Regarding the Draft

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    SpiderJerusalem -“You want a shmad? Ask a Palestinian or any other hardline Muslim (if you have a heter to speak to a non-Haredi) if they’d still want to kill the Jews if we all converted to Islam, and you’ll have your answer. That’s a shmad.”

    Oh they Shmad Jews in Turkey? More Zionist propaganda. They Shmad more Jews in Israel then they ever did in Turkey. Moderate muslim countries actually respect Religion, like being Frum, not like the Zionists who have no respect for Frum Jews!


    Naftush -“Toi, Jewish life under Arab rule varied from violent abuse to institutional abuse with brief interludes of light, depending on the country and the century. Putrid mellahs, high percentages of blindness at early age, general illiteracy, routine denial of basic services, dhimmi taxes, religious maltreatment … that was the norm.”

    Thank you Joan Peters. But in Europe during this time it was much worse for Jews – ever hear of the crusades, progroms, etc.

    Jews were treated fine, in Palestine, during the Ottoman empire, whether you admit it or not.


    You are being simplistic. Calling something “propaganda” just because you don’t like it does not make it untrue.

    The Palestinian leadership IS evil and our deciding not to “start up with them”, whatever that means, has not, does not, and will not make a difference. Lots of Jews made aliyah to Palestine before it was Israel and this angered the Arabs. Even if you say we should not have a political state, are you really also saying we should give up our right to live in our own land?

    Furthermore, imagine the carnage, both political and physical, that would result if we tried to “give Israel to Turkey”. Utter nonsense.


    ROB -More Zionist hypocrisy. #1 There wouldn’t be any war if they just gave up the whole state. #2 You claim it’s a Mitzva to defend yourself, but then you state if going to conquer then it’s a Reshus. Let me enlighten you -the Zionists started this war, not the arabs. This isn’t even a Milchemes Reshus because G-d didn’t give anyone the right to conquer EY in our day and age. Get your facts straight, not just spout the Zionist propaganda!



    have you ever learned any history?

    If you want a more Jewish perspective read R’ Berel Wein. You would not be making comments like this if you had. There are other wonderful frum Jewish historians who can enlighten you – you seem to have fallen in to the trap of believing things because you want them to be true. You remind me of zacharnu es hadaga sheachalnu bimitzrayim. Your knowledge (or lack there of) of Turkish politics is similarly amusing. Also how is the fogel story (hy”d) zionist propoganda? They do have a different culture which places a very different valuation on human life. Learn a bit about the history of Islam and how it developed and you might be singing a very different tune.


    Hakatan, did zionism cause the Crusader destruction of German Jewry? The blood libels,pogroms,the Inquisition,the Chmielnecki massacres? Please don’t insult our intelligence by pretending Jews lived in peace before zionism.



    With all respect to Rav Kotler, how exactly did Rav Soloveichik “destroy an entire generation”? Rav Soloveichik built yeshiva university into a center of Torah learning, in which thousands of people have learned. His works Lonely Man of Faith and Halachic Man are two of the most important essays for modern orthodoxy, and orthodoxy as a whole. His Shiurim were attended by many people, from a variety Hashkafot. His talmidim played a major part in promoting orthodoxy in America. In any given Jewish community, you will probably find a Rav that learned in YU, under the Rav himself of one of his talmidim.


    jewishfeminist02, if you ask people who were there (i.e. their children, at this point, or else listen to the recordings), they say that the Arabs in Mandatory Palestine were decent and did NOT hate the Jews for coming to live there.

    The Arabs were, however, rightly worried about Zionism, which promoted their take-over of Palestine. The Mufti, no lover of Jews, had a cordial relationship with Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld. The former told that latter that they had no problem with Jews coming to live there; but if the Jews try to take over then they wouldn’t accept that.

    As also discussed numerous times on these boards, the Zionists think the Chevron Massacre is a raaya to their fallacies.

