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With all of the hullabaloo from both sides about the Tal law and the Plesner committee, We may be losing sight of the ikar. In Bamidbar 32:6 the posuk quotes Moshe Rabeinu asking the simple question – Ha-acheichem yovo’u lamilchomo, vatem teshvu poh?
Defending Jewish lives in eretz Yisroel might be construed as a milchemes mitzvah, and might be construed as a milchemes reshus, but it seems to certainly fit in the category of milchemes chovah as described in the Rambam and kesef mishnah 6:1.
So regardless of who is in government, secular or religious; regardless of who should and shouldn’t be included in any exemption, it seems, at least to me, that the responsibility is clear. What needs to be settled are the terms.
There are frameworks that could support solutions that can be adapted to work for the chareidi oilem, such as hesder and nachal chareidi. So nu, lets not argue about the obvious responsibility, lets talk tachlis and work out the terms.
Wrong. Milchemes Mitzvah can only be declared by a Novi.
That’s besides the fact that it is against halacha to merely have a State, let alone be employed in its Army.
Torah defends Klal Yisroel. First we need to work out an arrangement for all the non-Torah learners in Israel to dedicate a few years to full time Torah study. That is Klal Yisroel’s real defense. Only after that arrangement is in effect, can we even discuss removing anyone from the Yeshiva to put them in the Army.
Responsibility to serve in the Beis Medrash. Now that is a real responsibility. Let’s work out the details.
Yichusdik- What “seems” to be so blatantly obvious to you apparently isn’t as obvious to the Gedolei Hador. Maybe they are not aware of that Rambam or that pasuk mefureshes in the Bamidbar. Perhaps you could enlighten them. Or perhaps forgetting all of the politics in which they meddle a lot less than the secular leaders, they are actually (based on Torah and Halachah) correct, and religious Jews do not belong serving. It might behoove you to try to understand where they are coming from, as opposed to trying to convince the world of your own personal opinion by using misconstrued mekoros. But you could be right, as it is a Meforesh Rambam
yichusdik: I’m pleased to know you feel yourself wiser than Rav Eliashev shlita and the Gedolei HaDor standing with Rav Eliashev on this. Convince Rav Eliashev he is wrong and you are right, and you’ll convince us all. Until then, we will never compromise.
Choppy, you are wrong. A milchemet reshut must be declared by a the Great Sanhedrin (but there is no need for declaration by a navi).However, there is no such need by a milchemet mitzva (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 5:2).
As for establishing a state, on the contrary, it is an absolute obligation as stated explicitly by Ramban in his Sefer HaMitzvot (and some say Rambam does not mention it because it is included in other mitzvot or basic to the Tora as he explains in the Shorashim).
Regarding the Army, it depends. If everyone is needed everyone serves (Rambam Hilchot Melachim 7:4). If not, there can be exemptions for people who are really learning (and just registered). It might even be possible to make do with a volunteer army. This is something which can only be decided by security experts -and both Rav Moshe and Rav Soloveichik said explicitly that they are the “poskim” on security matters.
OK, lets put it this way. This week’s english MIshpacha brings an article about Aviad Friedman, a religious businessman who is trying to get chareidim in the army. Why? Read this:
Mishpacha:You are a religious jew and the scion of a rabbinic family. How can you lend a hand to a committee that many feel will jeopardize the Torah world of Eretz Yisroel?
AF: Let me tell you a story. When the Second Lebanon War began, I was summoned to reserve duty. We were the first reserve force to enter Lebanonk, and my own eyes saw things I would never wish on my worst enemies. Right before we set out, ready to go with all of our equipment and our faces covered with camouflage paint, a soldier named Yair Cohen stood up, removed his shoes, and blessed us with the Bircas Kohanim. And that same Yair Cohen went to the battlefield with a small gemara in his possession, a copy of Maseches Gittin, which was then being learned in day yomi. Throughout the days of combat, he and another soldier named Meir Ben Shachar didn’t miss a single day of studying the day yomi. On one particularly difficult round of combat, our unit was given only 45 minutes to sleep out of an entire 24-hour period. These few minutes, which everyone else used to recoup their strength, these two soldiers used to study the day yomi.
