October 12, 2011 7:58 pm at 7:58 pm #599946
I just want to make a point which is not up for debate because its a fact. Being machshiv a godal isnt puting pictures up on your wall or asking for a bracha. Its listening to what he says. And if you want to know why if its a fact do i have to write it. The messilas yisharim says there are many facts everyone knows but still dont keep to them, because its not on the forefront of there mind. Shivisi lahashem linegdi tamid.October 12, 2011 8:09 pm at 8:09 pm #817681
I just want to make a point which is not up for debate because its a fact.
Hmm…October 12, 2011 8:13 pm at 8:13 pm #817682matziv chapperMember
yashrus20- Kishmo kein hu, well said, its unfortunate the way gedolim are viewedin the world today, as a friend of mine once said, every week in the hamodia he finds a new rebbe ,
i think what you said was similar to what R Matisyahu recently said , that the reason why HKB”H let 3 gedloim be niftar in such a short period of time is becuase we would not heed their words anyways.October 12, 2011 8:14 pm at 8:14 pm #817683
You might try and start doing as Gedolim do and quoting Pesukim properly.October 12, 2011 8:24 pm at 8:24 pm #817684
i know i chopped after..hashem not la. But thats charachter assassination. If you have a problem with my point argue with that.October 12, 2011 8:26 pm at 8:26 pm #817685
It’s a fact that it’s pronounced cholent and not chulent, and it isn’t up for debate. And if you don’t believe me, well hey, the Mesilas Yesharim says there are many facts everyone knows but still don’t keep to, because they are not on the forefront of their minds.October 12, 2011 8:34 pm at 8:34 pm #817686matziv chapperMember
ok so lets all stop talking and start doing….
so which gedoilim were matir the internet????
yes i am a hypocrite, im not gonna rationalizeOctober 12, 2011 8:37 pm at 8:37 pm #817687
yitay-I think youve missed the point. Ill help you out, the messilos yisharim was about it being on the forefront of your mind…NOT A PROOF TO THE FACT!October 12, 2011 8:56 pm at 8:56 pm #817688
I know what you meant.
I was facetiously trying to point out that this isn’t the way to make an argument, as strongly as you feel about it. No one will ever listen to you if you start off with the sentence you did.October 12, 2011 9:10 pm at 9:10 pm #817689
If you only knew what type of guy i am. Its part of my overly egotistcal side. Its just the way i speak.October 12, 2011 9:24 pm at 9:24 pm #817690
I’m not judging you. But if you ever want to try to convince any thinking person of anything, you’re going to have to tone it down.October 16, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #817691oyveykidsthesedaysMember
“so which gedoilim were matir the internet????”
Rav Hershel Schachter maintains that if the following three precautions are taken, it is permissible to use the internet:
1. Areivim, or some other form of buddy system, in which a list of every website you connect to will be sent to a predesignated friend or rebbi.
2. A good filter.
3. The computer must be in a location where people can/will walk in at any time and see what you’re doing.October 16, 2011 1:23 am at 1:23 am #817692
This is getting off topic..The point of a shmooze isnt to use it to point at the other guy…rather take what you got and apply it to yourself..otherwise it will just be an argument that is external instead of what it was meant to be internal..In YOUR HEART..think about it. Most ppl are to busy with everyone else they forget to make time for themselves.October 16, 2011 10:14 am at 10:14 am #817693
I one heard something said in the name of the Chofetz Chaim.
There was once a doctor that came to a town for a while. Local theives stole the doctors equiptment and meds. The next day someones child was severly sick, the parents came running to the doc, however the doc was unable to treat the patient since he had no medicatio.
The moral is, by bashing Gedolim we are accomplishing one thing, that in the event that we will have to use them, they won’t be able to help us. Our children or spouses won’t listen or respect their words. Same as with the doctor.October 16, 2011 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #817694
No one bashes Gedolim. People bash the idea that there is a concept of “Gedolim” as interpreted by the current “Yeshivish”/”Chariedi”/”Ultra-Orthodox” world.October 16, 2011 3:22 pm at 3:22 pm #817696popa_bar_abbaParticipant
No one bashes Gedolim. People bash the idea that there is a concept of “Gedolim” as interpreted by the current “Yeshivish”/”Chariedi”/”Ultra-Orthodox” world.
I don’t know what you mean by that. When I say that, I mean that my rav knows his place, and knows that he shouldn’t be arguing with the people that all the other rabbonim are asking shailos to. It is just about knowing your place.
There has never been an idea in Judaism that each person who happened to get smicha in basar bchalav is on equal terms.October 16, 2011 3:39 pm at 3:39 pm #817697
Don’t know where you live but in most circles people don’t teach their children to respect the words of our gedolim.
