wife is not a Rebbotzen I am a yid and my wife is a yiddeneh.May 7, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1971826
Can someone not be a rebbetzin if her husband is a Rov?May 7, 2021 11:05 am at 11:05 am #1971827
Wbat does a Rov mean. a shul, semicha or a talmid chacham? What if her father is/was a Rov?May 7, 2021 11:06 am at 11:06 am #1971828
Who was the one in some shtetl that the people would say, “it is worth the whole salary just for the Rebetzin, the Rav just comes along with her”?May 7, 2021 12:00 pm at 12:00 pm #1971838
It says גם ושתי המלכה and later it says ותמאן המלכה ושתי explains the Yaaros Devash that Achashverus said that you are a queen because of me and without me you are nothing. Vashti did not come, saying that you were a horse trainer to my father and you could not even afford wine whereas myself was a queen before you married me as my father was a king.May 7, 2021 12:04 pm at 12:04 pm #1971841besalelParticipant
ujm touched upon an important point. The Hareidi world has always recognized female rabbis (Reb’ Yemima Mizrachi, for example. the woman mentioned by yserbius, another example). We simply used the term we already had in place for the wives of Rabbis and applied it to female rabbis. Is the difference between the Hareidi world and the open orthodox world on this issue just a matter of semantics?May 7, 2021 12:56 pm at 12:56 pm #1971856
The above proves somewhat that she can be a Rebbetzin before getting married as Vashti argued that she was a queen before marrying Achashverus.May 7, 2021 6:51 pm at 6:51 pm #1971888
>> she can be a Rebbetzin before getting married as Vashti argued that she was a queen before marrying Achashverus.
indeed, Esther became Mordechai’s Rebbe, and her husband was not just not a Rav or Rebetzin, but mamash a goy.May 8, 2021 10:41 pm at 10:41 pm #1972011
After some research the above quote is real. It is from the townspeople of Shedlitz about Rebbetzin Henna Cheyenna Anolick.May 9, 2021 1:25 am at 1:25 am #1972022
What is with your average lady being refered to a rebitzen ie I am inviting you and your rebitzen to sheva brochosMay 9, 2021 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1972031ParticipantParticipant
a rebitzin without her rav is nothing.May 9, 2021 2:37 am at 2:37 am #1972034
CommonSechel: That’s probably a tznius gender, as one shouldn’t refer to someone else’s wife by her first name.
Reb Eliezer: Vashti is a very bad example for us to follow.
Besalel: In your examples, those women do not act in a pastoral or pulpit roles.May 9, 2021 5:23 am at 5:23 am #1972048
Besalel’s point has to do with each movement having to portray one way to their community and a different face to the other immunity. The women he mentioned give hashkafa/chaizzuk on the right, which is not much different than pulpit/pastoral roles on the left.
I’m aware that this could be pickled apart. But please give it an extra minute of thought. It is theoretically possible for one woman to do the same thing in two different communities, and it can result in two completely different titles.
Any observant group that has a disagreement with another observant group, will find the same disallowed cause in abundance within their own ranks. We just give it the appropriate label. And complain that a totally different community has different titles for a similar role or idea.May 9, 2021 5:24 am at 5:24 am #1972062johnkletsParticipant
The English queen and her husband Prince PhilipMay 9, 2021 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1972095
“The women he mentioned give hashkafa/chaizzuk on the right, which is not much different than pulpit/pastoral roles on the left. ”
Picked apart? Those are 2 completely different roles. Its like saying a school nurse is not much different than a doctor because they both apply bandaids to kids.
“Any observant group that has a disagreement with another observant group”
Second false premise. Which is why your comment and besalels are invalid.
If you wish to discuss your observation in a different context than that would be a seperate thought.May 9, 2021 6:32 am at 6:32 am #1972096
i would add that i probably disagree with your statement as there seems to be a lack of understanding of roles that can lead to the false belief that it is the same role but differently labled.May 9, 2021 10:19 am at 10:19 am #1972114
@ujm, how about just saying you and your wife or the two of you, I think its absurd when they call the truck drivers wife rebitzen.May 9, 2021 10:20 am at 10:20 am #1972127
Please do not misunderstand me. (I did not write out my thoughts well.) I am not trying to push the envelope. Nor am trying to justify those who do. I just think that the difference in what the title is applied to, is similar to the difference in what they actually do. If there was a way to boil it down to algebraic form, [Which I get is wrong. These debates exist, because there is no absolute way to view these things. So I am using what would be a subjective view of objectivity.] It would be something like X*x = Y*x. As far as I could tell, there is no Rebitzzen who is filling the traditional role of a posek.
