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September 13, 2009 3:07 pm at 3:07 pm #659114lesschumrasParticipant
By the way, if weddings in Israel are so inexpensive, why do peoples spend over three thousand dollars in airfare and expenses to come here and collect door to door?
September 13, 2009 3:24 pm at 3:24 pm #659115rwndk1MemberTo lesschumras: the collecting door to door is not for the wedding. Unfortunately in certain circles it is accustomed that the parents buy the young couple an apt. (this can range from 50-50 to the girl’s side paying everything). As much as I don’t approve of this practice, for I don’t see why they can’t move to some cheaper outlying area and even rent if necessary, it certainly makes more sense to spend money on a place for them to live then on weddings where you need a map to tell you which fork to use when. (by the way my experience has been that fancy weddings have less food on the plate – that shows you its all a bunch of fluff and no substance anyway).
September 13, 2009 3:33 pm at 3:33 pm #659116lesschumrasParticipantto rwndk1: It’s not the olom’s responsibility to buy an apartment for the children, nor is it charity.
September 13, 2009 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #659117JosephParticipantA dowry is certainly part of the great mitzvah of Hachnosas Kallah.
September 13, 2009 3:59 pm at 3:59 pm #659118JosephParticipantOne bochur, a tremendous masmid who used to learn day and night, seemed troubled by something and his learning was not as it usually was. Reb Yeruchom Levovitz (Mashgiach at Mir, prior to the war) approached him and tried to engage him in conversation to find out what was bothering him.
“The bochur told him that his sister had become engaged and that his father had promised a sum as a dowry but something had happened and the money had been lost and as a result, the chosson wanted to cancel the shidduch. Nu, how can one immerse oneself in learning with such a sad story gnawing away at one’s peace of mind?
“Reb Yeruchom asked him, `How much was the dowry?’
“The bochur replied,
Five hundred dollars.' In those days, such a sum was equal in worth to fifty thousand dollars today. Three days later, Reb Yeruchom presented him with five hundred dollars. Then he added approximately the following,
Hachnosas kallah is certainly a very great mitzvoh. In general, to see that a Jew doesn’t go hungry is definitely a great mitzvoh. What concerned me though, was that you should sit and learn!’September 13, 2009 4:24 pm at 4:24 pm #659119mom12ParticipantI believe that one can do both if he is serious..
get up early for a shiur and then off to work..and if he is a serious learner that needs money to survive and pay bills..he will probably accomplish more than the full day kollel yingerman!
September 13, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #659120cherrybimParticipantI would have loved to have given my children an apartment or home when they married. Joseph, just as a true ben torah doesn’t put his in-laws in a position to give him expensive items and weddings, so too, a true ben torah should not expect/demand gifts of apartments or support in kollel.
If he is truly worthy, the true ben torah should do as most of the great rabbonim have always done, take a rabbinical/teaching position to support the family and continue learning.
September 13, 2009 11:40 pm at 11:40 pm #659121JosephParticipantIs the kasha on me, or on Reb Yeruchom?
September 13, 2009 11:51 pm at 11:51 pm #659122tzippiMemberJoseph asks who the kasha is on. Here’s a peshara: who knows what Rav Yerucham would have advised lechatchila for the couple, but since it was done, to spare the busha and for the sake of the couple who wanted to marry he saved the day?
September 14, 2009 1:33 am at 1:33 am #659123JosephParticipantHachnosas kallah is certainly a very great mitzvoh. In general, to see that a Jew doesn’t go hungry is definitely a great mitzvoh. What concerned me though, was that you should sit and learn!
said Reb Yeruchem (as he paid the $50,000 dowry.)
September 14, 2009 2:14 am at 2:14 am #659124ronrsrMemberActual figures from our wedding last weekend. We are both around 50, and put it on ourselves:
Mesader Kiddushin (an old friend who is a rabbi and was going to be a wedding guest, anyway) – $650
Catering (good food, dairy buffet, hors d’oeuvres and great desserts for 55 – NO WEDDING CAKE (that actually cost extra, since we needed more desserts) – about $4000 with gratuities, etc. — could have done it for less.
Open bar – $150 + 40 gratuity (not big drinkers, my family)
Chuppah – borrowed – $0
Chuppah decorations – from our garden and friends’ gardens – $0
Signage – made ourselves – $10.
Ceremony in public park – permit (not strictly necessary) = $25
Reception in beautiful, new VFW hall – $375
bartender – $75.
Klezmer band – $1000 for a quartet for 2.5 hours (could have spent less, but we liked these guys) + a single clarinetist to play music before and after the ceremony.
My suit – $99 at Marshalls + $35 tailoring. I can use it as a regular business suit.
