Religious zionists

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  • This topic has 17 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 4 years ago by GAON.
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  • #1416696
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    Is anyone here an expert on religious zionism? Do they actually believe that the geulah started in 1948, or they merely see the state of Israel as a stepping stone for moshiach. Do they see the state as an easier way to bring moshiach or is it a prerequisite? Is it borderline kfirah?

    #1416730

    Maybe we should go back to talking about Chabad.

    #1417118
    Joseph
    Participant

    Rav Elchonon Wasserman said that Zionism is Avoda Zara while โ€œReligious Zionismโ€ is simply religion mixed into Avoda Zara.

    #1417122
    Spreadthetruth
    Participant

    Read Aviezer Ravitzky’s Messianism, Zionism And Jewish Religious Radicalism, and you’ll fill yourself in on all the details.

    #1417145
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    What do religious zionists believe?

    #1417153
    Avi K
    Participant

    There are different subgroups of religious Zionism. The Mercaz HaRav wing sees it as the beginning of the Geula. Whether or not it is considered a stepping stone depends on how one defines a state. France is now on its fifth republic and has had kings and emperors. Does that mean that it is a different state? At present Israel does not have a constitution but a series of “basic laws” that form a quasi-constitutional framework. It could be that a republican Torah constitution will be enacted at some later stage and that at an even more later stage a monarchy will be established. Interestingly, the Zohar states that each 1,000 years of Creation parallel the first six days. That means that 5708 was the last time for burning chametz on erev Shabbat. There is no greater chametz than the Galut. I highly recommend the book Torat Eretz Yisrael (in English) by Rav David Samson and Tzvi Fishman for further elucidation.

    #1417180
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    “the Zohar states that each 1,000 years of Creation parallel the first six days. That means that 5708 was the last time for burning chametz on erev Shabbat. ”

    Anyone else having trouble seeing how he got from point A to point B here?

    #1417181
    Neville ChaimBerlin
    Participant

    I can’t believe we went straight from Chabad to this. Out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    #1417192
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    1948=5708. I assume he’s saying that pesach fell out on shabbos that year, and according to the Zohar 5708 is erev shabbos and right before moshiach.

    #1417196
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    There is no reason to get back to the chabad issue. I think we can all agree by now that chabad is out of the picture. I’m merely questioning if we should officially cut off another group of Jews. It’s not such a big deal.

    #1417195
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    And that year they got rid of chametz on erev shabos, kabbilisticaly symbolic of getting rid of galus and ushering in yom shekulo shabbos.

    #1417258
    Put down the gun
    Participant

    The posts are out of order.

    #1417294
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    So when is Sof Zman Achila? And which part of the Galus Sof Zman Krias Shma/Tfila?

    Hey, is that why there are so many late Minyanim these days โ€” since we are anyhow after the Zman Tfila?

    Anyhow, now we know what the Rishonim were doing in the ‘dark age’. It’s obvious. It was the Zman for Bedikas Chametz. So this is why the Yeshivos in Bavel were declining. You aren’t allowed to learn before the Bedika.

    #1417301
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Why is Chabad ‘out of the picture’? You found that many of them promote or harbor a mistaken, non-important sentiment. They still hope for Moahiach to come and don’t claim that he already arrived. Nor are they making unholy things holy.

    This question might be more important. I don’t Chaim to know the answer.

    One piece of advice I’d give to proponents of any divisive ideology: keep in mind the outside perspective before you begin. We’ve all seen in the other recent threads how foolish it comes across when you announce to others ideas that are based on insider logic.

    Aggada, Remazim, and Svaros are only useful for those who already signed up. If someone asks you what you believe answer dryly. If you are asked for the basis of your belief don’t pile on all the Remazim and pointers. Just lay out the roots, even if it doesn’t reflect your personal excitement.

    #1417340
    Avi K
    Participant

    Spread, Ravitzky is a member of the leftist “Neemnei Torah v’Avoda” group that comes very close to being Conservative. Take a look at their website. However, that just proves my statement that the RZ movement is not monolithic.

    HaLeiVi.
    1.Here is the rundown (some are approximate):
    Shekiya: Ramban makes aliya and renews Jewish sttlement
    Netz : The Gra begins to learn Kabbala and advocate settling the Land
    Sof zeman KS: Rav Kook is born
    Sof zeman tefilla: Rav Kook makes aliya and begins to write on the Geula
    Sof zeman b”c The State is established, Rav Tzvi Yehuda begins to teach
    Chatzot: Secular Zionism effectively ends with the Oslo agreements
    We are now in Mincha Gedola

    2. Any ideology is by definition divisive as there are those who hold by it and those who don’t.

    3. What is “insider logic” and opposed to outsider logic?

    #1417388
    jdb
    Participant

    Most religious zionists say that this is the beginning of the flowering of the geulah. That is to say, we are living in the days shortly before moshiach. Most gedoylim have already said this. VaYoel Moshe is widely learned here as well. Not lehachis, simply as a sefer. To quote one prominent Chardalli Rav, ‘we have a lot in common. 613 things. We even agree that the return of Jews to our land is a religiously significant event’ I heard this first hand.