My point is that pastoral roles are much smaller among groups that are more broad with who can be in that role. For your example, I’m okay with hiring a doctor with a fake medical degree to put band ages on kids.
I admit to not giving a proper understanding of the roles under discussion. Maybe it is totally wrong to give this title to that role. I do not know. And I am not even one bit hinting that it is productive. And I do not believe that it is same role. Just more similar than the labels would indicate.
In sum, I’m walking back my first statement a bit. It was written with more clarity than it deserved.May 9, 2021 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1972167
The above proves somewhat that she can be a Rebbetzin before getting married as Vashti argued that she was a queen before marrying Achashverus.
Inapt comparison. The classic definition of a rebbetzin is a rav’s wife, but a queen does not have to be a king’s wife.May 9, 2021 10:37 am at 10:37 am #1972168
i would add that i probably disagree with your statement as there seems to be a lack of understanding of roles that can lead to the false belief that it is the same role but differently labled.
I think a rabbi in a chareidi community has a different role than a rabbi in a modern community. So if a “rebbetzin” in a chareidi community plays a similar role as a rabbi in a modern community (public speaking/chizuk), does that make her a MO rabbi?May 9, 2021 10:39 am at 10:39 am #1972170
To answer the OP, it’s become common to use the term rebbtzin in a nonliteral way, e.g. “I am inviting you and your rebitzen to sheva brochos” (CS objected to that, but it doesn’t bother me, since the term rebbetzin doesn’t really have that much importance to me).
Using the term for a public speaker whose husband isn’t a rabbi sort of expands that.May 9, 2021 12:57 pm at 12:57 pm #1972191
“Can someone not be a rebbetzin if her husband is a Rov?”
20 years ago my nephew-in law took a shul pulpit in NJ. A few weeks after he started the shul bulletin came out and it listed a number of classes for ladies to be taught by my niece.
She took one look at the bulletin and broke out laughing.
My niece called the shul president and said: ‘you hired my husband to be Rav, you didn’t hire and aren’t paying me.’ The president replied that the former Rebbitzen always taught those classes, and for free. My niece said: ‘I’m an attorney, I have a practice and my time is billed at $400 per hour. If you would like to hire me send me a contract and a serious offer.’
My nephew in-law notified the shul that he would perform the duties of his one year contract and was not interested in a renewal. He would prefer a congregation where everything was disclosed during negotiations and not after the contract was signed.
20 years later, he is still a shul Rav and she is still a practicing attorney, not a RebbetzinMay 9, 2021 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1972183
Sorry. I just re-read it. It is still not written well. Let me get it off my mind. And I’ll try again some other day.May 9, 2021 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #1972179
DY: It it fair to say that “rebbetzin” has simply become to (almost) be used as another way of saying “wife” or “Mrs.”?May 9, 2021 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1972194BenephraimParticipant
Please correct me if I error. Firstly the Shedlitzer was Rav Pam’s uncle. Secondly , in some Yeshivas ,the Rosh Yeshivista was more of an influence on the bachurim than the Rosh Yeshiva. Similarly in some Young Israel’s the Rabbanit was better in Gemara than the Rav because her yichus was greater even though the Rav finished shas at 17 in Brownsville. Anyone remember?May 9, 2021 3:29 pm at 3:29 pm #1972208
CTL: $400 an hour 20 years ago? Keineinehora. What’s her rate today?May 9, 2021 5:03 pm at 5:03 pm #1972245hujuParticipant
This thread illustrates my problem with the use of Yiddish. “Rebbetzin” is a fundamental word about an important part of Klal Yisrael and Yiddishkeit, but so many frum people disagree over its meaning. I will not even offer my understanding of the word, because I have no basis for believing my definition is correct, or even half correct.
The English language has no central authority that defines English words or even passes on what words are English and what words are not. There are a few respected dictionaries that take a prescriptive approach to defining English words, and a few other respected English dictionaries that take a descriptive approach. (I prefer the former, but that’s just me.)
The French language has an official board of big shots who pass upon what is French, what is not, and what the French words mean.