    In fact, Rabbi Baruch Kaplan, who was there, spoke publicly and was recorded saying that he used to take walks in Chevron late at night by himself with no fear of Arabs. It is the “Religious Zionists” including their leader who, against the express will of Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld, provoked the Arabs regarding the Kosel “Shema Yisrael HaKosel Kosleinu HaKosel Echad”.

    The (false) rumor spread among the Arabs that Al Aqsa was threatened and the Arabs responded, thinking the Chevron Yeshiva boys were Zionist, CH”V, because of their skin color, murdering these innocent boys. Rabbi Kaplan blames the Zionists for this.


    lesschumras, the Jews throughout the Middle East were far better off before Zionism, not only before May, 1948. Please don’t insult yourself. Ask the Yemenites and Jews from other Arab countries who the Zionists shmadded and worse. Ask the chareidim who lived in peace there before the Zionists. See my above post, for example.


    Matan1, it is not my place to back up Rav Aharon’s words.

    However, I question your statements about Rav Soloveichik. How are his works important to Orthodoxy as a whole? Outside MO, what Yeshiva even has those books in their libraries? Which Rabbeim outside YU recommend those to their talmidim?

    As to talmidim of Rav JB Soloveichik who are now Rabbanim, the following incident makes me question why one should believe this is (in some cases) a good thing. I actually recently heard a shiur from one of those students of Rav JB Soloveichik. In that shiur, he made a point of propagandizing various Zionist fantasies. He made the usual Zionist mistake regarding Rav Simcha of Dvinsk, etc.

    But beyond that, he made a point of saying “tell your kids in Yeshiva” that Israel is not a Maaseh Satan, etc.

    In my very humble opinion, this man has severely damaged the Judaism of the people he is addressing and, if they listen, these people’s children (potentially liDoros) as well, CH”V. He is purporting to teach Torah but is instead doing the opposite.

    To be clear, I have no problem with someone repeating over what his Rebbi held, or even his own Torah from other sources, and I also know Rav JB Soleveichik was sympathetic to Zionism in his time. But to propagandize Zionism in the guise of, lihavdil, Torah and, worse, to insist to baalei battim “tell your kids in Yeshiva”, is absolutely unacceptable.

    This talmid of Rav JB Soloveichik was telling them to tell their kids to ignore (or, perhaps, bypass) their own Rabbeim in favor of, at best, his own Rebbi. He surely knows of Rav Aharon’s and others’ opinion of his Rebbi’s views on Zionism (and secular studies) in particular. As well, most likely, the kids don’t know enough about the sugya to counter these serious errors.

    Very briefly, part of what the “Religious Zionists” missed (and what they still don’t get) is that, as the Brisker Rov did say (I recently saw this) the Balfour Declaration, while absolutely not a heter for Zionism, was indeed a “smile” from Heaven.

    But the Zionists ruined this eis ratzon with their State. Had everyone davened for the geulah, he said, the geulah would have come. Instead, they ruined it and davened for the State to come to life, and, like the eigel, it did; they got what they asked for and not the geulah. “Miharsayich uMacharivayich miMech Yetzeiu”, indeed; Galus would have been over instead of this eigel and all its karbanos, etc. and we are all still in galus, Hashem Yiracheim.


    lebidik yankel: shavua tov! I checked the Taz that you mentioned but, “bemechilas kevod toroscho” -iy is just the opposite that you said. THe Taz totally DISAGREES with the “Drisha” (on Tur) that espouses the line that you said. The “perisha” (same author) has a slightly different explanation of the gemoro “sof Taanis”. The Taz vehemently disgrees and says explicitly that nothing supersedes Pikuach nefesh.


    jewishfeminist02 -“You are being simplistic. Calling something “propaganda” just because you don’t like it does not make it untrue.”

    I’m calling it propaganda, not because I don’t like it, but because they are lies!

    “The Palestinian leadership IS evil and our deciding not to “start up with them”, whatever that means, has not, does not, and will not make a difference. Lots of Jews made aliyah to Palestine before it was Israel and this angered the Arabs. Even if you say we should not have a political state, are you really also saying we should give up our right to live in our own land?”

