December 14, 2010 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #719576
Bezalel: A Rebbi has the same status as a father, according to halacha.December 14, 2010 9:52 pm at 9:52 pm #719577popa_bar_abbaParticipant
If you are supposed to and don’t: there are other methods which most (frum)experts and rabbonim think are more effective.
If you are not supposed to and you do:
You are transgressing a lav.
And are nikra rasha.
And likely causing irreparable damage emotionally and to his ruchniyos.
So, maybe just play the odds.December 14, 2010 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #719579theObviousMember
Chosech shivto soneh beno…December 14, 2010 10:50 pm at 10:50 pm #719580WolfishMusingsParticipant
I dont think that Shulchan Oruch is applicable nowadays
Heh… That was said four hours ago.
Had I said it, there would have been twelve posts by now protesting “how dare you say the Shulchan Aruch doesn’t apply today…” 🙂
The WolfDecember 15, 2010 1:16 am at 1:16 am #719581BEST IMAParticipant
WolfishMushing i am so sorry! You are right now that im reading it back it sounds terrible! Chas V’sholom i didnt mean to sound like the Shulchan Oruch isnt applicable anymore. What was ok in those times doesnt always work now. Im sure in those times it was different for a Rebbe to tap a child on the wrist with a strap. But from what ive seen having kids in Yeshivos for the last 25 years any incident involving hitting a child was not done out of love.December 15, 2010 3:47 am at 3:47 am #719582HomeownerMember
. . .do you have any idea how many kids grew up hating their parents and rebbeim for hitting them? And lets go a step further, do you know how many never got over it and haven’t forgiven them? I don’t have the statistics on this but there are many.
I went to Yeshiva Toras Emes. I don’t remember what grade this was but we were surely under 10 years old. The principal, an alleged rabbi, called a classmate of mine to the front of the room and smacked him in the face with such force we all could see the red marks from his fingers glowing on the kid’s face.
I don’t know about my classmate but I know I haven’t forgiven him.
This is child abuse, plain and simple. People who do this should be in the same prisons as pedophiles.December 15, 2010 4:25 am at 4:25 am #719583deiyezoogerMember
peanut yes i agree with you one hundred percentDecember 15, 2010 4:26 am at 4:26 am #719584real-briskerMember
bezalel “There is no halacha that states a teacher is obligated to hit a student” correct, but there is a halacha that states one should be machanach their children, and however that needs to get done it should be DONE.December 15, 2010 2:26 pm at 2:26 pm #719586
listen here people
According to the Halacha, a Rebbe is allowed to smack and this can be found in Gittin in Rabianu Chananel
However, if Jews are living in foreign countries, then they have to keep to the law of the country which is that it is forbidden for a teacher/Rebbe to smack a child.December 15, 2010 3:41 pm at 3:41 pm #719588
see my post earlier
YEEDLE FROM LONODN notice lonodn
about the gemmoro gittin.December 15, 2010 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #719589aries2756Participant
Yeedle, At the time of the Gemara, did a Rebbe have 30 talmidim? How was a Rebbe chosen? Did a Rebbe take a job because he couldn’t find anything else and needed to make a parnassa?
Please quote the posuk for all us mothers and grandmothers who don’t learn Gemara. I need to see how that applies to today’s Rebbes who do not necessarily “love” our children and who are working as Rebbes just to make parnasa and not because they love chinuch.December 15, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #719590SJSinNYCMember
People who support hitting children nowadays make me vomit.December 15, 2010 4:13 pm at 4:13 pm #719591maxemilianMember
Ofcourse there is a Heter for everything. In this case when the Rebbe who has allowed himself to smack the kid, should be smacked right back by any of the parents. Ideally it will be twice as strong, some rabbonim say one should multiply by the weight of the child being hit. example if the child weighs
60 pounds, and the rebbe 240 pounds you can hit him 4 times. And if he asks why, tell him you got a Heter from a Chashuva rov. And he asks which rov, tell him the same one that gave you a Heter to hit my child. Also tell him its in the Gemmara. or that Rashi allows one to hit to end a dispute.