    #1417420
    simcha613
    Participant

    I can’t speak for other Religious Zionists, but my personal understanding of the medina’s relationship to the final geula is how it facilitated and continues to facilitate kibutz galuyos. One of the most important aspects of the medina since the beginning is the right of return which gives all Jews automatic citizenship to the medina if they want it. In this way, the medina has enabled an incredible amount of Jews to return to the Land of Israel, to the point where almost 50% of our nation has returned to our Land. Assuming kibutz galuyos is a return of our people to our land, and that kibutz galuyos is an essential component of the final geula, I find it hard to separate the medina from the ongoing kibutz galuyos and the final geula.

    #1417570
    GAON
    Participant

    Simcha and others,
    I am surprised no one quoted one the greatest poskim in Poland in the mid 19th century, Rav Yehosua Trunk of Kutna ZTL in his responsum

    ื‘ืฉื•”ืช “ื™ืฉื•ืขื•ืช ืžืœื›ื•”, ื—ืœืง ื™ื•”ื“, ืกื™ืžืŸ ืก”ื•:
    He writes the following:

    ื”ืขืœื™ื™ื” ืœืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ื”ื™ื. ืืžื ื, ื’ื ืœื“ื‘ืจื™ ื”ืจืžื‘”ืŸ ืฉืžื ื” ืืช ื™ืจื•ืฉืช ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืœืžืฆื•ื•ืช ืขืฉื” ื‘ืคื ื™ ืขืฆืžื”, ืžื›ืœ ืžืงื•ื “ืขื™ืงืจ ื”ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ืื™ื ื• ืืœื ื”ื™ืจื•ืฉื” ื•ื”ื™ืฉื™ื‘ื” ื›ืื“ื ื”ืขื•ืฉื” ื‘ืชื•ืš ืฉืœื•, ืœื›ื‘ื•ืฉ ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืฉืชื”ื™ื” ืชื—ืช ื™ืจื•ืฉืชื ื•”, ื•ืื ื›ืŸ ืขืœื™ื™ืชื ื•ื”ืชื™ื™ืฉื‘ื•ืชื ืฉืœ ื™ื—ื™ื“ื™ื, ื›ืฉืื™ืŸ ื™ื“ ื™ืฉืจืืœ ืชืงื™ืคื” ื‘ืืจืฅ ื™ืฉืจืืœ, ืื™ื ื” ืขื™ืงืจ ื”ืžืฆื•ื•ื”.

    ืืš ื›ื‘ืจ ื”ืžืฉื™ืœื• ืขื ื™ื™ืŸ ื–ื” ืœืžืฆื•ื•ืช ืขืฉื” ืฉืœ ืื›ื™ืœืช ืžืฆื”, ื›ื™ ืขื™ืงืจ ื”ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื”ื™ื ื”ืื›ื™ืœื”, ื•ืœืงื™ื—ืช ื”ื—ื™ื˜ื™ื ืœืฉื ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื•ื”ืœื™ืฉื” ื•ื”ืืคื™ื™ื” ืื™ื ื ื’ืžืจ ืžืฆื•ื•ื”, ื•ืžื›ืœ ืžืงื•ื ื‘ื•ื•ื“ืื™ ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” ื”ื™ื. ื•ืขืœ ื–ื” ื ืืžืจ “ื’ื•ืžืœ ืœืื™ืฉ ื—ืกื“ ื›ืžืคืขืœื•”, ื’ื ืขืœ ื”ืคืขื•ืœื” ืฉืœ ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ืžืงื‘ืœ ืฉื›ืจ. ื•ื ืืžืจ “ืืฉืจื™ ืชืžื™ืžื™ ื“ืจืš”, ื’ื ืขืœ ื”ื“ืจืš ืฉืœ ืขื•ืฉื™ ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื™ืฉ ื‘ื• ืฉืœืžื•ืช.

    ืื™ืŸ ืกืคืง ืฉื”ื™ื ืžืฆื•ื•ื” ื’ื“ื•ืœื” – ื›ื™ ื”ืงื™ื‘ื•ืฅ ื”ื•ื ืืชื—ืœืชื ื“ื’ืื•ืœื” ื•ื ืืžืจ “ืขื•ื“ ืืงื‘ืฅ ืขืœื™ื• ืœื ืงื‘ืฆื™ื•”, ื•ืขื™ื™ืŸ ื‘ื™ื‘ืžื•ืช ื“ืฃ ืก”ื“ ืฉืื™ืŸ ื”ืฉื›ื™ื ื” ืฉื•ืจื” ืคื—ื•ืช ืžืฉืชื™ ืจื‘ื‘ื•ืช ืžื™ืฉืจืืœ, ื•ื‘ืคืจื˜ ืขืชื” ืฉืจืื™ื ื• ื”ืชืฉื•ืงื” ื”ื’ื“ื•ืœื”, ื”ืŸ ื‘ืื ืฉื™ื ืคื—ื•ืชื™ ืขืจืš, ื”ืŸ ื‘ื‘ื™ื ื•ื ื™ื™ื, ื”ืŸ ื‘ื™ืฉืจื™ื ื‘ืœื‘ื•ืชื, ืงืจื•ื‘ ืœื•ื“ืื™ ืฉื ืชื ื•ืฆืฅ ืจื•ื— ื”ื’ืื•ืœื”. ืืฉืจื™ ื—ืœืงื• ืฉื”ื•ื ืžืžื–ื›ื” ืจื‘ื™ื.

    Hence, he clearly upheld that the very motion of Kibutz was/is the beginning part of the geulah.

    Note, this is not necessarily a support of the Zionist movement in itself, but it sure is support of the very concept.

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