Repeating Shemone Esrei without Tefilin

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  • #604175

    choppy
    Participant

    If you forgot Yaaleh VeYavo by Roshe Chodesh Shachris and only realized it over an hour after removing your Tefilin, should you put your Tefilin back on and repeat Shemone Esrei, repeat it now without Tefilin or wait till Mincha and say two Shemone Esrei’s?

    #1195129

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    Look in shulchan aruch siman 422, se-if 1, and the mishne berurah there. If you davened mussaf (and I imagine you did) there is a machlokes whether you msut repeat. The mishne berurah is not “machria’ and I would say “sofek berochos lehaikal”

    #1195130

    147
    Participant

    Fortunately, the next time this could potentially occur, this question is off the hook, as next Rosh Chodesh occurrence is Shabbos Re’eh when Tefillin are not worn.

    #1195131

    Sam2
    Participant

    Choppy: Why would you put on Tefillin again? I think we try and minimize how much we wear Tefillin because we assume we cannot have a Guf V’da’as Naki for so long.

    If you have to repeat Shmoneh Esrei M’ikar Hadin and have no way out of it, then of course you shouldn’t wait for Minchah to Daven twice. Doing so would be missing B’meizid and then your “Tashlumin” is actually just Korov L’brachos Levatalos.

    #1195132

    choppy
    Participant

    What do you mean “no way out of it”?

    I remember learning (don’t have source) that after a certain amount of time has elapsed after you finished davening, you can’t simply repeat S”E at a random time (when you remember) between two tefilos.

    #1195133

    R.T.
    Participant

    In my siddur, it’s brought down that after Mussaf is said, Shachris isn’t repeated.

    147: Rosh Chodesh Elul is on Shabbos and Sunday (2 days)

    Sam2: One may put on tefillin again as long as his body is fairly clean and he has the proper mindset. There are those who argue not to put on Tefillin after Musaf (on Rosh Chodesh) until Mincha time. See also the Bais Yosef, Orach Chaim 44 where there is a practice to put Tallis & Tefillin on every fast day in the afternoon, to make up for missing Brachos (Moroccan practice).

    Choppy: The period between Chatzos HaYom and Mincha Gedola (30-40 minutes) is usually considered Tefilla-free. I am mesupak if any Shmonai Esrai (save for Mussaf) can be said in that timeframe.

    #1195134

    Sam2
    Participant

    Choppy: You are probably thinking of the Shittas Harashba brought down in the Beis Yosef (if I recall correctly) that for a Tashlumin the second Shmoneh Esrei must be while you are still Osek in that T’fillah, so it could be that as soon as you move on to Tachanun is too late. The Rashba isn’t brought down by most other Poskim, but we are probably still Choshesh for it because it’s a Safek Brachos issue. But that’s not true by if you actually weren’t Yotzei.

    (You might also have been thinking of the fact that even though if you’re unsure if you said Ya’aleh V’yavo (or Mashiv Haruach within 30 days, etc.) you have to assume that you didn’t and therefore repeat, that is only true if the Safek comes to you during Shmoneh Esrei or immediately after. If the Safek comes to you a while after (I don’t know what the precise Shiur is, maybe Toch K’dei Dibur but I have no Makor for that) then you can assume you got it right. But this doesn’t help if you are absolutely sure that you got it wrong.)

    By “no way out of it” I meant that in a lot of cases of repeating Shmoneh Esrei there are minority Shittos that would say you don’t repeat and therefore you might actually not repeat because of Safek Brachos. Rabbiofberlin’s post is only one such example.

    R.T.: While you are right M’ikar Hadin, I believe that many nowadays are Makpid to wear T’fillin as little as possible. We have narrowed it down to just Shacharis and maybe a little learning after. You fulfill the Mitzvah by that. Why risk ruining it by wearing it more than we are capable of doing properly?

    #1195135

    R.T.
    Participant

    Sam2 – “…I believe that many nowadays are Makpid to wear T’fillin as little as possible…narrowed it down to just Shacharis…”

    That is correct. Due to Yeridat HaDorot, among other issues, it is best to put Tefillin at limited times in the morning (when our minds our clear, etc..)

    There are Yechidim who wear Tefillin at Mincha, but that’s not publicized, etc…

    #1195136

    557
    Participant

    Why risk ruining it by wearing it more than we are capable of doing properly?

    Source? When one temporarily does not have guf or daas naki, he is not fulfilling the mitzvah, but how is he “ruining it”? I’m not arguing on your statements about what most people do; I’m only questioning your last statement.

    #1195137

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The mishne berurah is not “machria’

    It seems to me that he was machria, to repeat Shemone Esreh with a t’nai that if he doesn’t need to, it should be a t’filas n’dovoh.

    #1195138

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: I believe that is also what the M”B says, but this is one of the few places we don’t really agree with him. Many Poskim say to avoid T’fillos Nedava altogether nowadays because we can’t always have Kavana properly (similar to the Rama quoting the Gemara about why we don’t repeat if you didn’t have Kavana in the first Bracha). Many are Noheg like the M”B, but many are also Noheg not like him when it comes to T’fillos Nedava.