Hatzlocha rabaDecember 15, 2010 4:15 pm at 4:15 pm #719592
Feel free to vomit anytime
i dont support people who hit kids. on the contrary, i disagree becasue its against the law of the country so there is no questions about itDecember 15, 2010 4:17 pm at 4:17 pm #719593
the Gemora actually says the rebbe killed the child and he got fired but the gemora doesnt say that he was wrong for what he didDecember 15, 2010 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #719594
It is not true that the rebbeim these days dont love the kids or else the rebbeim wouldnt be hitting so soft. if they hated the kids, then they would be doing much worse stuff and more violence
however, if you think a rebbe is hitting too much,then he has to be removed if he cant control his level of violenceDecember 16, 2010 9:12 pm at 9:12 pm #719595
glad to see yeedle from “london” spelt correctlyDecember 16, 2010 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #719596TheGoqParticipant
one of my fathers relatives was hit by a rebbe (in pre-war europe) and he died as a result, no good can come from hittingDecember 17, 2010 11:46 am at 11:46 am #719597RalphieMember
Only in self-defense.December 19, 2010 6:24 am at 6:24 am #719598
About twenty-five years ago a rebbe in a NY area yeshiva lost his temper and ran a child’s head into the blackboard. The child suffered a brain hemorrhage and died the next day. I knew one of the area social workers who was trying to get some sort of action going against abuse by teachers. The excuse for not firing abusive rebbbeim? Usually, the rebbe has a family to support and needs a parnassah. So for this he can hit students.
There are three good practical reasons for not allowing hitting.
A. One can never be sure that physical harm will not be done, or that the rebbe has enough self-control to limit his actions.
B. If the rebbe needs to hit in order to maintain control, he doesn’t know how to teach and shouldn’t be in a classroom.
C. Abuse of any sort is a major factor in kids going off the derech, especially if the teacher is abusive and the school/parents don’t protect him.
HItting one’s own child is also iffy – if you do it you have to do it right, and know when. Violence is no substitute for seichel, and just because your parent or rebbe hit you, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea now.
BTW, slapping someone in the face is NEVER allowed. It’s being m’vazeh the tzelem Elokim. Remember that if you cause someone’s face to change color that it’s the equivalent of murder.December 19, 2010 6:42 am at 6:42 am #719599
All nice svoros. But the Shulchan Aruch also comments on this issue, which I give greater weight to.December 19, 2010 1:57 pm at 1:57 pm #719600
absolutely Trying my best:
couldn’t have agreed moreDecember 19, 2010 2:37 pm at 2:37 pm #719601oomisParticipant
No, it is legally called child abuse. Only a parent can give a potch where Hashem padded us for that purpose, but never a smack.
Self-defense is a different issue. I am not talking about anything in the Gemorah, because we live in a country where the Gemorah will not count in a legal court of law, so it’s ebst to recognize that before lifting one’s hand to a student.December 19, 2010 4:04 pm at 4:04 pm #719602PortyMember
I am not against giving a child a potch when needed per se, but when is it needed? Also, how can you tell a parent/rebbe that they can hit a child, but regulate how hard, when and why?
When could a rebbe hit a child? When the child doesn’t do his homework? When the child talks during class? I don’t see a situation where a rebbe can legitimately hit a child. A lot of teachers do not have control over their kids (in their class), but smacking a child is not appropriate.December 19, 2010 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #719603
oomis: You are legally wrong. 48 states allow private teachers to potch children. All states allow parents to do so.December 20, 2010 12:28 am at 12:28 am #719604
Potching a kid on the behind in private and smacking a kid on the face in pubic are two very different things. Being a private school teacher doesn’t give you a license to quit being mentshlich.
And the age matters, too. What a five year old will accept will send a ten or fifteen year old straight out the door.December 20, 2010 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #719605
Trying my best- in NY it is called child abuse and CPS must be called if a parent hits other than the following way: They may hit with an open hand (rather than a fist), with nothing in their hand (no belt, book ect), and AS LONG AS NO MARK IS LEFT.
Other than that, pure and simple child abuse. Even by a parent, let alone a teacher.
