Relying on a heter of someone else

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  • #595855

    Feif Un
    Participant

    I am in the process of buying a house. The owners are not Jewish, so I called my Rav about how to kasher the kitchen. It was very straightforward except the dishwasher. There are many different opinions regarding them.

    My Rav told me that if it’s made of metal or plastic, I can kasher it easily. However, I know that many Rabbonim hold that either you can’t kasher it at all, or that you must wait a full year before kashering it.

    Here’s a theoretical case. Let’s say I invite you over for Shabbos. Your Rav holds that a dishwasher can’t be kashered. You know that I kashered my dishwasher based on the psak I received, and have been washing my dishes in it for a long time.

    Would you use the dishes in my house?

    #755830

    No.

    #755831

    anon1m0us
    Participant

    Yes.

    #755832

    maybe

    #755833

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Kind of depends.

    If it is something I hold is ???? ?? ????, then I would not eat it in your house.

    If it is something I am just machmir on, and it will mean I can’t eat in your house, I would eat it.

    #755834

    MDG
    Participant

    Maybe, I would ask my Rav first.

    #755835

    bpt
    Participant

    Are you and your Rov Orthodox? Then yes. I might ask that you serve either meat, pareve or cholov yisroel, but your dishes are a go.

    Pesach is a different story, but year round, absolutely.

    #755836

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    I agree with Popa, except that even if I held it was ????, if I only held it was a ????? then perhaps in certain circumstances there would be a ???? to be ???? due to ???? ??????. But that is certainly not something to be thrown around lightly.

    #755837

    I don’t know, but FWIW, when we moved, we were told we could kasher our dishwasher as long as we replace all the plastic parts. We found out that replacing the plastic would cost almost as much as a new dishwasher, so we ended up getting rid of it.

    #755838

    zaidy78
    Participant

    My Rav told me that one cannot be oiver on Bain Adam L’chaveiro because of a chumra of Bain Adam l’Makom.

    The example he gave was that if a guest came to your house and brought you a cake or a bottle of wine with a hechsher that you would normally not eat, (not because it’s treif ch”v, but because you are machmir on a better hechsher – I think the example he gave was a wine with the OU only) you have a chiyuv bain adam lichaveiro to serve it and use it. And that overrides your “minhag” of only using badatz.

    Now with regard to your dishwasher, (I would ask my Rav first, but I think he would tell me) that the dishwasher was (probably) cleaned well before your first use and there is no treif in it now, so whatever chumrah I would have would be innapropiate at your home.

    (Disclosure: I have not learned well bassar b’chalav – so I don’t know what the practical issues of the machlokes with regard to dishwashers is and if its a question of chumra to wait a year or if its a shaila of real tarfus)

    #755839

    s2021
    Member

    I would. That dont mean I know what Im doin..

    #755840

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I think the subject of thread is wrong. If your Rav told you that you can Kasher it easily, that is not a hetter. That is a psak that you can kasher your dishwasher and make it 100% kosher as far as he is concerned. If other Rabbonim pasken that it can not be kashered, then that is not a chumra, but a psak that the dishwasher can not be kashered at all and it remains treif (unless they hold that me-ikkar hadin it can be kashered but they want to be machmir like a specific shita for whatever reason in which case, the first Rav is not maikel, the second is machmir). In which case your quesiton becomes, if I have an item that is kosher meikkar hadin, but someone is noheig a chumra, am I obligated to let him know that he would be violating his chumra, or conversely, must he always investigate that all situations conform to his chumra. To me, the word hetter always comes with the implication that the Rav found a loophole, which is often not the case and where possible, I try to avoid its usage because it is disparaging.

    #755841

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes, since it’s not a ben-yomo, the food is muttar b’dieved anyhow.

    #755842

    oomis
    Participant

    Yes. I am pretty sure my Rov holds that your minhag or the p’sak that you follow doesn’t necessarily override the p’sak someone else follows from a reliable rov. I would ask my Rov, but I am 99%certain it would be ok. Ask the shailah.

    On Pesach, though I have never done this, I learned that an Ashkenazi may eat food prepared by a Sefardi in sefardic pots and pans, as long as the food contains no kitniyos.

    #755843

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Yes. I am pretty sure my Rov holds that your minhag or the p’sak that you follow doesn’t necessarily override the p’sak someone else follows from a reliable rov.

    According to this, you could eat the actual kitniyos, as long as your Sephardi host has a reliable rov.

    #755844

    charliehall
    Participant

    “Would you use the dishes in my house?”

    Absolutely! You did everything you were supposed to do. And anyone who says you should do anything other than what your rav says isn’t orthodox.

    #755845

    charliehall
    Participant

    “According to this, you could eat the actual kitniyos”

    And you would violate absolutely no halachah by doing so.

