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When is the proper time to start discussing religious outlooks on dates? My friend says to bring it up right away to make sure you are exactly on the same page.
Before you meet. Religious outlook should be one criteria before attempting a shiduch. Among the goyim, with their “meat market” or “bar hopping” system, they spend the first few dates finding out such things (religous compatability, anticipated lifestyle, etc.)- in theory we get to “start” at a point equivlaent to which our non-frum cousins reach after perhaps a few months – of having decided the person is in theory “right” – and get on to the “but do we like each other part”.
BEFORE the first date, would be a good idea IMO.
its shidduch dating, it is an interrogation
Basic religious compatibility will often be known before the first date but during the dating you have to get a more specific idea of whether you really are religiously compatible.
These kinds of things can come out naturally during discussions on the first date. On the 2nd and 3rd dates you might want to go into more of an “interrogation mode” but if it can be brought up naturally that might be less awkward. Obviously you both know that this is a shidduch date so it’s not such a big deal by the 2nd or 3rd date to be discussing it outwardly.
In terms of the discussion, it should be exactly that – a discussion and not a yes/no interrogation. Often people will have a question like “do you watch movies” and will immediately passul based on the yes/no answer. If you would discuss why, when, what etc you can get a better idea of what the person really holds and how willing they are to compromise after marriage. If you are already on a 3rd date and like the person, it is worth your time to put the effort into those discussions before breaking up. I’m not saying you should compromise your own religious level but rather that the answer that the other person gave might not be what it seems.
Once upon a time, the question was:- Are you Shomer[es] Shabbos? & Do you consume Kosher?
Nowadays, these 2 questions have been replaced by:- Are you Shomer[es] Yom ha’Atzma’ut & Yom Yerusholayim? & Do you consume Cholov Akum [or to disguise the question:- Do you consume Entenmann’s, even though Entenmann’s cake utilize powdered milk & not actual milk, and since powdered milk can only be made from cow’s milk, there really is no need for Gezeiro on powdered milk].
Once upon a time, the question was:- Are you Shomer[es] Shabbos? & Do you consume Kosher
No, it was always like this.
My grandmother grew up in Philadelphia in the 1920’s, and has told me some of her dating stories. Once, she went out with a fine young man (whose son is now a prominent rosh yeshiva). This young man decided to tell her a funny story:
Once, he was playing outside, and it was almost nightfall. So he told the other boys that it was time to daven mincha. They responded “mincha? we haven’t davened mincha since Jesus was a baby”
So she dropped him, because she didn’t like that he would talk like that, even just to say over the story.
And of course it should be like this. You need to marry someone with whom you are on the same page religiously.
By date three, you should have a basic idea of the other person’s general hashkafa. You bring up topics of current interest, (i.e., to see if he/she watches TV, ask if they saw the Republican debates, who their favorite newscaster is, etc.). If they answer they don’t own a TV or they get their news from the radio or newspaper, that should give you some idea. Truthfully, if you are not comfortable bringing these issues up at this point, you have to ask yourself if this is going anywhere. Just have a normal conversation. And LISTEN.
I think that labels muddle the discussion. In my experience, MO Liberal, MO Machmir, Modern Yeshivish, etc. cause confusion. I would say that specific issues need to be addressed. For instance, I am Tzioni, but don’t say Hallel on Yom haAtzmaut or Yom Yerushalayim with a bracha. I wash mayim achronim, don’t clap on Shabbos, tuck my tzitzit in, wear a black suede yarmulke, but don’t use contemporary eruvei chatzeirot, yet hold by Triangle K and Ner Tamid K. I don’t watch much TV, but have an interest in academic Jewish studies. My point is that it is easy to label, but I would suggest finding out where each person holds individually. We would find more that unites than divides.
Why do you worry so much about where you’re holding now? See if you both want the same future. Don’t get caught up in these extraneous details like hallel yom haatzmaut and the like. You won’t find someone holding in the exact same place as you. All you need to look for is that you can handle (preferably respect) their present level of observance and that you both are moving in the same general direction. You should know this by the end of the second date.
Interjection, “details like hallel yom haatzmaut and the like” aren’t extraneous. They determine where we are on hashkafa, which in turn has much to do with where we are on halacha.
Loyal Jew: What, you’re supposed to be religiously compatible with your dishwasher? That’s very fascinating…
OneOfMany, the dictionary you’re using is even more fascinating. How did it take you from hashkafa to dishwasher?
Oh wait, I meant washing machine.
Loyal Jew: I think that comment said something perfectly good and clear. Why do individual Halachic details determine where someone is on “Hashkafa” (whatever that means)? Why can’t someone be completely “Chareidi” yet say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzma’ut?
Ah, yes. You forgot to give the historical background: a few months ago I said that some people do more research before choosing a washing machine than before choosing a spouse. The example of saying Hallel on their holidays r”l is a case in point. Does anyone here think a shidduch should be redt before looking into something like that?
Loyal Jew: I think so. Who cares about that? It’s a Halachic detail. Do you make sure that both sides have identical P’sakim and Minhagim before setting up a couple? Why is this one Halachic issue any different?
Sam2, saying Hallel on their holidays isn’t a halachic detail, it’s a statement of hashkafa. Packaged with that hashkafa, according to most who hold by it, is treatment of other “details” like shmitta, eruvin, kashrus, tznius, etc., that is meikel and against Daas Torah of the Gedolim. Even there, I only said that the matter should be looked into before the shidduch.
Loyal Jew: You say that’s the case, and maybe it’s the case for some people, but I don’t know if it’s true for everyone. It certainly shouldn’t be true. What if I really wanted to make a different “Hashkafic statement” (whatever that means) but after learning the relevant sources feel there is no way not to say Hallel on Yom Ha’atzma’ut? Lu Yetzuyar such a person existed, what would you tell him?
(I’m ignoring the other insinuations of your post because they’re just silly and pointless, but at this point expected.)
No, you said people should research the payment plan on their spouse, because even though it might sound fanatic, that’s what we do for our washing machines…here, I’ll pull up your post for you:
I was just wondering, why do you have to be religiously compatible with your washing machine? I mean, as long as you have a nice fancy dira to put it in…
OneOfMany: Nice!
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