When the war was over, I set out for home in my car after weeks of being away. I drove past the Meron junction, where I spotted a pair of yeshivah bochurim trying to hitch a ride. I stopped for them, despite the protests of my friends who were riding with me.
As we traveled, I asked these two bochurim, “Tell me, what did you do while the war was going on? Did anything change in yeshivah? Did you learn all night as well?” (TMM-bold added) It was important for me to know if they had actually done anything they could on a spiritual plane to help their brothers on the battlefield. From their sheepish expressions, I understood that I had missed something. It was bein hazemanim at the time (TMM-bold added)
Now I know that there were many yeshivas that didn’t take off, whose students and faculty fortified themselves with extra hours and discipline. But I also have friends who organize vacations for the chareidi community. I asked them if there were fewer vacationers during that time, and I understood that although many opted to stay home, many others went on their bein hazemanim vacation as usual. That’s what drove me to act.
What do we have to say to that?
The Charedi population in Israel is growing much faster than the rest of the population. In Israel you cannot work unless you go to the Army.
At some point 50% and even further 75% of the jewish population in Israel will be Charedi.
How can you run a country when 50-75% of the population is in Kollel.
How can you defend the country when 75% refuses to serve in the Army,
yichusdik: Assuming, arguendo, that I agree with else everything you wrote, I still object to the last paragraph: “There are frameworks that could support solutions that can be adapted to work for the chareidi oilem, such as hesder and nachal chareidi.”
This is an outright fallacy. The frameworks from the outset, even in groups such as Nachal Haredi and the Shahar program are flawed by design. The design flaw is that once a soldier joins the army, even with specific terms to keep certain religious liberties, the IDF still has the capability to renege their commitments to those terms. They have done this in the past and they will do it in the future. Until the IDF starts to be as sensitive to charedim as they are to women, there is nothing left to debate.
MusicMan, Yair Cohen and Meir Ben Shachar have big zchus but think of the learning that was lost by their being in the kochi veotzem yadi army to begin with. As for bein hazmanim, it has the force of tradition and you can’t calculate the gain of suspending a tradition against the loss. And the “religious” businessman made his own judgment call on the basis of ed mi-pi ed and ran to Mishpacha with it. That’s not the way of a religious person.
The majority of the Torah community have accepted reality of the Jewish State and are trying to work within the system as good citizens. Being good citizens and accepting realities have been keys to survival of the Torah community for the last 2500 years. On the present issue, I fully expect a negotiated solution that both meet the needs of the community and state will be reached.
Choppy, from your comments it appears that you do not accept the reality of a Jewish State. For you and the Torah community it is best that you relocate to some place that you accept the realities of power. Otherwise the whole Torah community gets “painted” with suspicion of disloyalty; and in turn their negotiating position is weakened.
ZD,
If the IDF would make the necessary accommodations (as per uneeq’s post), the issues you bring up wouldn’t exist.
Don’t blame the chareidim, who are doing what they need to, under the circumstances. Blame the Israeli government.
OP- Evidentally the people in klal yisroel who know kol hatorah kiulah, and certainly understand the relevant maarei mekomos better then you, seem to disagree. So nu, where in the world do you get the chutzpah to declare yourself more qualified then them? in fact, if they know pshat is fifferent then you and you have not the slightest inkling about whta youre saying, youre being migaleh ponim batorah shello kihalachah. so nu, what do you say to that?
I don’t believe anybody actually is unsure of what to
=> The Gedolim say don’t fight; sit and learn. So don’t fight; sit and learn!!
=> The IDF unfortunately don’t make it very easy for Chareidim to serve – some of the stories reminded me of the Russian armies in WW1 where they tried to take the soldiers drafted away from Yiddishkeit!!! Forcing them to sit in rooms with Kol Isha is an atrocity. So there is no question – if your yiddishkeit will be compromised, there is no helping. If the IDF want any cooperation, they may as well become slightly more reasonable.