    You could live there under moderate Muslim rule. Also, when Jews made Aliya during the Ottoman empire this didn’t anger any arabs. By repeating the Zionist lies doesn’t make it any more true than the first time around.

    “Furthermore, imagine the carnage, both political and physical, that would result if we tried to “give Israel to Turkey”. Utter nonsense.”

    Because you and other Zionists decided this -doesn’t make it True! I know my posts undermine any legitimacy to the Zionist State and this is a hard truth to swallow, esp. when so many Jews like yourself, have swallowed the Zionist propaganda (Lies) your whole life.


    jbaldy22 -“@Health

    have you ever learned any history?

    If you want a more Jewish perspective read R’ Berel Wein. You would not be making comments like this if you had. There are other wonderful frum Jewish historians who can enlighten you – you seem to have fallen in to the trap of believing things because you want them to be true.”

    Actually, I don’t want to be enlightened like you. The reason so many American Jews are Zionists, because esp. in the MO schools, they pushed the Zionist propaganda.

    “Your knowledge (or lack there of) of Turkish politics is similarly amusing.”

    Your lack of Zionist history and their utter failure to Torah Jews is simply very sad!

    “Also how is the fogel story (hy”d) zionist propoganda? They do have a different culture which places a very different valuation on human life. Learn a bit about the history of Islam and how it developed and you might be singing a very different tune.”

    I actually know the history of Islam. And where did I mention anything about the Fogels? You are a classic Zionist – only pointing to the evils of the arabs. Did you ever think what caused this hatred to Jews? Inspite of the lies that they always were like this -they weren’t. The Zionists caused this hate by creating the State of Israel.


    Why did the Zionists create the State of Israel? Because they were kicked out of nearly every single other country in the world! Theodore Herzl was at the trial of Dreyfus where he saw the captain get humiliated in front of all of France. He realized that the Jews needed a safe place. Why are you so opposed to saving Jewish lives? That’s all Herzl wanted to do, based on his anti-semitic experiences in Europe.

    Regarding Jews in Arab lands, the Jews were expelled from Egypt in 1956. The citizenship of every Libyan Jew was revoked in 1961. The Jews of Iraq were expelled in 1951. Algerian Jews were forced out in 1962. Great friends those Arabs were, huh?


    rational- honestly, health and katan have been arguing that the state caused the current hatred to wards jews, and you go back them up by citing four arab nations that all kicked out their jews, and all of them conveniently after the states founding. you jsut roved their point. and honestly, herzl took the jew out of judaism.

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    RoB, the Ta’z says precisely what lebidik yankel said he does. I’m not sure which one you misunderstood.


    rationalfrummie -“He realized that the Jews needed a safe place.”

    Umm – Question of the day – So why didn’t they go to Uganda?

    Why pick on EY to promote their Kefira? And don’t tell me many Gedolim held Zionism was a Mitzva. I guarantee you Not one Godol held this brand of Zionism was anything but Kefira.


    Toi, honestly why would the Arabs kick out the Jews of their countries just because other Jews do something that makes them bad? That honestly doesn’t sound like intelligent, rational behavior does it? I forgot to mention that those countries had rulers that were pro-nazi. the grand mufti of jerushalayim yimach shmo was a big supporter of hitler yimach shmo. How can Health and Hakatan say that these reshaim protected yidden?


    Okay, so let me get this straight.

    Health, you believe that it is “propaganda” and “lies” to state that giving the state of Israel to Turkey would be physical and political suicide.

    I’ll break it down for you. Pretend you are a Palestinian Muslim for a minute (you seem to have no problem believing that they are all wonderful neshamas, so it shouldn’t be too hard). You are a Palestinian Muslim living in Israel, which you consider Palestine, and you’re ticked off that the Jews have control of a state. You and your brethren have been crying for statehood for a very long time.

    Now the Prime Minister announces that he’s ready to renounce the State of Israel and you’re thrilled! Finally, a state for you! But then he says that he’s giving the land to Turkey.