I don’t know who, if anyone, governs German, but I am sure it is orderly.
If Yiddish is to continue as an effective language, I think (as illustrated by this thread) it needs a central authority to govern what is and is not Yiddish, and what each word and phrase mean.
So, who wants to be on the board? And who wants to be on the board that appoints the board? And just to be clear, I am surely not qualified for either.May 9, 2021 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #1972246
@ujm, ” It it fair to say that “rebbetzin” has simply become to (almost) be used as another way of saying “wife” or “Mrs.”?:
If thats the case why not use sheiderine or sheterine it make as much sense as this, I say I have a yiddeneh not a rebitzenMay 9, 2021 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1972258
DY: It it fair to say that “rebbetzin” has simply become to (almost) be used as another way of saying “wife” or “Mrs.”?
Not in its more formal use, only in a light-hearted way.May 9, 2021 5:11 pm at 5:11 pm #1972259
If Yiddish is to continue as an effective language
Lol it’s not in any danger of going anywhere.May 9, 2021 7:18 pm at 7:18 pm #1972269
She practices almost exclusively in Federal Courts. She bills $750 at the District Court (trial) level, $1,000 at the Court of Appeals and $1500 if she has to appeal to the Supreme Court (she prefers not to go to DC, but has appeared a few times over the years).
Her speciality is Federal Labor Law and discrimination in the workplace.May 10, 2021 1:59 am at 1:59 am #1972361
Ctlawyer, it was wrong for her to laugh, she should have simply billed her rate. I am sure the shul would appreciate Torah enough for a measly 400. The halakha is you can charge for missing work, not for teaching, and also if you hire someone without asking for a price, you will have to pay the reasonable amount.
One Rav in CT in fact claimed tongue in cheek that he went to law school do that he can ask for a higher salary as a Rav for missing workMay 10, 2021 8:49 am at 8:49 am #1972379ParticipantParticipant
apparently someone who doesn’t give classes can’t be a rebitzin.May 10, 2021 9:22 am at 9:22 am #1972479hujuParticipant
To DaasYochid: If Yiddish is not going anywhere, are you saying it will not go into the future? Is your command of Yiddish any better than your command of English?May 10, 2021 9:29 am at 9:29 am #1972492
I have semicha and my wife is not learned. She wasn’t raised frum, didn’t go to a seminary, but instead works with children and is a tzadeikes and eishes chayil. For that matter, how many of our grandmothers and alter bubbes went to seminaries and were pseudo-rabbis? Like my wife, they knew how to keep a kosher home. They taught the kids to be mentschen and to have good middos, and they were balabustes. They said tehillim, learned a Tzenah u’Renah, went to shul occasionally and that was about it. In many countries such as Morocco, they didn’t even read Hebrew. My wife wouldn’t be the best choice to give classes, and she wouldn’t want to. When I looked for a shidduch, I didn’t care about the ability to learn parshanim and whatnot. Who cares if a woman learns Ramban and Rashi? We all know the famous story with the 2 seminarians who went to see the Steipler, and he asked them if they knew hwo to make kugel. I think the emphasis on women learning has led to troubles and tzaros. The Satmar are right about this.May 10, 2021 9:44 am at 9:44 am #1972500
Dov Rosenblum: Excellent post.May 10, 2021 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1972568
There is a massive misunderstanding when it comes to women stewing Torah. A hundred plus years ago, much of the teaching in yeshivos was done without sefarim. For a women to use a sefer was really uncommon. How many sefarim were available then? But every devout woman was interested in Torah and picked up as much as she could by listening in. Women went to the same Shabbos Hagodol Derasha as the men. But how much time did they have to give to acquiring more Torah?
Today, it is totally different. Women have much more time, and are far more literate. They will have many literary interests. There are numerous works that are crucial for Jews who will develop an organized worldview. So you allow for a woman to have any worldview she wants, except for a Torah one.
And now it reached the point, That when a gadol is speaking by a simcha, the men cannot follow along with his Torah thoughts. Because it does not pertain to the woman at all. And who could blame them? When they wanted to devote themselves to Torah, you barged in yelling “No! No!”May 10, 2021 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #1972577
These is a difference between the qualities that make someone an excellent wife (or husband), and the qualities that makes someone a major asset to their community.