There might be only a handful of communitys in which people strictly follow the advice and guidence of a gadol or rabbi.October 16, 2011 3:51 pm at 3:51 pm #817698ItcheSrulikMember
Sam2: ^This.October 16, 2011 5:13 pm at 5:13 pm #817700
I see, Sam. Avi Weiss or Rav Elyashev, they each equally have a right to their own “shittos”. Same with Shlomo Goren and the Chazon Ish. Gotcha.October 16, 2011 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #817701
Sam2-We did not create the concept..last time i checked it dates back to…..moshe rabbeinu.October 16, 2011 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #817703
I just want to make a point which is not up for debate
When someone starts off a debate by stating that their premise is “not up for debate,” it often is, indeed, very debatable.
The WolfOctober 17, 2011 2:17 am at 2:17 am #817704
Whoa, where did I say anything that deserved those responses? I was saying exactly what Lesschumros said, nothing else. And Moshe Rabbeinu made mistakes, the Torah tells us that.October 17, 2011 2:33 am at 2:33 am #817705
Okay, Sam. So will you be the one to tell us when the Gedolim make mistakes? Otherwise who will be this annointed one that points out their mistakes?
Perhaps you, or this anointed one, is mistaken — rather than the Gedolim being mistaken. How do you — or whoever it is that is claiming they are mistaken — know when the Gedolim make a mistake? Is the person claiming they are mistaken greater than them? Do you — or this anointed one — not make mistakes that you can authoritatively advise us when the Gedolim ARE mistaken?October 17, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #817706zahavasdadParticipant
You might want to read about Rav Kook,October 17, 2011 3:21 am at 3:21 am #817707
Shlishi: I never said anyone has the ability to say when a Gadol is mistaken. Still, a basic belief in Judaism (as Rav Schachter stresses fairly often) is that our Gedolim are human and therefore fallible. Granted, it is incredibly rare that anyone can say about any particular issue that any particular Gadol was mistaken about something. But that is far from coming in with the assumption that a Gadol is all-knowing or infallible. Oh, and you realize that your assumption that only someone who never makes mistakes can tell us if someone who very rarely makes mistakes is mistaken is inherently flawed, right?October 17, 2011 3:28 am at 3:28 am #817708
Sam: And the claim that anyone said the Gedolim are not human or infallible is libel.
Also, what is the point of “stressing fairly often” that they are fallible, considering they are greater than any of us and we cannot point out their alleged fallabilities?October 17, 2011 3:39 am at 3:39 am #817709
Rav Schachter says that the idea of religious leaders being infallible is a Christian and not a Jewish idea. And I never said that we can point out their errors. Read the exact quote from Lesschumros and realize that that is all that I said.October 17, 2011 3:43 am at 3:43 am #817710
And, again, the idea that anyone claimed that Gedolim are not human or are infallible is libel.October 17, 2011 3:47 am at 3:47 am #817711
And, again, the idea that anyone claimed that Gedolim are not human or are infallible is libel.
Just whom is it libel against? It may (or may not) be false, but not everything false is libel.
The WolfOctober 17, 2011 3:50 am at 3:50 am #817712
It’s libel against Chareidim, as that is one of the various attack-dog claims the anti-frum hurl at them.October 17, 2011 4:09 am at 4:09 am #817713
Really mods? You let that through? I take great offense at having just been called anti-frum, and I am sure that several others here do too.
I can’t follow the who is attacking who is saying that anybody said what they didn’t say. Do you want the thread closed instead?October 17, 2011 4:13 am at 4:13 am #817714
I never think being controversial is a reason to close a thread, so long as all the opinions brought are valid Al Pi Hatorah. I just don’t like blatant (and blatantly false) insults being thrown around.October 17, 2011 4:33 am at 4:33 am #817715
It’s libel against Chareidim, as that is one of the various attack-dog claims the anti-frum hurl at them.
I fail to see how it’s libel, as it is not defamatory. It may (or may not) be false, but I fail to see how it’s libel.
The WolfOctober 17, 2011 4:55 am at 4:55 am #817716midwesternerParticipant
Daas Torah and the concept of listening to Gedolim does not mean that gedolim are infallible. It only means that even in the unlikely event that they are wrong, (After all, they are human with flesh and blood judgment, and bechira as well) we should listen anyway.
Even if they say on yemin shehu smol.October 17, 2011 7:36 am at 7:36 am #817717ToiParticipant
just funny that the rabbis being brought as proofs are those who werent held of by the gedolimOctober 17, 2011 8:29 am at 8:29 am #817718
Of course tzadikim are only Human beings, and can make mistakes. Even Moshe Rabeinu erred.
However if someone knows it, it is the gedolim.
Doctors also make mistakes, that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t consult with a doctor.
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