    Oh. Well, that isn’t what you wanted at all. You wanted a Palestinian state. You didn’t just want to go live in one of the Arab countries, and you didn’t want an Arab country to annex Palestine either. You wanted statehood and independence. You don’t expect Turkey to serve your needs– in fact, although you hate to admit it, you probably get better treatment under Israel than you would under Turkey.

    And who is responsible for this grave injustice? Who was in charge of deciding to give away YOUR land to a third party who is not even involved in the conflict?

    Why, the Jews, of course.

    Now what do you think is going to happen?


    DaasYochid; We must be learning different seforim. “lebidik yankel” writes: (I quote): “someone who stops learning because of pikuach nefesh that was not efshar laasos al jedei acherim is doing what the haloch requires. It would have been far better for him to have continued learning”.

    “memechilas kevod toroscho: the Taz does NOT say that. On the contrary, he writes (I quote) :” ein dovor ho-omed bifnei pikuach nefesh” He dismisses the derisha who says that talmud torah is before pikuach nefesh (!) and does not bring down the Perisha that does say what you said. From the mishmo-os of the taz is clear that pikuach nefesh is above all. HE DOES SAY that the “sechar” (reward) for talmud torah can be greater than pikuahc nefesh, quoting the gemoro end of Taanis.In actuality, however, you must save souls first.


    Health, I was not speaking of Eretz Israel as Joan Peters was. I was speaking of the misnamed Golden Age in Spain and the wretched conditions for Jews all across northern Africa and Arabia: periodic pogroms in Iraq and Algeria, on-and-off dhimmi repression in Morocco, hard-wired social abuse in Yemen, etc. There’s no need to set up a victimization contest between those countries and Europe. And Jews were not treated “fine” in EI under the Turks. One instance of such treatment in America and you’d race to the Gentile media and courts for redress.


    rationalfrummie -“the grand mufti of jerushalayim yimach shmo was a big supporter of hitler yimach shmo.”

    Ya’see the problem with the Zionists who post here and probably all Zionists is that you don’t even pay attention to what the other side is saying because you are so attached to the Zionist propaganda. All the points about Zionism has been brought up in the CR time & time again, but you Zionists keep arguing the same points over and over again. I previously posted historical facts about the Mufti – that his hatred to Jews started because he found out about the Zionist ambitions to take over Palestine.


    JF02 -“Now what do you think is going to happen?”

    Why don’t you read the post I just wrote to RF? Why do you expect me to answer the same arguments that I’ve answered time & again? Go read ALL my previous posts. I posted many times that you can’t give the land to the so-called “Palestinians”. I also posted there has to be guarantees Not just from Turkey, but also from other Countries and monitors that will provide for the Jews’ safety.


    Naftush -“There’s no need to set up a victimization contest between those countries and Europe.”

    It’s Not a contest -whether you admit it or Not, Jews were much worse in Xitian countries then they were in Muslim countries.

    Stop with the Zionist propaganda that all Muslims are bad. No Jews ever thought all Xitians are bad because most Jews from Europe ran to America before and after WWII.

    “And Jews were not treated “fine” in EI under the Turks.”

    More Zionist propaganda/lies. Do you have any proof to your statement? I had relatives living during that time and it was pretty good. Let me ask you something -how many Jews were killed in Palestine during the Ottoman empire? Now, how many Jews were killed in Israel because of Zionism imperialism?

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕

    RoB, I quote lebedik yankel (emphasis mine):

    “3. The Taz (if I recall correctly) writes that someone who stops learning because of a bona fide pikuach nefesh that was not efshar laasos al ydei acherim is doing what the halacha requires, yet is getting the raw deal: it would have been far better for him to have continued learning.”

    What did he say wrong?


    DaasYochid: you emphasized the first part of his quote. I emphasized the last part of his quote (it would have far better…) The Taz explicitly says that pikuach nefeh always has priority. To anser the Maharshal’s question from end of maschet taanit- the Taz is compelled to discuss the ‘sechar’-reward. But always you must save the person above all!


    rationalfrummie, you are parroting Zionist propaganda which, in this particular case, is an outright lie.

    Rav Chaim Brisker said that the goal of Zionism is shmad and they need a state for this end, not the other way around. In other words, the goal was and is shmad. The means to that goal is a state.