    #1195139

    shlishi
    Member

    Sam2: Who is the “we” in the “we don’t really agree with him”?

    #1195140

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Many Poskim say to avoid T’fillos Nedava altogether nowadays because we can’t always have Kavana properly

    For the sake of nedava, you’re right. When it’s to avoid a shailah (such as our case), I’ve seen that we do.

    R’ Chaim Kanievsky in Shoneh Halachos does not bring the opinion not to repeat.

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    http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=49174&st=&pgnum=411&hilite=

    #1195141

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    Shlishi,

    Sam2 merely meant that common custom in this case is not like the M”B.

    #1195142

    choppy
    Participant

    You are probably thinking of the Shittas Harashba brought down in the Beis Yosef (if I recall correctly) that for a Tashlumin the second Shmoneh Esrei must be while you are still Osek in that T’fillah, so it could be that as soon as you move on to Tachanun is too late.

    I think that’s it. And I learnt it l’halacha, that’s how we act. Also, if it is necessary to say a second S”E for a missed tefila, as I recall it must be said immediately upon concluding the first S”E. Otherwise the opportunity is missed.

    #1195143

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    if it is necessary to say a second S”E for a missed tefila, as I recall it must be said immediately upon concluding the first S”E.

    L’chatchilah.

    Otherwise the opportunity is missed.

    M”B (108:15) concludes that one should daven; the opportunity is not missed.. He advises that the second tefillah be a nedava b’tnai.

    #1195144

    Sam2
    Participant

    DY: And, as mentioned above, if you don’t hold of doing a N’dava B’tanai then it’s missed.

    Choppy: Not immediately. You still have to wait K’dei Hiluch 4 Amos (about 2.2 seconds) between finishing the first and starting the second.

    #1195145

    choppy
    Participant

    And how long after the first, according to M”B, is the maximum amount of time that can elapse before starting the second S”E?

    #1195146

    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    DY: And, as mentioned above, if you don’t hold of doing a N’dava B’tanai then it’s missed.

    No, he advises it l’ravcha d’milsa, but holds that mei’ikar hadin you can still daven during the z’man of that t’fillah.

    #1195147

    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    Teffilin and Teffila are two separate Mitzvos. We wear Teffilin while davening because Teffilah needs a Guf Nukkei and ao does Teffilin. Sow we “kill two birds with one stone”. However, if someone does not have Teffilin available and it comes time to daven, I woulds aay he should daven without Teffilin and put Teffilin on later in the day. And if someone missed Shachris, he still has the mitzva of Teffilin. The mitzva of Teffilin is the entire day whereas Shachris is only in the morning.

    That being said, I don’t see why you should have to put your Teffilin back on to repeat Shemonei Esrai.

    SiDi™

    #1195149

    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    What about this question:

    If I put on my Tefilin, finished daening and took my Tefilin off. Then I realized that I never wrapped the Tefilin around my finger. Do I need to put Tefilin back on or was I yotzeh?

    SiDi™

    #1195150

    Sam2
    Participant

    SiDi: The finger isn’t M’akev anything. I don’t even know if any Rishonim say that wrapping around the arm is M’akev B’dieved.

    #1195151

    SayIDidIt™
    Participant

    Sam2: That’s what I thought. Thanks!

    What about my post above that one? Did what I say in that post true according to Halacha?

    SiDi™

    #1195152

    Sam2
    Participant

    SiDi: I did not see anything objectionable or problematic in there that I felt a need to comment on it.

    But since you asked, I would make one slight He’ara. Part of the reason we put on T’fillin for Davening is that Chazal (well, it was really post-Chazal, but however this Minhag developed) trusted us to be able to be N’kiyim partially because we were Davening. Meaning, they told us to wear T’fillin during Davening because we’re most likely to be proper then in both our actions and thoughts. Also, it’s Assur to be M’siach Da’as from T’fillin while wearing them, therefore we wear it during Davening when we’re constantly thinking of similar things anyway. Therefore, if one’s T’fillin are not available for Shacharis, I hold that L’chatchilah he should wait until Minchah to put them on (though I readily admit that such an obligation is not explicitly found in the Poskim).

    #1195153

    rabbiofberlin
    Participant

    I have not been on this subject for some days….As some of the posters have said, today we do not “daven” “tefillas nedovoh” due to the impossibility of keeping “kavanah” the whole shemonei esrei (nothwithstanding What you bring down from R”Chaim Kanyevsky) This is why I said that “sofek berochos lehokel’ and you should not daven again.

    #1195154

    mik5
    Participant

    Regarding tefillin he certainly should daven with his tefillin, as we see in numerous places that davening with tefillin is more important than davening even with a minyan. There are opinions that he can be lenient if he will be embarrassed to daven with his tefillin.

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