Quick question- anyone out there who is a social worker, teacher, OT, PT, ect- they are required by law (and halacha) to report them to CPS. Abuse is abuse and there is no excuse for that.December 20, 2010 5:16 pm at 5:16 pm #719606
Oh, and I heard from a reputable source that there is a set of statistics out there that state that when teachers are not paid on time they tend to hit/abuse their students more. On the day that they are late being paid, they hit more than when they are paid. Now, how does this sound appropriate? Where is the love? How are these people able to teach our children Torah?
Oh, and what is the allowance for a Gemara teacher to potch, and not a math or science teacher? If it is allowable for one, it should be for both.December 20, 2010 5:33 pm at 5:33 pm #719607HealthParticipant
TMB -Even though the SA quotes the gemorrah that you’re allowed to hit, many poskim hold that this doesn’t apply in our generation. As a matter of fact, I don’t know any poisek that Matters, even amongst chaddishe poskim! I think the reason that they hold it’s ossur is because in past generations they only did it for the chinuch of the child, but nowadays they mainly do it to relieve their anger!December 20, 2010 5:47 pm at 5:47 pm #719608BEST IMAParticipant
I dont know about halacha-wise but according to the law teachers and pediatricians definately have to report it if there is a suspiciion of child abuse. There was a case that we were involved in where a child called the police on a parent and the first question the police asked was if either one of the parents hit the child. I know a few of you guys here were saying that according to the law its not a problem to hit a child but at the first suspicion of physical abuse the children ARE removed from the home.December 20, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #719609
Can everyone please calm down because i heard from a Rov that Harav Avrohom Pam once said these days we dont hit becasue of love, instead we hit because of anger and therefore we may not hitDecember 20, 2010 5:52 pm at 5:52 pm #719610
Can everyone please calm down because i heard from a Rov that Harav Avrohom Pam once said these days we dont hit becasue of love, instead we hit because of anger and therefore we may not hitDecember 20, 2010 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #719611
hss – you’re wrong. There is no such distinction in NY’s penal code. A parent and (private school) teacher may use a belt.December 20, 2010 7:44 pm at 7:44 pm #719612WolfishMusingsParticipant
hss – you’re wrong. There is no such distinction in NY’s penal code. A parent and (private school) teacher may use a belt.
And if I hear that any teacher at any of kids’ schools used a belt to hit their kid and s/he was not summarily fired, I would withdraw my kids in an instant.
The WolfDecember 20, 2010 7:49 pm at 7:49 pm #719613
trying my best- according to a handbook handed out to immigrant families that lists criteria for abuse (googled NY laws on child abuse and found it) it states:
“Any spanking that leaves a mark or involves hitting your child with an object (like a cane, a coat hanger, or a belt) will be considered child abuse”
“Discipline that causes excessive pain to the child
may be child abuse even if you do not physically hit the child.”
Later it says:
“WHOM DO THESE LAWS APPLY TO?
You should know that under U.S. law, parents and others who care for the child have a duty to protect the child from the danger of excessive discipline.” This includes teachers!
I think this states clearly- NO BELT!December 20, 2010 7:54 pm at 7:54 pm #719614
hss – that handbook is not the law.December 20, 2010 9:23 pm at 9:23 pm #719615
My friend tells me “that there is always another side to the coin”. Therefore, if you hear of an incident, theh you should make sure that somebody has a listening ear and investigates any type of allegation-rather than sweep it under the carpet as maybe done for the sake of conforming and giving a certain impression.
What do you say to this?December 21, 2010 9:16 pm at 9:16 pm #719616
Yeedle, the New York community has had problems with this behavior on every issue that has come up. People are afraid to speak up, afraid to make a fuss. Torah U’Mesorah’s in-yeshiva counseling program got started because twenty-some years ago no parent would take a child for counseling for fear of social disapproval. One boy was depressed and his parents did nothing out of fear. The boy ended by r”l taking his own life. This tragedy shocked some rabbanim into taking quiet action. That generation seems to be gone, though. The current generation of leaders and mechanchim contain far too many people who would rather see children harmed than make a public fuss. That’s why we have frum people going to the media – within the community things are suppressed. I don’t like to give specific names, etc. in the CR but all we need to do is read the newspapers.
I hope things are different in the UK>December 21, 2010 10:29 pm at 10:29 pm #719617
Midwest2, in the UK, things seem to be a little different
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