    His son, the Brisker Rov, Rav Yitzchak Zeev held the same way and liHavdil bein Chaim liChaim, Rav Meshulam Dovid Soloveichik shlit”A holds the same. So does Rav Moshe Sternbuch shlit”A.

    But you don’t have to believe these Torah giants because it’s anyways plain historical fact (and current events, for that matter, also indicate this quite clearly), that these Torah giants are 100% correct.

    Read “A Threat From Within” by Dr. Yakov M. Rabkin, Professor of History at University of Montreal.

    Read the Nazi-like (before the Nazis) libels that Zionists said about their own people. Like “A Jew’s life is a dog’s life”, etc.

    The Dreyfuss Affair was not at all the reason.


    The reason Zionism arose is that some assimilated Jews still didn’t feel like true goyim even after the persecutions stopped. So they decided that the only way the goyim would finally consider them as goyish as the goyim would be if the Jewish faith would be eliminated, CH”V, and, like Nationalist movements of the time, replaced with a new “Hebrew” goy. Literally. Not only would religious practice be eliminated, but the identity of a Jew would be based on his Nation and not on the religion. Then, they believed, the goyim would finally consider the Hebrew Goy just as goyish as any other goy and they would then be able to fully assimilate.

    Of course, that whole premise is jaw-droppingly terrible kefirah and at least as bad as Lavan haArami and the Greeks of Chanukah, for the simple reason that these were Jews suggesting this.

    The results of this very tragic and still on-going disastrous experiment of Zionism, Hashem yishmor, can be seen even today with the bizarre double standard applied to the State of Israel, which I assume is something that everyone here can agree with.

    The Nazis, YM”Sh, too, did not differentiate between Jews, regardless of assimilation level. This is, of course, no coincidence according to our gedolim, as this was Mida kiNeged Mida for believing in Zionism and assimilation.

    Presumably, the same holds true for the double standard that Israel is forced to contend with. It is the greatest slap in the face to the Zionists and an undeniable repudiation of their heresy and idolatry that the Nations do not accept Israel as a simple peer and one of them. In other words, Zionism is, spiritually, a complete and utter failure.


    Zionists audaciously propagandize that WW II proves that Jews need their State. In fact, it really proves just the opposite (besides for the Zionists’ various misdeeds during and after WW II which indicate the egregiousness and chutzpah of their terrible lies regarding WW II).

    Zionists wanted and continue to want to change our people’s very identity from a people of the Torah (even the Muslims refer to us as people of the Book, al-khitab) to, CH”V, one based on a Nation-State.

    WW II proved decisively that assimilation never works, even in the most enlightened of nations of the time, in Germany. Obviously, the churban there extended to Jews of all stripes, as noted. Also as noted, the double-standard applied to Israel seems to prove the same thing about assimilation.

    But it is Hashem that is our shield and protector; and the Torah of Yaakov, not the sword of Eisav, is our pride and joy and strength which has kept us throughout the generations and will always keep us, BE”H, ad beas goel tzedek BB”A.


    jewishfeminist02, Zionist propaganda holds that the Arabs in Israel know that they always considered themselves part of “Greater Syria”, not Palestine. They couldn’t care less what Western name is applied to the territory as long as it is Muslims ruling it.

    Put another way, in their view, any Muslim ruler is better than Israel ruling the land. So, as Health keeps saying, for the Arabs, Turkey would be a major step in the right direction, if not outright acceptable or even preferred.

    But it seems this particular point is becoming moot, as it seems negotiations are starting again and, if Gaza is any indication, they mean business.

    May Hashem always protect all His children.


    I feel for your safety should you actually decide to act on your stupidity. You are liable to find out just how friendly the Arabs are.


    If the Arabs were so kind to the Jews, why did they turn on them so suddenly following zionism? After all, shouldn’t their kind hearts have understood that not all Jews believe the same things? 856,000 Jews were expelled from Arab lands. Where is the outcry over their Nakba? You just don’t care.

