Religious zionists

Maybe we should go back to talking about Chabad.

Read Aviezer Ravitzky’s Messianism, Zionism And Jewish Religious Radicalism, and you’ll fill yourself in on all the details.

There are different subgroups of religious Zionism. The Mercaz HaRav wing sees it as the beginning of the Geula. Whether or not it is considered a stepping stone depends on how one defines a state. France is now on its fifth republic and has had kings and emperors. Does that mean that it is a different state? At present Israel does not have a constitution but a series of “basic laws” that form a quasi-constitutional framework. It could be that a republican Torah constitution will be enacted at some later stage and that at an even more later stage a monarchy will be established. Interestingly, the Zohar states that each 1,000 years of Creation parallel the first six days. That means that 5708 was the last time for burning chametz on erev Shabbat. There is no greater chametz than the Galut. I highly recommend the book Torat Eretz Yisrael (in English) by Rav David Samson and Tzvi Fishman for further elucidation.

I can’t believe we went straight from Chabad to this. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Why is Chabad ‘out of the picture’? You found that many of them promote or harbor a mistaken, non-important sentiment. They still hope for Moahiach to come and don’t claim that he already arrived. Nor are they making unholy things holy.

This question might be more important. I don’t Chaim to know the answer.

One piece of advice I’d give to proponents of any divisive ideology: keep in mind the outside perspective before you begin. We’ve all seen in the other recent threads how foolish it comes across when you announce to others ideas that are based on insider logic.

Aggada, Remazim, and Svaros are only useful for those who already signed up. If someone asks you what you believe answer dryly. If you are asked for the basis of your belief don’t pile on all the Remazim and pointers. Just lay out the roots, even if it doesn’t reflect your personal excitement.

Most religious zionists say that this is the beginning of the flowering of the geulah. That is to say, we are living in the days shortly before moshiach. Most gedoylim have already said this. VaYoel Moshe is widely learned here as well. Not lehachis, simply as a sefer. To quote one prominent Chardalli Rav, ‘we have a lot in common. 613 things. We even agree that the return of Jews to our land is a religiously significant event’ I heard this first hand.

Simcha and others,
I am surprised no one quoted one the greatest poskim in Poland in the mid 19th century, Rav Yehosua Trunk of Kutna ZTL in his responsum

בשו”ת “ישועות מלכו”, חלק יו”ד, סימן ס”ו:
He writes the following:

העלייה לארץ ישראל מצווה גדולה היא. אמנם, גם לדברי הרמב”ן שמנה את ירושת ארץ ישראל למצוות עשה בפני עצמה, מכל מקום “עיקר המצווה אינו אלא הירושה והישיבה כאדם העושה בתוך שלו, לכבוש ארץ ישראל שתהיה תחת ירושתנו”, ואם כן עלייתם והתיישבותם של יחידים, כשאין יד ישראל תקיפה בארץ ישראל, אינה עיקר המצווה.

אך כבר המשילו עניין זה למצוות עשה של אכילת מצה, כי עיקר המצווה היא האכילה, ולקיחת החיטים לשם מצווה והלישה והאפייה אינם גמר מצווה, ומכל מקום בוודאי מצווה גדולה היא. ועל זה נאמר “גומל לאיש חסד כמפעלו”, גם על הפעולה של מצווה מקבל שכר. ונאמר “אשרי תמימי דרך”, גם על הדרך של עושי מצווה יש בו שלמות.

אין ספק שהיא מצווה גדולה – כי הקיבוץ הוא אתחלתא דגאולה ונאמר “עוד אקבץ עליו לנקבציו”, ועיין ביבמות דף ס”ד שאין השכינה שורה פחות משתי רבבות מישראל, ובפרט עתה שראינו התשוקה הגדולה, הן באנשים פחותי ערך, הן בבינוניים, הן בישרים בלבותם, קרוב לודאי שנתנוצץ רוח הגאולה. אשרי חלקו שהוא ממזכה רבים.

Hence, he clearly upheld that the very motion of Kibutz was/is the beginning part of the geulah.

Note, this is not necessarily a support of the Zionist movement in itself, but it sure is support of the very concept.