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I was browsing a frum judaica web site and found that they sell those Reform scarf “talisim”. I was wondering how are they able to sell these, they are not a kosher shir and alot of those reform people make bruchos on them causing them to make a brucha levatula. I sent them an Email asking them but have not heard a response.
I wouldn’t assume they say brachos. Farkert, I would say most don’t say brachos, don’t check their tzitzis strands, and probably wear them into the bathroom when going to temple. It’s probably better that they use something like that as to avoid all sorts of aveiras.
You are allowed to sell whatever you want as long as the item is not a copyright or breaks a Patent.
However they cant force you to buy it
and probably wear them into the bathroom when going to temple
This I know to be false.
Really, why the need for the gratuitous insult?
The Wolf
I was browsing a frum judaica web site and found that they sell those Reform scarf “talisim”. I was wondering how are they able to sell these, they are not a kosher shir and alot of those reform people make bruchos on them causing them to make a brucha levatula. I sent them an Email asking them but have not heard a response.
Yasher Koach! If you have not yet heard a response, perhaps they need a reminder? Perhaps they are busy with the Siyum HaShas & will take care of it tomorrow?
Keep us updated.
WolfishMusings – I wasn’t trying to insult anyone. I know that when reform people sometimes come to our shul on Yom Kippur, I’ve seen plenty that are ignorant enough to wear their “tallis” in the bathroom. And just in case you were referring to my use of the word “Temple” – that’s what the reform folks call their place of worship in our city. Maybe the reformed people in your town are frummer than the ones in mine.
Curiousity,
No, it wasn’t the use of the word “Temple.” I have no problem with that.
I guess the Reform Jews I know are “frummer” than the ones you know. Most Reform Jews that I know understand that a tallis is an object of holiness (even if it does not meet halachic standards) and understand that such an object does not belong in a bathroom.
The Wolf
I know the Judaica store in every place I’ve ever lived has sold items that aren’t quite kosher. Kiddush cups not a revis, washing cups with spouts, “tallises”, klapim from who knows where, it is on the buyer to know these things. If they say tihs is kosher litchatchila then there could be an issue.
As far as bashing reform Jews, they do a lot of stuff wrong. They don’t know better. I’m going to give our friend here the benefit of the doubt that he is BT, other wise why would he be in a reform shuls bathroom on YK? Because if he were to just be making up things thats just richilus.
I would not hesitate to say that it’s Muttar to wear a reform Tallis into a bathroom, even if it’s big enough.
Sam2 – Actually, now that I think of it, I would say even a small reformed Tallis might be assur to take into a bathroom. A tallis is not an object of kedusha like WolfishMusing says. It’s only assur to bring into the bathroom because it’s designated specifically for davening, and it’s disrespectful to wear an article that is meyuchad for davening into the bathroom. BTW, that’s why a tallis kattan is muttar to take into the bathroom. Thus, even if it’s not yotzei in terms of being a garment for the sake of tzitzis, it’s still nonetheless an article of clothing that’s meyuchad for davening. And even though their davening is totally messed up, and not what the Knesset Yisrael originally designed, they’re still davening in their own way to Hashem.
What do you think?
Curiosity: I thought precisely the same way you did, but their Davening doesn’t count as Davening. There is no Kedushah in the Tallis because there is no Kedushah in the “Davening” that it’s Meyuchad for.
They definitely say the Shma… Probably after saying a hatikva… But Krias Shma is deoraysah, and at the very least it’s a pasuk from the Torah, so there has to be some kedusha there. No?
I know that when reform people sometimes come to our shul on Yom Kippur, I’ve seen plenty that are ignorant enough to wear their “tallis” in the bathroom.
I’d imagine that the ones that show up on Yom Kippur in an Orthodox Shul are not the same ones that have an affiliation with and regularly attend the Reform Temple.
Curiosity: Maybe, but I don’t think that makes the Tallis a Begged Meyuchad for a Davar Shebikdusha. It’s Meyuchad for their whole services, which while they may contain some residual aspects of actual T’fillos, I don’t think they can count as a Davar Shebikdusha.
RebRy- see above: Curiosity, Dibur Hamaschil “Sam2 – Actually”
Sometimes non-Orthodox talisim have the bracha written on them — in that case, I wouldn’t bring them in the bathroom!
Dash, then why are they wearing scarf talleisim? Lol!
Sam2 – I doubt you would be allowed to say over their tfillah next to something unclean, like excrement and the like. It has Hashem’s name in it, various psukim, and they read the Torah (even if it’s done in a pasul manner). So they might not be yotzei the way that Chazal intended, but chazal say Hashem listens to all who pray to him.
you are insulting other jews, and right after tisha b’av….what about “sinat chinam” The Talmud (of which we had a wordlwide siyum yesterday) (Tractate Yoma) tells us that sinat chinam destroyed the second Bait Hamikdash….stop insulting them, perhaps you should befriend them and be mekarev….don’t push them and make them hate us “frumies”…I have friends who are reform that keep kosher and go to shiurim, and have higher morals than many of others that are machmir and “frum”….
A tallis is not an object of kedusha like WolfishMusing says.
Perhaps I was unclear. The point of my statement wasn’t whether or not a tallis is a holy object, but rather whether the average Reform Jew attending services at the Temple perceives it to be — and I believe they do based on personal experiences.
The Wolf
you are insulting other jews, and right after tisha b’av
You’re right. My apologies to everyone I’ve insulted with my remarks in this thread. I’ll try to avoid insulting people in the future.
The Wolf
Caracas Chick – what did we say that’s insulting? We’re discussing halacha.
Wolf, I was not including you in the ones dashing insults, my apologies to you.
Curiosity: “I wouldn’t assume they say brachos.”…why do you say that? do you know for a fact that they dont say brachos?
yytz: A lot of reform tallessim have the bracha too. At least the orthodox ones usually have the bracha without shemos.
Caracas Chick – umm….No. I do not “know for a fact.” That’s why I used the words, “I wouldn’t assume.”
My Rebbe once visited a wealthy member of a reform shul while fundraising for his Yeshiva, and the subject of tfillin came up. The man asked my Rebbe if he could teach him how to put on tfillin because he asked his rabbi, “but she didn’t know how.”
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