    From 30 seconds online, I saw that Rabkin is praised by a whole host of anti-semitic French writers and that he is criticized by all real seekers of emes as being historically inaccurate.

    If you actually cared about real history, you would have read Der Judenstaat, Herzl’s manifesto where he talks specifically about how anti-semitism influenced him and NOT, as you claim hatred of Judaism.

    He writes: “We have sincerely tried everywhere to merge with the national communities in which we live, seeking only to preserve the faith of our fathers. It is not permitted us. In vain are we loyal patriots, sometimes superloyal; in vain do we make the same sacrifices of life and property as our fellow citizens.”


    I never read the obssesive rantings of “HaKatan” or “Health” but the mention by “rational fummie” of Yaakov Rabkin-cited prominently by HaKatan- made me look him up on wikipedia. I had never heard of him before. Well, to cite Rabkin in support of anti-Zionism is like citing Heinrich Himmler in support of “Mein Kampf”.

    Rabkin calls Israel ‘an apartheid state”. He is for the dismantling of Israel and the founding of a “bi-national state” (let’s see how long such a state would have jews in it…) and- this will warm HaKatan’s heart-he says that Judaism and Zionism cannot co-exist.

    Yup, a very respected voice……..


    rf- point is herzls vision of the future jewish people, by extension the vision he tried to propagate, and by extension the vision of a zionist state had nothing to do with yiddishkeit. no one is saying we dont love EY, we just cant understand why loyalty to a rasha and his Godless dogama mst be assumed in order to be allowed to love the land given to us by He whom herzl would soon happily forget.


    Regarding Rabkin:

    His research and book got very favorable reviews worldwide.

    Of all the above “criticisms” I have seen of Rabkin, I still haven’t seen any Zionists contend with his research and what he wrote. Posters here launching ad hominem attacks, comparing a frum Jew (Rabkin) to Nazis, is despicable and yet par for the course for Zionists (ROB).

    Let’s see any of you disprove his research before you launch childish attacks at him and have to ask his mechila.

    Zionists have no answers.



    I don’t understand your question about why the Arabs turned so fast against the Jews.

    Rabbi Baruch Kaplan testified regarding the Chevron Massacre that the Arabs behaved decently towards Jews in Mandatory Palestine and only as Zionism increasingly reared its traitorous head did the Arabs turn increasingly more violently against the Jews.

    Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld related that the mufti, no lover of Jews, said that they had no problem with the Jews coming to live in Palestine but that they would not accept Jewish rule.

    I posted earlier that the Arabs believed the false rumor that Al Aqsa was threatened because religious Zionists were trumpeting (with a shofar) and declaring shema Yisrael haKosel Kosleinu haKosel echad.

    Zionists are so obsessed with their idol that they can’t even stop for one second to think about what would have been had Zionism never entered the world stage and the yishuvim continued as they were, with Jews gradually moving to Eretz Yisrael as they already were, buying land and minding their own business and living in harmony with the Arabs there and those that moved there afterwards.

    Prominent Zionists, religious included, admit that Zionism and the State of Israel has created this Arab hatred, as has been posted many times.

    Fellow Jews, “hasiru es elohei haNeichar asher biSochichem”; please see the truth of the Torah which hasn’t changed and never will. We are a people of the Torah, not “Nationalists”. Let us not condone the wickedness and shmad done and still being done to our people and to E”Y with all its kedusha and which we yearn for Moshiach to come and rebuild the Beis haMikdash BB”A.


    Actually, Zionists do have answers. We just don’t scream “shmad” like you do and act like vilde chayas, so people ignore us :(. Here is a direct quote from wikipedia about Rabkin: “Rabkin can’t resist from widely citing people who name-call and painting all Zionists as evil… This style of writing diminishes the credibility of his argument.” Does that sound like a good, unbiased historian to you? Me neither.

    Regarding the Chevron Massacres, how you can even begin to legitimize a cold-blooded massacre that killed 67 yidden is beyond me. That is evil at its core, and yet you still ignore it.