=> The main focus of a Jew should be his Torah. If that is not possible for personalfinancialother reasons, there is a HETER not to learn. But the whole world was created for Torah only, and without Torah, no country will be successful. Cancelling the Torah learning of the country with the most Harbotzas Torah is unheard of.
What I want to know is – what will happen if/when the government make conscription unavoidable, and Chareidim sitting in Yeshiva will all have to go – what will the Gedolim do?
There will be Mecho’os, of course [hopefully peaceful ones, if the Gedolim have their way] – and then what? Will R’ Elyashiv pick himself up and move to America? Are they just going to make a mass revolution to oust the government? Simply evade the draft and send thousands of bochurim to prison???
The Charedi population in Israel is growing much faster than the rest of the population. In Israel you cannot work unless you go to the Army.
At some point 50% and even further 75% of the jewish population in Israel will be Charedi.
How can you run a country when 50-75% of the population is in Kollel.
How can you defend the country when 75% refuses to serve in the Army,”
actually only 1% of americans are in the army and they manage fine.
I’m happy you people can compare now to Moshe Rabbenu’s times
Toi, did Rav Kook and Rav Y.B. Soloveichik know kol haTorah kulah? However,you would not folllow them. Why? Nor was, somebody could know kol haTorah kula, but you still think that they are wrong. Do you have anything to say?
Americas population is much bigger than Israels.
The Charedi population in Israel is growing much faster than the rest of the population. In Israel you cannot work unless you go to the Army.
At some point 50% and even further 75% of the jewish population in Israel will be Charedi.
How can you run a country when 50-75% of the population is in Kollel.
How can you defend the country when 75% refuses to serve in the Army,
1)change the rules so that you can work without going into the army
2)America stopped the draft a while ago and were safe as anywhere else, secondly who defends Israel, Hashem or the army?
Yekke, how much a person has to learn is a big discussion. The Baal HaTanya says what you say but most say that it depends on the person’s abilities. Most don’t have the ability to sit and learn for an extended period of time but must be doing things. Or work or the Army or getting into trouble. Because the Chareidi establishment does not allow the first two they do the last.This is a big problem and thus there is a movement from the rank and file to change the diskette as we say in Israel.
Yichusdic, excelent kasha.
Coffee addict, why did the Yidden in times of Moshe, Yehoshua or Dovid need an army, for crying out loud? And you can not compare the geopolitical and military realities of Israel and America!
Avi K, a Yid is obligated to learn the whole time inless he has a heter not to learn. The Gemora says this what he was created for.
Why did Raban Shimon Ben Yochai, Shammai, Rashi, Rambam, the Chasam Sofer, and the Chofetz Chaim not need an Army?
Choppy,what shaychos? What in the world are you talking about?!?!? Stop with this intentional Yeshivish obtuseness!! The Klal Yisroel needed an army even in the times of Moshe Rabbeinu and Dovid ha’Melech, for crying out loud! The are Halochos of the army in the “Yad haChazokah”!
But not of an army for apikorsum.
MDD, your seifa erases your reisha. The shiur of talmud Tora is keriat shema twice daily (Menachot 99b). In fact, Hashem aslos cries on one who canot learn but learns Netziv says (Heemek Devar Devarim 10:12) that diferent people have different jobs in Olam HaZeh. Some must devote their lives to learning, others to public service, others to regular jobs. A person who is in one group is almost forbidden to do the job of someone in another group. How does one know? By trial and error. If he learns for a while in high school and sees that he does not have what it takes or if he needs to do other things as well he should not go into yeshiva gedola.He is not only wasting himself and not doing his personal job but also wasting resources that could go for those who have futures as talmidei chachamim.