Her dress – $49 at consignment shop. She dyed it, and will use it again.
Her veil – borrowed
Her shawl (this was expensive) – $69
Champagne – $120 + we will be receiving $36 rebate.
Ketubah – I typeset it myself, had it printed at a graphics art shop — $65. We will have it adorned at a later date by a friend who is a watercolor artist – price $150 (her usual price is $300, but half is a wedding gift).
Transportation – rented a large car for 3 days to shuttle people from airport to hotel to ceremony / reception. $170 – special weekend rates.
We bought other things, such as shoes, etc., that we have now for future use. Tried to buy things we could use in the future.
Photographer – $300 to fly a professional photographer, an college friend of the bride, in for the wedding. All the rest was her (the photographer’s) wedding gift.
Flowers: 3 pots of pampas grass for decor. Cost of flowers added to our tzedekah.
Mikveh – $3 for parking at local pond.
Did I forget anything?
We could have put on a wedding for 100 for very little more – an add’l $45/person for food. The band and hall wouldn’t have cost more, and could have supported 100 people.
Some of our relatives spent a fortune coming across the country to be here — but that doesn’t count towards the total.
We drove all the travelers to and from the train and airport, so we would at least have a dedicated 90 minutes to converse with them, regardless of what happened the rest of the weekend. Made them feel welcome, too.
It was well within our budget, and I am fortunate to come from three (mother’s, father’s and stepfather’s) so that the wedding gifts paid for at least 2/3’s of our costs.
Our guests are still telling us how lovely it was.
September 14, 2009 2:28 am at 2:28 am #659125JosephParticipantronrsr: Mazal Tov!! Asach nachas.
September 14, 2009 2:29 am at 2:29 am #659126ronrsrMemberforgot: Bouquet for bride, corsage for my mother – $75
Archival pen for ketubah signing- $5
September 14, 2009 12:20 pm at 12:20 pm #659127SJSinNYCMemberRonsr – mazal tov!
When I got married I really wanted to fly immediate family to Venice and have a small, intimate wedding there. It got shot down – mainly because my grandparents couldn’t come and I don’t think I could have gotten married without them there.
We did have a REALLY small legal ceremony in Vegas. The entire wedding (including marriage license) cost around $100. It was me, my husband, mother and stepfather. My mother hosted the reception at a local restaurant, which probably cost another $50 or so. Now THAT was a fun wedding 🙂
September 14, 2009 1:55 pm at 1:55 pm #659128Feif UnParticipantronrsr: a local pond is a big shailah to use as a mikvah. If the pond was man-made, it probably isn’t kosher. You might want to check it out.
September 15, 2009 4:19 am at 4:19 am #659130ronrsrMemberYou are right. We did check it out with a rabbi beforehand. We wanted the wedding to be inexpensive, but definitely kosher.
We are blessed to live in an area with lots of kettle-hole ponds which were formed when the glaciers receded 10-20,000 years ago, long before man was in the business of pond-making.
Our wedding ceremony was on a ridge above one of these ponds that we walk around frequently.
The pond that my bride-to-be went to also had ample, inexpensive parking, another big plus.
It was Walden Pond, where Henry David Thoreau spent his time philosophizing on self-reliance, survival, independence and the natural world.
We’ve had a lot of rain this summer, and the pond was filled beyond its usual banks. The usual “beaches” were closed, so she did have some trouble finding a spot where she could get in or out. She came close and found a spot where she could get in easily, but couldn’t get out, which made for some humorous photographs of her trying to climb up on the rocks, with the help of her friends.
September 15, 2009 4:42 am at 4:42 am #659131ronrsrMemberWhy are the recent Takanos by the Belzer Rebbe and others so narrowly drawn. They don’t seem to limit $ (or NIS) amounts, but rather limit choices.
I understand that musicians are particularly upset about takanos that limit the NUMBER of musicians at a wedding. Why not limit the dollar amount? If I wish to have a trio for two hours, rather than a single musican for six, what is the harm in that? The range in price of musicians also varies, we spoke to those who charged $80/hour up to $400/hour.
For our wedding, we chose to spend the bulk of our money on music and food, figuring that was the best investment in the joy of our guests. We spent almost nothing on gifts to each other, outside of simple 14k wedding bands, total cost about $270.
If you’re going to set up guidelines, why not peg them to family income — say, no more than 3 months income?
bests,
-rsr-
September 15, 2009 4:43 am at 4:43 am #659132ronrsrMemberWhy are the recent Takanos by the Belzer Rebbe and others so narrowly drawn. They don’t seem to limit $ (or NIS) amounts, but rather limit choices.