    Also, your idyllic picture of yishuvim and peaceful settlements were all started by zionists!! Before Zionists started yishuvim as part of the Bilu movement, Israel was a sparsely populated dump. The Zionists, with their farming communities in places like Rishon l’Tzion paid for by people like the Rothschilds literally drained the swamps and made the desert bloom, per all the nevuahs that said this would happen.

    I also yearn for mashiach to come and the beis hamikdash to be built. I just see an autonomous Jewish gov with frum Jews, control of yerushalayim/kotel, and the fact that Israel survives despite 300 million Arabs that want it destroyed as signs that the geulah is coming and Zionism is a big part of it.


    HAKatan: my reference to Heinlich Himmler and “Mein Kampf” is rather tame to the names that you and your ilk call tens of thousands of jews.


    Regarding the Chevron massacre, I don’t know why you thought I legitimized it. Of course the savages had no right to murder any Jews. But these are Pereh Adam and I previously quoted Rabbi Baruch Kaplan who laid the blame for that massacre on the Zionists, including “religious Zionists” for their foolish provocations of these beasts.

    We discussed the nevuah before; the land being again fruitful due to Jewish work has nothing to do with Zionism which is just as treif as it always was.

    There was an article recently about those farmers paid by Rothschild. They were frum people who came to work the land with no political motives like Zionism. Their overseers, incidentally, tried to starve them rather than allow them to keep shemita, and lied about them to Rothschild.

    Again, Zionism and political rulership have nothing to do with any of that. The Brisker Rov came to Mandatory Palestine for his own valid reasons despite Zionism, as did many others. Nobody said there is anything wrong with that.

    With all due respect, there are (at least) two problems with your “frum” “rationalism” regarding Zionism and Israel:

    a) it is not rational

    b) it is not frum (i.e. against the Torah)

    Zionism is severely forbidden by the Torah due to the oaths and its shmad, for starters. You choose to ignore this, likely because:

    a) Having a Jewish government gives you (100% goyish) pride (despite that we are still in galus and expressly forbidden from having any rulership in E”Y)

    b) You also think it’s better to have “control” of the Kosel even though that control is forbidden (see above point) and came at a cost of even more lives, Hashem yiracheim.

    c) You refuse to consider the possibility that “Israel survives” because there are so many Jews there and it might take a greater neis to save those Jews if Israel were to not survive; so, therefore, Israel’s survival does not indicate anything about Zionism.

    Again, not very rational and certainly not frum.

    And, again, Zionists have no answers.


    “there has to be guarantees Not just from Turkey, but also from other Countries and monitors that will provide for the Jews’ safety.”

    Not gonna happen. You’re living in a dream world. And even if we were to obtain these “guarantees”– you trust those who hate us to follow through on their word and protect us??


    Hakatan: How can you blame a massacre on those that were massacred? Would you blame America for 9/11? Would you blame the Jews and Muslims for the Crusades? NO!!

    With all due respect you’re a kanoi and a daas yachid whose voice is lost over the sound of millions of yidden davening to Hashem at the kosel, and returning to frumkeit because of eretz yisrael,Jewish pride, and the easiness of being Jewish in Israel. In Israel, we no longer suffer at the hands of the goyim. Isn’t that a good thing? Do you really want to prolong the tzarus of the hidden?

    Has it ever entered your mind that our control of the Kosel is because of hashem’s help? Why can’t you open your eyes and see that He was behind the nissim of the 6 day war. Thousands of secular Jews became frum after that war—- why can’t you it if those tinokei shenishbah did?? Ignoring Hashgochah Pratis is not very frum (kefirah) and not very rational either.



    I cannot answer to that which I have never claimed. Please read my post before claiming I said something that I did not.

    The massacred Chevron students HY”D were not Zionists and also, of course, not responsible for their own murders by those savages. I quoted Rabbi Kaplan who said the “Religious Zionists” provoked the Arabs and, in response to a rumor that came up, seemingly as a result of that provocation, the savages murdered these innocent Chevron Yeshiva boys who were anyways not Zionists.

    I am not a “kanoi”; what I bring down from gedolim is mainstream halacha.