    #755846

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, since it’s not a ben-yomo, the food is muttar b’dieved anyhow.

    That is a good point.

    #755847

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    “According to this, you could eat the actual kitniyos”

    And you would violate absolutely no halachah by doing so.

    Except the ‘??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ?.

    #755848

    apushatayid
    Participant

    I have a family member who won’t use my dishes because I eat gebrokts and he doesn’t, he claims he received such a psak. On the flip side, many who don’t eat gebrokts have eaten on my dishes and have told me their rav says its no problem. Just follow your rav.

    #755849

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    “Yes, since it’s not a ben-yomo, the food is muttar b’dieved anyhow.”

    That is a good point.

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    Truthfully my rav is matir to use a treife dishwasher, but that’s another story.

    #755850

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    I’m not sure I would eat. It depends on why my rabbi was assuring the food.

    #755851

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    Hmmm.

    #755852

    ItcheSrulik
    Member

    Stam kelim enam ben yom?

    #755853

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    Hmmm.

    even if you you use a knife on onion, the taam wont come out of the knife, but there is no treif taam in the knife, cuz where did it come from? – not he dishwasher which is more than a ben yomo. you could have a real problem if you cooked treif in the dishwasher and then used it to cut the onion

    #755854

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    Interesting thought. Following the same reasoning, if you kasher a ??? in a larger ???, both ???? ?? ????, if there is no ‘???? ?? (which is not required in this case), the larger ??? should never be subsequently used for a ??? ???? (this is, of course not the case).

    The (? ??”? (??”? ?’ ?? quotes his son ?’ ??? ????”? who uses this ??? to be ???? washing dishes ?????? in a treif (???? ?? ????) dishwasher. R’ Moshe argues because it becomes part of the ???? of ???? ?? ???? ??? ?? ????. No mention is made of potential use of a knife (or fork to spear) a ??? ????.

    #755855

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Stam kelim enam ben yom?

    You would only need that to use the dishwasher within 24 hours of when the ??? left the house.

    #755856

    charliehall
    Participant

    *Except the ‘??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ?. *

    That’s a minhag, not a halachah. There is a difference!

    #755857

    charliehall
    Participant

    *Except the ‘??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ?. *

    Also worth mentioning is that we don’t even follow all the Remah’s minhagim! For example, the six closest Ashkenazic synagogues to me recite Hallel in shul on the first night of Pesach.

    #755858

    charliehall
    Participant

    “he claims he received such a psak”

    What is the basis for such a psak. Gebrokts is agreed by everyone to be minhag, not halachah.

    #755859

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    I asked my people. One of them pointed to ??? ????? 447:134 http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14169&st=&pgnum=52

    He is quoting from ?”? that if a food absorbs issur which is pagum, and then the food becomes ????, it does not reinvigorate the issur.

    Perhaps the same applies here, even though it is a bit different.

    #755860

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    *Except the ‘??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ?. *

    That’s a minhag, not a halachah. There is a difference!

    That difference is not that it can be disregarded in someone else’s home!

    Something which may have started as a ???? becomes a ???. Specifically by ??????, the ??”? says

    “??? ?????? ?????? ?????? ?????? ???? ????? “.

    The ?”?, when explaining the development of the ???, says, “?????? ????? ????” and, “????”.

    *Except the ‘??”? ??”? ??”? ???? ?. *

    Also worth mentioning is that we don’t even follow all the Remah’s minhagim! For example, the six closest Ashkenazic synagogues to me recite Hallel in shul on the first night of Pesach.

    This one is universally (AFAIK) accepted by ???????.

    “he claims he received such a psak”

    What is the basis for such a psak. Gebrokts is agreed by everyone to be minhag, not halachah.

    The minhag may have been to not allow keilim either.

    #755861

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    But what if they serve onions and you use your fork and knife that were in the dishwasher?

    Ok, here are my newer thoughts:

    ???? generally does two things:

    A. It makes ???? as if it is not.

    B. It makes ??? ??? into ??? ?????.

    Now, there is a dispute over what is ????. We are ????? that even onions are.

    The ?????? ??? ???? says in 96:3 that we will not say both chumros of charif in a case where the charif is only an onion.

    So that would solve our issue.

    Also, there is a ?? 122:2, which I hope to talk about later.

    #755862

    golden mom
    Member

    This is with everything u have to trust the person ur by everybody holds different ur not going to go thru everything before u serve ur guest for example many hold that u could use a microwave for milchig and fleishig and just boil water in between our rav doesn’t let he said u need 2 different ones u could go on and on….

    #755863

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    pba,

    What about a radish?

    #755864

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Also, pba, I’m surprised you haven’t mentioned that the detergent is pogem.