I understand that musicians are particularly upset about takanos that limit the NUMBER of musicians at a wedding. Why not limit the dollar amount? If I wish to have a trio for two hours, rather than a single musican for six, what is the harm in that? The range in price of musicians also varies, we spoke to those who charged $80/hour up to $400/hour.
For our wedding, we chose to spend the bulk of our money on music and food, figuring that was the best investment in the joy of our guests. We spent almost nothing on gifts to each other, outside of simple 14k wedding bands, total cost about $270.
If you’re going to set up guidelines, why not peg them to family income — say, no more than 3 months income?
bests,
-rsr-
September 15, 2009 1:18 pm at 1:18 pm #659133tzippiMemberCan’t wait to see takanos that address support.
September 16, 2009 10:12 am at 10:12 am #659134ronrsrMembersupport of what?
September 16, 2009 2:08 pm at 2:08 pm #659135tzippiMemberSupporting kids after marriage, x amount per month for y years.
September 16, 2009 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #659136JosephParticipantDowries are hardly a new issue, nor are they currently high, from a historical Jewish perspective.
September 16, 2009 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #659137gavra_at_workParticipantJoseph:
Agreed 100%!
The problem is everyone (girls that is) wants a talmid chacham as a son-in-law, instead of only marrying someone (or having the type of wedding, INCLUDING DRESS, SHAITEL, ETC.) who you can “afford”, and their totty can’t say no.
September 16, 2009 3:57 pm at 3:57 pm #659138cherrybimParticipantJoseph: Dowries, as in: putting together items to set up a new home, is not a new issue; Dowries, as in: supporting a new couple for a number of years instead of the husband working and supporting his family, is something relatively new.
September 16, 2009 4:19 pm at 4:19 pm #659139JosephParticipantgavra: Chazal advise father-in-laws and girls to seek a Talmid Chochom.
cherrybim:
Just 2 days ago (above) you wrote “I would have loved to have given my children an apartment or home when they married. Joseph, just as a true ben torah doesn’t put his in-laws in a position to give him expensive items and weddings, so too, a true ben torah should not expect/demand gifts of apartments or support in kollel.
If he is truly worthy, the true ben torah should do as most of the great rabbonim have always done, take a rabbinical/teaching position to support the family and continue learning.”
Now you write: “Dowries, as in: putting together items to set up a new home, is not a new issue”
So, apparently, you have come around full circle on this issue in just 2 days! Welcome to the club. 🙂
September 16, 2009 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #659140tzippiMemberRe dowries: often the kallah has a generous shower which alleviates the burden.
And remember the number of girls who DIDN’T get married in the heim for lack of a dowry.
After a few years used to be bnei Torah took on a position. Now they’re just coming back from E”Y and joining a mini kollel.
I have to wonder, if some of these boys would be plopped into a yeshiva 100 years or so ago (assuming they got in) would they have rated the five year plan that’s become de riguer? What would those roshei yeshiva have said?
September 16, 2009 4:35 pm at 4:35 pm #659141JosephParticipant“Re dowries: often the kallah has a generous shower which alleviates the burden.”
Sounds like a fancy name for “Hachnosos Kallah.”
September 16, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #659142cherrybimParticipantCome on, Joseph: “Dowries, as in: putting together items to set up a new home, is not a new issue”.
Putting together items to set up a new home: as in: Linens, showers, kitchenware, etc.
Which definitely is not, as in: Buying a new home.
You know what my in-laws gave me when I got married? My wife; that’s all I needed.
September 16, 2009 4:42 pm at 4:42 pm #659143gavra_at_workParticipantJoseph:
I know that (and have quoted it many times). It doesn’t hurt to try to find the few that are not interested in being supported 🙂
But seriously, how many of us (even now) could have supported a son-in-law like the TAZ (who insisted in the dowery that he be served meat every night, as that is what he needed to learn, and won a Din Torah when his shver (The Bach) wanted to serve him chicken (or lung) instead !!) (A rayah against CherryBim on both accounts)
tzippi: Not nogayah, as they would not have gotten in. The however many (don’t know exact number) that did get in (after knowing Nashim Nezikin Baal Peh) would rate, but almost all would go into rabbonus after a few years (as was the norm in Europe).
September 16, 2009 4:43 pm at 4:43 pm #659144squeakParticipantJoseph – are wedding gifts also hachnossas kallah?
September 16, 2009 4:46 pm at 4:46 pm #659145JosephParticipantsqueak – if it is coming from you. 🙂
cherrybim – You read above how Reb Yeruchem paid his talmid’s sister’s $50,000 cash dowry?
