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LU
I am firm beliver in Or LaGoyim and IMo Or LaGoyim is not everyone adding 5 mins to learning every day, but rather in our dealing with the outside world , People need to see we are Or LaGoyim by our actions and not have to tell them that
I have zero tolerance for people who do things that cause people to think jews are abusers, tax cheats or thives and I think we should all have zero tolerance for such things
I still say rather than bash the sellers, Maybe we need to look at ourselves and see what are we doing wrong, It is Elul, sometimes places to seek tshuva are hard to find and others stare us right in the face
I am not bashing the seller, but I am disturbed by how quickly people are bashing the customers.
Catch Yourself: I have yet to meet a single person who does such a thing despite the fact that I have lived in many communities and met hundreds of Orthodox Jews of all types.
As you wrote, “Without question, most Orthodox Jews are horrified by the thought of such practices, which are in direct opposition to Torah and Middos Tovos.”
Of course, Am Yisrael is not perfect and we have to continually work on ourselves. The best way to do that is through positivity and not negativity. We can best accomplish that by speaking positively of other Jews and spreading the MANY THOUSANDS of positive stories instead of harping on the occasional possible negative story. We can accomplish this by “judging others favorably” and not jumping to assume the worst.
The Bais HaMikdash will be rebuilt when we stop speaking badly about others (or to follow my own advice and speak positively – when we start speaking positively about others)
(question: why does my spell-check like the word “negativity” and not “positivity”?)
LU –
I wish I could say the same. I unfortunately am acquainted with people who don’t even realize that there is anything wrong with this practice. I have even had my protests dismissed as “lifnim m’shuras hadin!”
I do agree that the vast, overwhelming majority of people that I know would never commit such acts.
Your spellcheck is too judgmental.
“Your spellcheck is too judgmental.”
I agree!
ZD: “I am firm beliver in Or LaGoyim and IMo Or LaGoyim is not everyone adding 5 mins to learning every day, but rather in our dealing with the outside world , People need to see we are Or LaGoyim by our actions and not have to tell them that
I have zero tolerance for people who do things that cause people to think jews are abusers, tax cheats or thives and I think we should all have zero tolerance for such things”
If you are concerned about causing a chilul Hashem, you are the one causing the Chilul Hashem (and lack of ohr l’goyim) by publicizing these things on a public forum.
If you truly want to find a way to encourage people to be more yashar, the way to do that would be by starting a thread stating the halachos involved and urging people to try to follow them, but w/o including stories about people who were “over” on these halachos, but rather by including stories of people and gedolim who followed these halachos.
I heard once the following from Rav Leff: Why is it that there were proportionately more “arei miklat” on “aiver haYarden”? It is brought down that there were more murders there since the Land there had less kedusha so the people there were on a lower level.So Rav Leff’s question was, “what does that have to do with it? Arei miklat are for accidental murderers.” His answer was that people are affected by what they hear. If you constantly hear about murders, you are more likely to start to value life less and you are more likely to be negligent and cause an accidental death”.
The point is that we are affected by what we hear. So if your “taaneh” in spreading these stories is that it is l’toeles, it does not help and in fact is detrimental.
If you truly want to help, start a thread with stories of people who ARE careful in these areas.
The specific return policy in question has been found to fully comply with all laws in the sates of NY and NJ. Why such a policy exists is speculation on the part of everyone here. When the owners decide to provide a reason, then we will know. Until then all guesses are either slander against the business owner or whole neighborhoods of people.
Catchyourself- the problem is that Motzi Shem Ra is also assur, and many posts on this thread are motzi shem ra. Two wrongs don’t make a right.
Most people do not perform such acts, however people do not speak out even when they know its happening
If you knew your friend was using Wal-Mart as a “Toy Gemach” would you tell them its wrong, would you say nothing or would you say “They are a bunch of anti-semetic goyim and it doesnt matter”
If you do the latter , you are almost as guilty as the perpetrators
“The specific return policy in question has been found to fully comply with all laws in the sates of NY and NJ.”
It just came to light and never was tested in court, so how’d you come to the conclusion that the “question has been found to fully comply with all laws”?
ZD- that has nothing to do with what is going on in this thread.
And yes, I would say something.
Would you say anything if you heard someone speaking loshon hara? If not, you are almost as guilty as the perpetrators?
I find it astonishing that when someone comes out for limiting smartphone or internet use everyone praises that stand
BUT
When someone comes out against corruption all of a sudden, people say things like Loshon Harah, Mozei Shem Rav and all sorts of other excuses
What if my e-commerce store has a “no returns” policy for people from Detroit, Jackson, Miami Gardens, Birmingham, Baltimore, Memphis, New Orleans, Flint, Montgomery and Savannah?
From anywhere else in the U.S. we have a 90-day return policy. That the 10 exceptional cities are the 10 most African-American cities in the U.S. is merely coincidental. I’m taking returns from blacks in Los Angeles and other U.S. cities so I’m okay.
What if my e-commerce store has a “no returns” policy for people from Detroit, Jackson, Miami Gardens, Birmingham, Baltimore, Memphis, New Orleans, Flint, