June 19, 2017 10:30 pm at 10:30 pm #1299629
Is this really the way to get things done in 2017? Getting Rabbis and the government together and trying to enforce proper religious behavior? Shouldn’t we be doing kiruv with cholent & guitars?June 19, 2017 11:20 pm at 11:20 pm #1299705June 20, 2017 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1299742
This is religious coercion? What about the fact that there is no civil divorce in Israel (BTW, I am in favor)? What about Shabbat closing laws (I am also in favor)? What about the Kotel controversy (I am against letting the Reformers have a place). All governments work by coercion to enforce what is considered proper behavior in that society. This the not only the prerogative of a bet din kavua but also of the secular authorities (Avnei Nezer YD 312:50 – http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=1345&st=&pgnum=337&hilite=).June 20, 2017 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1299872
Avi K, I happen to agree with you. My post was directed at those who do not support outlawing certain activities on Shabbos, or the Rabbinate controlling marriage. This is not an uncommon position – many will tell you that we should not force anybody to what is right, just show them unconditional love and hope that that will sway them.
Do those who believe the aforesaid support attempts to force recalcitrant husbands to give a get? If so, what’s the difference?June 20, 2017 10:24 am at 10:24 am #1299949akupermaParticipant
No man is required to give a “get” (or get divorced) UNLESS he previously entered into a marriage contract. No one is coerced into marriage. The only difference in that under Israeli law a husband has to do something to get divorced, whereas in most countries the husband can be divorced in absentia. In America, if someone is summoned by a court and ordered to do something, they are locked up with no appeal until they do what they have been ordered to – they lose almost all right to appeal since “they hold the key to their own release” – by obeying the court order.
If the reason for laws closing businesses on Shabbos is to honor Shabbos and promote menucha, they are “religious coercion”. If they are to prevent discimination against workers who don’t want to work on Shabbos, and to offer a level playing field for frum business owners, they are necessary for inclusion of frum Jews within the zionist state.
If you hold Israel is a secular state with many Jews, then the kosel is no more than an archeological site, importantly only as the past and future site of the Beis Mikdash (though secular reject the “future” part). If you think there is anying Jewish about the medinah, then it would be reasonable that the kosel is treated with kedushah – however most Israeli reject the idea that the medinah is Jewish.June 20, 2017 11:07 am at 11:07 am #1300048
MW13, I am not a spokesman for anyone but myself. Moreover, of those groups you mentioned none believes that we should not force anybody to what is right except the libertarians, who are now mostly organized (they are not fully libertarian as they have some nationalistic planks) as the Zehut party under Moshe Feiglin. The rest do believe in forcing people to do what is right – in their opinion. It just so happens that this is a point of intersection.June 21, 2017 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #1302100☢️ Rand0m3x 🎲Participant
What about the fact that there is no civil divorce in Israel?
I never thought of that, despite knowing that Israel has no civil marriage laws.
So do people go to other countries to get divorced as well?June 21, 2017 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #1302106
If there was civil Marriage, you could have civil Divorce and could actually according to many eliminate the Get problemJune 21, 2017 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #1302114JosephParticipant
Muslims and Christians get married and divorced in Israel.June 21, 2017 10:45 pm at 10:45 pm #1302127
Muslims and christians get married religiously in Israel too. There is no civil marriage fro them eitherJune 21, 2017 11:32 pm at 11:32 pm #1302130LightbriteParticipant
Indeed some individuals are coerced into marriage.June 22, 2017 1:27 am at 1:27 am #1302183
R4, I do not know that people go to other countries just to get divorced. Of course, if an Israeli couple lives abroad they can divorce according the laws of the country. For this reason, some rabbis reportedly look for witnesses who are not halachically qualified when marrying non-observant couples.
ZD, the problem is if they have a halachic to please their parents and then a civil divorce. BTW, there is civil divorce in Israel for couples from different religious communities or other couples who married abroad but whose marriages are not recognized by any religious community (e.g. toeva couples).June 22, 2017 8:51 am at 8:51 am #1302212
Many of the Marriages in Israel performed abroad are not “Alternative Lifestyles” but rather “Intermarriages” but more like cases where one of the participants is Zera Yisroel and therefore not a halachic jew (Russians)
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