Choppy, Shammai lived during the time when EY had a puppet government – which had an army. Rashbi lived under an occupier and would have been very happy with an army that would have been able to throw them out (see Shabbat 33b after he left the cave for the second time). The Rambam, the Chatam Sofer and the Chafetz Chaim lived in Galut and relied on Goyish armies (although the CC advocated military service so that Jews would know what to do when we got our own state).
mdd
let me explain something to you
Israel has fought numerous wars over the course of it’s short history and most of it’s wins are miraculous, the chilonim didnt need the bachurim then and instead said it was b/c of kochi v’atzam yadi
the reason dovid, moshe and yehoshua needed an army is because you still need to do hishtadlus (its like saying why did they need to go to work in the times of dovid hamelech, it must mean Hashem doesnt provide for them)
Avi K – where on earth do you get the idea that the charedim don’t allow men to work? Who are all the rebbes, etc – chilonim? How many chareidim own businesses?
This is a subject upon which there will never be accord- so I will avoid commenting on it, except to say that i side with Yichusdik,aviK ,sam 2 and others. But on one remark I have to answer because i shows the total ignorance of history. “Chppy” asks : “why didn’t Rabbi shimon be yochai, shammai, rashi, Rambam, the chasam sofer, the chofetz chaim not need an army?”.
Does the poster not know about the Holocaust and the Russian pogroms? in the chofetz chaim’s times, a Jewish army would have been very useful. Does he not know about the killings of jews in the time of the Crusades? Rashi could have used a jewish army at that time…And there actually was a jewish army in the time of R”shimon bar jochai- it was called the army of Bar Kochva- that Rabbi Akiva called the Moshiach. So, yes ,we always needed an army-except we could not have one- now that we are back in our Eretz Hakedosha- we have a Jewish army!
Responsibility to serve – without the politics
The irony of the thread title is how politically charged the OP’s opinion is.
About “Loyal Jew” — I think the commenters here will no longer have to ignore him, retort to him, or anything else. He’s been libeling people on other sites, too, and on one of them he gave away enough personal details that I tracked him down and warned him about a new law in Israel that forbids defamation on-line. In the manner of cowards and bullies, he immediately un-subscribed.
I think the demographics went over peoples head.
As the Charedi population becomes the majority of the jewish population, more responsibility (and consequences) will come with it.
If 75% of the Israeli population is Charedi, then you cant have 75% of the people learning in Kollel, you cant have 75% of the population not serving in the army (If you try that, the other 25% will make a big stink and likely either refuse to serve or leave the country)
When they are 75% of the population they can change to law of mandatory service (as is there right in a democracy) but they also need to be prepared for the consequnces of the nearby arab population attacking and defeating a much weaker enemy.
One can attempt to solve problems now, or you can wait until its mandatory to solve them (and might actually be much harder and more damaging to the Charedi population)
Choppy,it is a different shailah.
flyer –
actually only 1% of americans are in the army and they manage fine.
Israel is the only democratic country with conscription. Israel is the only country which needs conscription.
I already wrote before that i am against the forced draft of charedi learners. But your reason begs argument: USA lives in peace at the top of the world, and don’t need defence. I haven;t worked the numbers, but i guess that the 1% of americans is much more than 100% Israelis. Israel is surrounded on all sides by enemies who want to destroy Israel. Nobody in the world wants to assist them. How will they win???
Israel cannot be compared to America.
But not of an army for apikorsum.
Really nice.
Here we have a shining example as to why we have a “three weeks” and a “nine days.”
Here we have a shining example as to why we have a “three weeks” and a “nine days.”
Agreed. The Gedolim wrote that the creation of the medina delayed the coming of Moshiach.
Agreed. The Gedolim wrote that the creation of the medina delayed the coming of Moshiach. </e>
Which Gedolim besides the Satmar Rebbe?
If the Charedi Population took a cue from the Satmar population in Israel and stop taking funds from the State, then maybe they could avoid being drafted.
When you take money from someone there is always a cost.
That’s not what I meant, and I think you know that.
Not sure what you meant by “an army for apikorsim.”