    Your sevaras, on the other hand, are simply your own emotional sevaras and, as stated, these are neither rational nor frum. As a bonus, you seem to have not read my post.

    To answer your rhetorical questions:

    A) Of course it was Hashem who allowed the Zionists control over the Kosel.

    B) The CIA disagrees with your assessment (i.e. unwitting Zionist propaganda) of the 6 day war. The CIA indicates on their web site (check it out) that they knew and told the Israelis they could fight a multi-pronged war against the Arabs and win.

    C) Did you really write “In Israel, we no longer suffer at the hands of the goyim”? And the Arab-Israeli conflict, with all its precious Jewish blood spilled is not suffering at the hands of the goyim?

    D) Hashem forbade this State. Period. It’s a chesed from Him that some good things have happened there in the midst of the enormous shmad there. But Zionism is treif. Period.

    The Yetzer HaRa of Zionism is simply stunning in what it can convince someone who claims to be both “frum” and “rational”.

    Please, please learn the sources and leave this idol.

    The Zionists have no answers.


    HaKatan,you wanted some Zionist answers, so here are a few circumstantial ones (which are *not* false ones): a Jewish nation-state crystallizing while the rest of Jewry faced annihilation (Holocaust) and deadly assimilation (America). Whacking combined Arab forces repeatedly. Being known by the CIA as *capable* of whacking combined Arab forces repeatedly. Having more shuls and shul-goers in its *least* religious towns than in nearly all communities in galus.

    Now, what are your arguments? You say Jews have paid the ultimate price for this statehood. Right, statehood comes at this price, and until now countless Jews paid it for others’ statehood. Shmad? The poskim couldn’t agree about whether the Holocaust was shmad, so kal-va-homer Israel, where nearly every secular family has a hozer bi-tshuva and the most estranged Jew can open a sefer Torah and understand what it says. The rest of your arguments don’t even argue. “Rabbi Kaplan said,” “the Brisker Rov said,” and so on aren’t arguments; they relieve you of the need to make arguments (not). And “Hashem forbids it, period” is hutzpa from someone who screen-names himself HaKatan.


    There’s no heter to cause Jews to die for Statehood.



    I don’t understand; your “answers” are actually unanswerable questions on Zionism, not answers.

    Your “Jewish” Nation-State is forbidden from the Torah, and also features the “best” of both of those nations you mentioned, America and Germany. Israel is active shmad. Unlike America which respects religion, Israel/Zionism abhors specifically the Jewish faith and its very identity and purpose is to change Jews to goyish “Hebrews”/”Israelis”. And Israel also has the unique distinction of its citizens never having known a day of peace in its very bloody existence.

    As to the Holocaust, I have mentioned often that Zionists are better off avoiding that particular topic since, among many other thing, the Zionists’ “State above all else (including Jewish lives)” priority, particularly during that terrible time, is appalling and quite anti-Torah, to say the least.

    It would be wise to study the history first rather than rely on Zionist lies. While you’re at it, you could read what Torah greats like Rav Weissmandl, Rav Gifter, Rav Hutner et al. had to say about the Holocaust and Zionism.



    You also, of course, have never considered why there is such a great need for “chozrei biTeshuva” in Israel that you trumpet how every family has at least one. Each returnee is wonderful news, but you list this as an asset to Zionism? Indeed, what a churban the Zionists have wrought!

    I humbly disagree about your contention that it is inappropriate to say “Hashem forbids it. Period.” This is not my own opinion; far be it from me to have an opinion on this, as you alluded to. Rather, it is mainstream halachic fact from many Rabbis who have written this, some of whom I have previously quoted.

    For example, relatively recently, Rabbi Reisman discussed, as seen in the Flatbush Jewish Journal, available free online, how the three oaths remain in effect according to everyone even after 1948 through today; the only difference among gedolim (i.e. what Satmar disagrees with) is regarding “working from within” the State once it has been established. But, according to all of them, whether Satmar or otherwise, the State is forbidden. Period. If you are better-informed than Rabbi Reisman, please enlighten everyone.

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