September 16, 2009 4:50 pm at 4:50 pm #659146squeakParticipantJoseph, I’m stumped. Is it worth an explanation?
September 16, 2009 4:51 pm at 4:51 pm #659147cherrybimParticipantGavra_at_work: If I had the Bach for a son-in-law, I’d work three jobs to provide him a house and serve him rib steaks and baby lamb chops every night. No Din Torah necessary.
September 16, 2009 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #659148JosephParticipantsqueak – I’d rather see you stumped.
If a wedding gift was given with the intention of repaying the chasana meal, then not. If it was given with the intent of helping the couple financially, then perhaps yes.
September 16, 2009 4:54 pm at 4:54 pm #659149squeakParticipantcherrybim – so the Torah learned today doesn’t rate by you?
September 16, 2009 4:55 pm at 4:55 pm #659150squeakParticipantNow where have I heard that before…..
September 16, 2009 4:57 pm at 4:57 pm #659151gavra_at_workParticipantcherrybim: Yup, but someone of that caliber is not happening these days. Also if you were the Bach you might want to learn yourself 🙂
September 16, 2009 4:59 pm at 4:59 pm #659152mepalMemberIf you’re willing to attach a zchus to giving a wedding gift, then I’ll take it! Why not?
September 16, 2009 5:28 pm at 5:28 pm #659153cherrybimParticipantHard to believe your story Joseph, where’d you read it, Artscroll?
And where could he get that kind of money to give away? He certainly didn’t take out of his savings account or sell some stocks. People were starving.
Unless, this one bochur who was a tremendous masmid and learned 24/7 was someone like a young Rav Shmuel Berenbaum, then it makes sense.
September 16, 2009 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #659154cherrybimParticipantgavra_at_work; Sorry, I got messed up with the names in your Bach/Taz story .
September 16, 2009 5:41 pm at 5:41 pm #659155JosephParticipantcherrybim – Are you saying Artscroll includes sheker in some of their seforim?
The story of Reb Yeruchem comes from the lamdan and masmid HaRav Aharon Kreiser ZT’L of the Mirrer minyan in Boro Park and Lakewood Yeshiva, and of course one of the prominent talmidim of the European yeshivas.
September 16, 2009 7:25 pm at 7:25 pm #659156enlightenedjewMemberRonrsr-
“We are blessed to live in an area with lots of kettle-hole ponds which were formed when the glaciers receded 10-20,000 years ago, long before man was in the business of pond-making.”
10-20,000 years? Uh-oh…
😉
September 16, 2009 7:27 pm at 7:27 pm #659157cherrybimParticipantArtscroll sheker? I never would have thought it Joseph; is that what you’re implying?
Joseph, did you hear the story directly from HaRav Aharon Kreiser ZT’L; or is it coming as a hand-me-down? Storytellers have a license to exaggerate for effect. The dowry could have grown in translation (the currency in Poland was zlotys, not dollars) and over the years; don’t forget, Yidden were very poor in Poland?
September 16, 2009 7:40 pm at 7:40 pm #659158JosephParticipantcherrybim, such implication would be libelous, so I wouldn’t implicate it.
The story of Reb Yeruchem I heard from Rav Dov Eliach, who heard it directly from HaRav Kreiser ZT’L in the botei medrash of the Lakewood Yeshiva, 17 years ago (where he lived and learned when he was older.)
September 16, 2009 7:41 pm at 7:41 pm #659159WolfishMusingsParticipant10-20,000 years? Uh-oh…
😉
Oh, please… let’s not start this here…
The Wolf
September 16, 2009 7:51 pm at 7:51 pm #659160enlightenedjewMemberToungue in cheek, Wolf, tongue in cheek.
September 16, 2009 8:22 pm at 8:22 pm #659161cherrybimParticipantJoseph, when Rav Dov Eliach heard the story of Reb Yeruchem from HaRav Kreiser ZT’L in the botei medrash of the Lakewood Yeshiva, 17 years ago; how much was the dowry up to? Was it $50,000 in today’s dollars or in 1992 dollars?
September 16, 2009 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #659162JosephParticipant1992 dollars.
September 16, 2009 8:31 pm at 8:31 pm #659163gavra_at_workParticipantFYI:
$500 in 1930 after inflation is $4214 in 1992 according to the CPI, so there is no reason why Rav Yeruchum could not have had this laying around and/or sell some of his possesions to obtain the cash. 500 dollars in 1920 or 1930 would get you (therebouts of) $6750 today if we are dealing with silver dollars.
September 16, 2009 8:33 pm at 8:33 pm #659164squeakParticipantej, if you were going to pick on something in that post to start a riot with, why not the photography he mentioned?
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