    Feif Un,

    I apologize for not saying this until now, but hatzlocha on the house; may you make many simchas there until moshiach comes b’mheira!

    #755865

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    Pesach is no proof to anything, as the Halacha is to be machmir crazy chumras that are shittos Yachid and would never be kept during the year, if that is your minhag.

    http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single_print/1380207

    Ta’am Lefgam is a Machlokes the Rashba & the Ran whether it is no longer Ta’am or it is Batel. Ashkinazim are machmir like the Rashba, and since on Pesach Chametz is not Batel, Aino Ben Yomo may not help.

    As usual, AYLOR.

    As far as your specific case, you may just want to replace the dishwasher. Compared to the price of a house, the difference between buying new racks & a new cheaper dishwasher is not great.

    It should be with Mazel.

    #755866

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    As far as your specific case, you may just want to replace the dishwasher.

    Why should he? His rov said he could kasher it. He’s concerned about serving others who may not hold of this p’sak, but I don’t think anyone who would otherwise eat in his house would refrain because of the dishwasher (as I explained before).

    #755867

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY:

    Because if the difference is small enough, it is worthwhile buying a new one.

    #755868

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW,

    He didn’t say that the rov told him he needs new racks, so it’s a total loss.

    #755869

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    DY: Why would detergent help us when eino ben yomo won’t?

    #755870

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    ??? ???? is ????? a ??? which is ???? ?????

    #755871

    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Popa-

    Why would detergent help us when eino ben yomo won’t?

    I was actally klerring if that which a davar charif is mashbiach something which is pagum is even by something which is be’etzem pagum or only by an eino ben yomo. Is this mefurash?

    #755873

    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’ll look into it.

    However, soap does not make the taam pagum in itself. It just makes sure that the taam will be pogem whatever you mix it into.

    #755874

    gavra_at_work
    Participant

    DY:

    Thanks. Didn’t notice that.

    Feif: Did your Rov Pasken you have to change the racks?

    #755875

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    GAW,

    An additional factor is that it’s also costly to have the dishwasher installed.

    #755876

    charliehall
    Participant

    “This one is universally (AFAIK) accepted by ???????.”

    And *that*, not the codification of the Rema, is why Ashkenazic Jews don’t eat kitniyot. Minhag is important.

    “Because if the difference is small enough, it is worthwhile buying a new one. “

    Dishwashers aren’t that expensive compared to the cost of a new house. It might be worth it.

    Kashrut is the major divider among Jews today. I am glad that I live in a neighborhood where if you are shomer Shabat, people trust your kashrut.

    #755877

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Charlie,

    What has been accepted IS the Rema’s codification!

    I’m not sure why you and Gavra At Work feel that a dishwasher’s relative low cost compared to a house is reason to disregard Feif Un’s rov’s p’sak that he doesn’t need a new one. For one thing, it’s his rov’s p’sak! (To quote someone who I consider to be wise, “And anyone who says you should do anything other than what your rav says isn’t orthodox.”

    Also, some people I know stretch themselves quite thin (financially) when they buy a house, and that’s a time when they specifically need to pinch pennies.

    #755878

    charliehall
    Participant

    “What has been accepted IS the Rema’s codification! “

    LOL!!!

    Rabbi Yaakov Emden didn’t accept it. And as I pointed out, many other codifications of the Rema have not been accepted. And the Rema never codified that massive expansion of the definition of kitniyot we’ve seen in the past generations.

    “a dishwasher’s relative low cost compared to a house is reason to disregard Feif Un’s rov’s p’sak that he doesn’t need a new one”

    As I said, I agree that he can follow is Rov and that anyone who doesn’t accept it isn’t Orthodox. But because there are so many people who claim to be Orthodox who won’t accept it, it may be worth an extra 1/10 of 1% of the cost of the house to get a new dishwasher. Sometimes you just have to cave in to the folks who won’t accept the halachic process in order to maintain shalom among Jews.

    #755880

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Rabbi Yaakov Emden didn’t accept it. And as I pointed out, many other codifications of the Rema have not been accepted. And the Rema never codified that massive expansion of the definition of kitniyot we’ve seen in the past generations.

    I know that there is some debate about how far the issue of kitniyos extends; my point remains that one can’t disregard his own p’sak just to be able to eat in someone else’s home (unless his p’sak allows for that, as pba mentioned earlier).

    The example of the dishwasher was, in my opinion, one in which even one who follows a p’sak not to rely on a certain heter might do so because of the halachos of blios. Pba’s example would also be valid; a situation in which one held that meikar hadin something is muttar.

    However, in a situation that involves a clear issur according to one’s rov (or a talmid chacham’s own p’sak), there is no room for such a compromise. I naively assumed that kitniyos for an Ashkenazi in a Sefardi home would be an example that everyone could agree to.

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