People could have both sets of qualities – or neither – just as much as they could have either.May 10, 2021 3:09 pm at 3:09 pm #1972606
Why was it wrong for her to laugh? She was at home with her husband, read the bulletin and laughed in amusement.
Should she have picked up the phone and given the shul president a piece of her mind for the nerve to publish this without asking her and getting permission? Do you know her schedule was in my open for class times?
Laughter was appropriateMay 10, 2021 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1972612
To DaasYochid: If Yiddish is not going anywhere, are you saying it will not go into the future? Is your command of Yiddish any better than your command of English?
If you’re going to nitpick my terminology, I might as well point out that “the future” is not a place.May 10, 2021 4:38 pm at 4:38 pm #1972646
Women wanting to learn torah like men is a major problem which has led to disasters for klal yisroel, chief among them, the rise of the open orthodox, which takes this unholy desire to its logical conclusion. Once you have women learning torah like men, they’re going to want to be rabbis like men. Even Rav Willig, shlita, from YU has admitted that allowing women to learn gemara is a mistake.May 10, 2021 4:56 pm at 4:56 pm #1972678
What about women being passionate about Judaism like men?
Is that also a major problem?May 10, 2021 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1972699
A woman’s Judaism is being a baalebuste. Caring for the kids. Lighting shabbos candles. Keeping taharas hamishpacha. Being mafrish challah. Cooking.
The idea that women need to be men and do what men do to be good Jews is what’s wrong with klal yisroel and is how we got open orthodoxy.May 10, 2021 7:09 pm at 7:09 pm #1972701
The Magen Avraham had foresight when he paskened not to mqke a difference between shabbos and Yom Tov in the view of the Sma’s wife who recommended that Yom Tov women should say the brocho before lighting candles.May 10, 2021 8:43 pm at 8:43 pm #1972739
Okay. All Jews should be passionate for Judaism. And as long as Torah is the center of Judaism, Jewish woman are expected to be passionate about Torah. As sure as there were Jews in every generation, there were Jewesses that were completely devoted to Torah. Open, closed, sideways, orthodox, orthoprox, frum, or another way, it could only persevere when Torah is central and accessible to all of the community.
“A woman’s Judaism is being a balabusta”
Is there a source for this?
What about when she is too old or young to keep house?
“Caring for the kids.”
All Jews should be caring.
All humans should care for kids.
Almost all creatures care for their own young.
You must have meant something. Source?
And how is it more on women?
He a woman is in a place with no kids, is she still Jewish?
I am a man and I light candles.
Is that really all Shabbos is for women? The Torah stresses it as central to the mitzvos. And all you can thing of is something that is more or less reduced to a ritual.
How does a women keep her personal mitzvos – or any others, if she never learned how? Better question. Why should she think that keeping mitzvos is worthwhile? And how will she know what they mean?
Taking challah is the baker’s obligation. There is no reason for a woman to do it more than a man. I have done it many times.
Giving people a task list, is not the same as the giving of the Torah. We can make a whole list of mitzvos for men. But it is stupid to say that lending money without interest makes you a Jew. Or having a succah. Observance is about actions. Identity is not.
It is a part of her Judaism for her to cook? Does she make a bracha? Many men cook. Source, please. This is just bizarre.
I have no ideas about women being like men or whatever. I do know, That you are asking for fakers when you say people in our community are not allowed to be involved in Torah but must be involved in the community. And nobody will listen to a gadol who only talks Torah since he is off limits to the majority, his statements are worth less. At this point, almost all stripes of orthodoxy has been affected. Or maybe infected. It is almost impossible to hear a pure Torah message that is not diluted to engage those in the community, who were turned off from Torah.May 10, 2021 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #1972756
I find it hard to believe anyone married to a shil rabbi would give such a self aggrandizing response. It’s a total mismatch of values. Even if she was a lawyer and unwilling to teach. No way.May 10, 2021 11:01 pm at 11:01 pm #1972778
CTLawyer, I am not trying to criticize the learned lady, just trying to analyze the situation:
shul is giving her an honor to teach. Why refuse? More importantly, why laugh? I agree with Syag.
Teaching Torah should not be for people who are otherwise not employed. She should have taken on the challenge and bill them accordingly. Take them to beis din if they dont pay. Oops, this is probably not correct. If I learned it correctly, the beis din would have to come to the lady’s house instead of requiring her to show up.
This would have been a teachable moment for everyone!
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