Recycling

I put all my garbage into the regular garbage. Black bag, tied up.

I know commercial buildings that were ticketed for not recycling.

I think any jew who has an inclination towards environmentalism should consider the following:

Rav hirsch writes that it’s not possible for a species to be extinct; this is based on a lot of sources. (Manu argue with this). Rav Hirsch also writes that אותו ואת בנו, the mitzvah of not shechting a father animal and its son on the same day, is because it looks like extermination.

How does this fit? If we are incapable of extermination, why would we be cautioned against this?

The answer is that Hashem runs the world and nothing we do will affect it physically. We can have as many kids as we are able to, and there will never be a shortage of food or space. We can bathe as much as we want, drive whatever car we want, and fly in as many airplanes as we want, and the world will be just as functional and physically healthy as ever.

Mitzidainu, if we engage in behaviors which look like extermination or destruction of the world (insert italics) to our senses, or in the cases of the torah (as above), then we are guilty lf that aveirah, but as seen by our inability to actually cause extermination, this mitzvah is for our own middos. Similar to having hakaras hatov to inanimate objects, i.e. Moshe not hitting the dirt or the water – it will affect HIM, not the object.

What does affect the world? Our aveiros. The more aveiros the world (and especially klal yisroel) does, Hashem’s brochos are stifled. That our material succcess depends on our fulfillment of the Torah is axiomatic in tanach and chazal – it’s one of the most discuss topics in neviim. Devorim 28, for instance. Ki savo. “Al azvu es Hashem”, “tachas asher lo avadta”, the list goes on and on.

Environmentalism that is taken to mean that we are stewards of ths physical health of the world, and that it is out carbon footprint as opposed to our aveiros that harm the world, are included in the rambams famous piece that says that when bad things happen, and we attribute them to mikroh, to chance…it is not only heresy, but it is cruelty, because in doing so the denier of hashgocha causes others not to repent and continues the cycle of sin and punishment.

Environmentalism from a torah perspective is therefore repugnant, a denial of Hashem’s running the world, a scapegoat for introspection and teshuva should there actually be natural catastrophe, and of course…an import from the goyishe world without a shred of source in Torah.

All of that being said, recycling isn’t itself per force a product of that heresy. One can favor it because we value the things that Hashem has given us, and just as our bubbehs and zaydos would say “a shud yiddishe gelt”, and get as much use out of the scant resources they had…out of not wanting to be wasteful in respect and in gratitude for what Hashem gives us, i can see an ehrlich person in favor of recycling. But joining recycling enthusiasts or publicly advocating it would lend support to the deniers of hashgocha, including “frum” ones who buy into the media(even the “alternative”media personalities with fabric on their head)

Some recycling is a scam, some is very critical. For some metals, such as steel, recycling is critical to the national economy. Done properly it lowers the costs to the local taxpayers who are liable to pay for landfills.

“I put all my garbage into the regular garbage. Black bag, tied up.”.

Azoy…and for all these years we were wondering why Mrs. J had never objected to some of your postings. Mystery solved.

Important to have priorities straight. Having a lofty mushy goal creates a lot of place for mistaken priorities and opportunities for enemy propaganda. Look at western Europeans who decided that thermometer is a bigger enemy than dictators. Now others are paying for their aveiros that they thought were mitzvos.

What about דיני דמלכותא דיני and a Chilul Hashem?

This depends on how people in your environment behave. It does not matter if the whole USA is trashy, but if you live in a clean neighborhood, you would need to uphold the standard. Similarly, if you, R’L live in a country where people don’t cross on red light on an empty street, you would need to do the same.

Avira – And miztvos don’t affect the world?

Reb Eliezer, what Brocho do you make on דיני דמלכותא דיני?

“Hashem runs the world and nothing we do will affect it physically. We can have as many kids as we are able to, and there will never be a shortage of food or space. We can bathe as much as we want, drive whatever car we want, and fly in as many airplanes as we want, and the world will be just as functional and physically healthy as ever.”

Avira – this is quite possibly the most ridiculous thing I’ve ever read on this site (aside from Joseph’s ramblings). Hashem runs the world through teva; i.e. the rules of nature. Our actions directly impact the physical planet that we live on. To deny this is to essentially take the incredible, detailed, fragile, beautiful planet that Hashem provided us with and throw it back in His face. It’s a disgusting attitude, and I hope you don’t spew such garbage to any impressionable people.

Who told you that the world is fragile? You’ve just devoured the claims of the climatologists – the same ones who predicted Armageddon when i was a kid, who said that by now there wouldn’t be coastal civilizations, etc.

Hashem runs the world through teva, but it is not our physical actions that change the world in teva – according to teva statistics in the 80s, the world’s population should not have anything to eat…but ma asah Hkb”h? He made more food available. The answer then wasn’t to, chas veshalom, listen to the statisticians and have less children.

We don’t have bechira to affect anyone else, let alone the world itself. That would undermine hashgocha. Perhaps wastefulness is an act of ingratitude, which itself might cause less bracha in the world as punishment for that sin, but the final outcome is totally bidei shomayim.

The fact that Hashem running the world and that our bechira doesn’t have independent consequences is “ridiculous” to you, only shows how much little you and almost everyone else here have been exposed to basic jewish hashkofa. I’m not saying any big chidushim here.

You’ve never dealt with the shailoh of how we can hurt ourselves if everything is min hashomayim?.

Take a look at rav avigdor miller’s hashkofa seforim, chovos halevavos shaar habitachon, and rav chaim friedlander (who presents the issues very systematically). The upshot is that for instance, playing in traffic on ocean parkway is a sin, so the person is punished for that sin by having the damage dealt ro him.

