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  • #616682
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    Concentration Camp Uniforms, Protests, and Halacha

    Anyone else find the first picture repulsive?

    #1113261
    TheGoq
    Participant

    Yes i do, don’t use children as props if you have an agenda you dress up in the costume.

    #1113262
    555
    Participant

    yes, Student, everybody young and affected by the media!

    PURPOSELY I showed this picture to war survivors i know (World War-2 NOT MEDINA WARS) and they smiled.

    Those Chareidim Targeted by the Zionist don’t find this picture more repulsive than a Religious Jew in IDF uniform. They are just to peaceful to scream and fight. Besides for being worn out by the war.

    #1113263
    🍫Syag Lchochma
    Participant

    its not about media exposure, it’s about your political leanings.

    #1113264
    akuperma
    Participant

    While one probably disagrees with their position that the secularism of the Israeli military is a threat to Jewish survival just as much as the Nazis were, they seem to have been effectively in communicating how they feel.

    #1113265
    Avi K
    Participant

    555,

    1. WW2 survivors? Were they American soldiers? A smile can mean various things.

    2. What Chareidim “targeted” by Zionists? As for a religious Jew in an IDF uniform, what can be better? Wearing the clothes of the paritz? There is an obligation to be in the army in a milchemet mitzva – and we are in an ongoing milchemet mitzva with breaks. We all want it to end but not by surrendering. THere is an obligation to conquer and settle EY – and that obviously pushes off pikuach nefesh (Minchat Chinuch Mitzva 604 section 4).

    #1113266
    555
    Participant

    Avi: First tell me how many wars you fought in the Israeli army? In the front line? Why aren’t YOU doing this big important mitzvah?

    What do you know about that army?

    Where is your Mesirut Nefesh? Where?

    In the CR ?!?

    I did not look up the minchat Chinuch yet.

    #1113267
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    One doesn’t have to be a Zionist or agree with the Israeli government on anything to be disgusted when seeing people use children this way to make any kind of statement.

    #1113268
    Student of Torah
    Participant

    Firstly, I agree with R’ Yair Hoffman that it is Onaah to survivors, and even those who aren’t survivors, since most if not everyone, has at least one relative who was killed Al Kiddush Hashem during the holocaust. Also, to see someone dressed like a prisoner during the War for a protest can also be painful

    Also, it undermines the wickedness of the Nazis to call people who are any less evil, “Nazis”.

    #1113269
    Avi K
    Participant

    555, I was the equivalent of 4-F despite my protestations. However, I live on a yishuv in Yehuda v’Shomron so the Arabs thus consider me to be a soldier. Does that answer your question about messirut nefesh?

    #1113270
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K – First let me just say I don’t find the picture repulsive, but I wouldn’t let my kids dress up like that.

    “There is an obligation to be in the army in a milchemet mitzva – and we are in an ongoing milchemet mitzva with breaks.”

    Stop with your Zionist lies! Even if there is a Mitzvah to conquer EY nowadays, the Israeli govt. & the IDF aren’t doing it. The proof is they gave up S. Lebanon & GAZA & the West Bank!

    #1113271
    lesschumras
    Participant

    With regard to the draft, are chareidim opposed to a military draft by any country or just the IDF?

    #1113272
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    How many frum people of any type, chareidi or otherwise, do you know who join any other county’s military voluntarily?

    #1113273
    lesschumras
    Participant

    Very few, if any. In the 1960’s a handful joined National Guard units to avoid the draft during the Viet Nam War.

    However, my father in law was drafted in WW2, as were most of his friends. My question was, how would the chareidim have reacted to that draft, as opposed to the IDF draft

    #1113274
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    You’re asking as if it’s theoretical, but in fact, frum Jews for the most part have always tried to avoid military service, because it’s next to impossible to keep the Torah there.

    #1113275
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    You’re asking as if it’s theoretical, but in fact, frum Jews for the most part have always tried to avoid military service, because it’s next to impossible to keep the Torah there.

    that is true and in past generations the Draft was used more as a tax and/or punishment for jews. However this is not the case in Israel. Jewish soldiers are not being used to fight a war for the Anti-Semetic Czar

    #1113276
    MDG
    Participant

    “Stop with your Zionist lies! Even if there is a Mitzvah to conquer EY nowadays, the Israeli govt. & the IDF aren’t doing it. The proof is they gave up S. Lebanon & GAZA & the West Bank! “

    I’m not commenting on the Medina or Tzahal, but there are many reasons within halacha that could explain giving up land. For example, what is out chiyuv today? Is is conquering or inheriting (see Ramban at end of Rambam’s sefer Hamitsvot)? Does pikuah nefesh override?

    #1113277
    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY, I agree with the European drafts of the 19th century and prior. Jews went in forcibly for 20-30 year enlistments and were never seen again. My great-grandfather came to the US in the 1870’s to escape the Prussian Army draft. WW2 was different. Frum Jews of my father in law’s generation felt they were in a country that , for the first time in centuries, allowed them to be citizens ( despite the antisemitism) as well live as a frum Jew. It was a universal draft, not just for Jews, and they felt a duty to defend their country.

    #1113278
    lesschumras
    Participant

    DY my FIL was able to lain tefillin and avoid being loved almost all averos when not in combet

    #1113279
    REALIST
    Member

    Lesschumras,

    more spelling!

    #1113280
    REALIST
    Member

    I know, Auto-correct is geferlach.

    #1113281
    zahavasdad
    Participant

    Lesschumras,

    more spelling!

    LOL

    #1113282
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I must say, though, that although there were some, I am under the impression that it was still rare. It’s almost unheard of today, although we still live in a medinah shel chessed, and religious accommodation is the law.

    #1113283
    Avi K
    Participant

    Health,

    Stop with your anti-Zionist lies! You are correct that the withdrawals from Gaza and southern Lebanon (FYI, we still control Yehuda v’Shomron – I am, in fact, writing these lines in this area) were wrong but that was due to the venality of certain “leaders” – with the acquiescence of the “Chareidi” parties. In an any case, there is a mitzva to defend Am Yisrael (Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 5:1).

    Moreover, a person who accepts the benefits of citizenship, such as welfare payments, must also accept the obligations of citizenship. There might be room to defer someone who is truly learning (and not just listed) but at least he should say the “mishe berach” for the soldiers and give shiurim. Those who are cohanim can be meshuchei milchama.I refer you to Rav Eliezer Melamed’s essay “Judaism: The Mitzvah to Join the IDF”.

    #1113284
    Health
    Participant

    Avi K – “Health, Stop with your anti-Zionist lies!”

    What lies? Did you ever hear of the PA? What area do they control? They don’t control GAZA!

    “You are correct that the withdrawals from Gaza and southern Lebanon (FYI, we still control Yehuda v’Shomron – I am, in fact, writing these lines in this area) were wrong but that was due to the venality of certain “leaders” – with the acquiescence of the “Chareidi” parties. In an any case, there is a mitzva to defend Am Yisrael (Rambam, Hilchot Melachim 5:1).”

    So What?!?

    “Moreover, a person who accepts the benefits of citizenship, such as welfare payments, must also accept the obligations of citizenship.”

    This I agree with. Don’t take the Zionist money!

    From Wikipedia: “The international community considers the establishment of Israeli settlements in the Israeli-occupied territories illegal under international law,[1][2][3][4][5] however Israel maintains that they are consistent with international law[6] because it does not agree that the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to the territories occupied in the 1967 Six-Day War.[7] The United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, the International Committee of the Red Cross, the International Court of Justice and the High Contracting Parties to the Convention have all affirmed that the Fourth Geneva Convention does apply.”

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