Did you mean to imply that the people living in E”Y are apikorsim, and therefore the army is for the apikorsim living in E”Y?
Or, did you mean to imply that those in the army are apikorsim?
retort to “choppy’ -as written a million times, your “gedolim’ are not my “gedolim”. you are free to follow them but we are all free to follow our gedolim!
Avi K -“As for establishing a state, on the contrary, it is an absolute obligation as stated explicitly by Ramban in his Sefer HaMitzvot (and some say Rambam does not mention it because it is included in other mitzvot or basic to the Tora as he explains in the Shorashim).”
This Din would be for a Medina and a Jewish army run acc. to the Torah. This isn’t the State of Israel, which have neither.
yekke -“Israel is the only democratic country with conscription. Israel is the only country which needs conscription.”
No, they don’t – they can hire an army, like one Frum member of the Knesset suggested.
And if you believe the more the better – might makes right -then this is the definition of “Koach V’ozem Yodi etc.” And you know what the Torah says about this?!?!
yichusdik -“If you assume that HKBH wants Torah to defend am Yisroel in every instance, why on earth would Moshe Rabeinu have to demand that Reuven Gad and chatzi Menashe would have to cross and fight, even during a time of miraculous conquest and nisim giluyim? Why didn’t Moshe ask them to sit down in a beis medresh?”
Ya’see your problem (and others) is – you so want to prove that the Zionists are right that you take texts out of context for your so-called proofs!
Let me give you a history lesson. In those times, there was the Bnei Levi whose job was to be -only to serve Hashem, this just wasn’t Avodah, but also learning of the Torah. The others in Klal Yisroel were getting a Nachla in EY. What was the purpose of this land? They were going to use this land for their Parnassa.
Now came along 2 other tribes & a half of one tribe and asked Moshe Rabbeynu for their Nachla over the Jordan river. Moshe Rabbeynu obviously with Nevuah, didn’t have a problem with this – as long as this Didn’t prevent them from doing what the rest of the Jews had to do -namely conquering the land of EY.
Had they wanted in life to just serve Hashem all day -I’m sure they wouldn’t have had to go to the army. The Rambam says this clearly -“Anybody in Klal Yisroel who wants to be like Shevet Levi can…” I’m sure the Rambam wasn’t just talking about from his time on, but from the time of Kabbolas Matan Torah!
and i hate your narrow-minded liberalness. and your unwillingness to bend your liberal narrow-mindedness to the will of gedolim. and do you really stinking think that the people who you think of as gedolim woul approve of the idfs approach to yiddishkeit. for crying out loud go stuff a flag down your throat.
As the Charedi population becomes the majority of the jewish population, more responsibility (and consequences) will come with it.
ZD, is that a boich svara (something you took out of thin air)?
the majority of America is female, therefore more responsibility falls on them? NO! (they’re even still called a minority)
total population: 0.97 male(s)/female (2011 est)
I am not taking out of thin air that Charedim will be the Majority of the jewish population, the demographicers are saying that and considering that Charedi Families have 10 kids or more and non relgious generally have 2 or less and and Dati-Leumi have 4-5 Kids.
They estimate I think 2050-2075 is when they will be the Super Majority
No, they don’t – they can hire an army, like one Frum member of the Knesset suggested.
With most of the Charedi population in Kollel and in need of governemt programs, Who is going to pay for all this stuff. Money doesnt grow on trees even if you are a rich country Like Saudi Arabia who used to be able to afford such a lifestyle
I am not taking out of thin air that Charedim will be the Majority of the jewish population, the demographicers are saying that and considering that Charedi Families have 10 kids or more and non relgious generally have 2 or less and and Dati-Leumi have 4-5 Kids.
They estimate I think 2050-2075 is when they will be the Super Majority
I see you misunderstood my question
you made a deduction that since they will be the majority (which I agree on) then more responsibility comes with it (which I don’t agree on) (see what I brought about women still being considered a “minority” even though they are a majority in the US)
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