If someone attempts to poison someone else …here it gets complicated. No one can hurt you without it being a gezerah, ain odom nokev etzbo, etc. Yet a murderer is punished, even though no one can die without it being decreed on rosh Hashanah. The answer is that Hashem considers it as if you did it, because of your intention or negligence. This is how teshuva undoes the sin – it takes your portion, meaning your intention or negligence, out of the picture, and all that remains is the maysoh shomayim in the effect.

How a baal bechirah can affect you is discussed a lot by rav chaim friedlander. He says that his bechirah can bring you into a din torah in shomayim where they’re dan you in a stricter way than normal; he’s meorer dinim on that person by trying to hurt him.

Hence, poisoning the water can only affect others if it was decreed so , especially when it’s a rabim and not an individual. The poisoning would have happened without you, but you are held accountable for the ill intent.

When it comes to what the neviei sheker postulate… they’re not authoritative in deciding what’s a peshia/negligence. They’re political hacks who have no idea how the world works.

Just about every advanced economy in the world has adopted varying degrees of recycling both because of the favorable economics and some cultural/ethical version of “tikun olam”. In NYC and other major metro areas which are literally running out of space to dump solid waste, recycling provides for a small reduction in the need to export trash to more rural states at great cost to taxpayers. Even in developing economies, recycling in its most basic form is an economic imperative and the “waste” of the affluent literally provides economic sustenance to the more impoverished segments of the population. In countries like India and China, there are literally millions of people who survive by sorting through the waste dumped at landfills to find whatever they can resell for a few dollars a day. It becomes a “scam” only when there is no economic or environmental rationale for a particular recycling program and it is being done for some abstract “conservation” reason.

Just because Reformim abuse tikun olam, does not mean that we should go destroy the oilam.

It’s sad to see that according to Avira, “basic Jewish hashkafa” means not caring about being responsible for the health of the world Hashem provided us with, because hey, our actions can’t possibly impact other people, or the world in general. Your “basic Jewish hashkafa” is a disgusting, selfish, elitist attitude that has nothing to do with Judaism at all. edited embrace some common sense. Our actions as humans have consequences, both individually and globally. That is a fact. To deny this is denying how Hashem runs the world.

It’s a real shame someone even needs to bring this to your attention. I hope you don’t influence other people with your horribly selfish attitude.

@AviraDeArah You don’t know how well we have it today. Before climatology became a thing, pollution was allowed to run rampant. The famous “London Fog” was really the “London Smog” and there were weeks where people couldn’t leave their homes without respiratory masks on. Rivers were filled with coal runoff and other carcinogens leading to rampant disease among kids and adults alike. Clean water was hard to come by.

Now, thanks to climate research and a better understanding of the environment, we can actually see the night sky from Manhattan, swim in a stream that’s not covered in plastic, and eat fish without worrying about how much heavy metal we’re absorbing.

Yawn. Avira, nice try trying to diffuse my common sense with a personal slight about my emotional capabilities. The reason sefarim don’t mention my point of view is because it’s common sense. I’d love for you to provide a source that states we can pollute, destroy, and alter the natural state of the world without consequence.

Are you aware that there have been mass extinctions directly caused by humans? That alone is proof that your position is fundamentally flawed. Do more soul searching and pull your head out of the garbage that you love so much.

Avira – I did you a favor and found a source:

Behold my works, how pleasant and how beautiful they are. And I created it all for you! Be aware and don’t ruin or destroy my world, for if you ruin it, there is no one to come and fix it up after you.
ראה מעשי כמה נאים ומשובחין הן וכל מה שבראתי בשבילך בראתי תן דעתך שלא תקלקל ותחריב את עולמי שאם קלקלת אין מי שיתקן אחריך
–Midrash: Ecclesiastes Rabbah, 7:20

Also look into the topic of shiluach hakan and lo sevashel g’di b’chalev imo- the idea that we aren’t allowed to take or kill a mother animal along with its child, because it gives off the appearance of destroying the entire species.

Yehudis, we don’t always know where to go from common sense. Need humility and bitachon. See Europeans who put their trust in wind and sun, and became hostages to Putin. Not only their 20th century did not teach them humility, they still do not admit their errors and continue their self-righteous behavior. So, if we change our lives in pursuit of some lofty goals, we need to make sure that these goals do not lead to corruption. If you make goals simple – be honest, help others a little, and then pursue your own interest, people will do that. If you lure them tofar-awy goals, you never know where tish will lead.

Seeing spiritual causes does not take away a need to respond to physical world. Gemora is full of discussions what does or might happen in various cases and they respect knowledge of agriculture, science, etc. It is not a routine answer in Gemora to say – stop worrying about it, let Hashem take care of it.

Avira, an interesting point re: species. But as we established that R Hirsh is not infallible, we would need a better source. Say Rhinoceri (sp?) are big enough to be seen on satellite imagery. It would not be impossible to search whole earth images for them (if not found – should we presume that they live in someone’s basement?).

There’s a difference between a torah shitoh and a personal hashaarah; when judging someone, we see that even dovid erred in his understanding of his advisors. His torah, however, is Torah, and should be taken as authoritative as any other acharon.

Dear Gadol,

That wouldn’t work according to the quasi scientific principles known in Rav Hirsch’s days. The science of classification is not stable anymore, and may never be. Rav Belsky compared what the yeshivaliet where saying about anasakis was the same thoughts proposed by Rabbi Slifkin. I could understand denying science or even math to hold on to what is an accepted truth. But this sure is a strange hill to be called a fool upon.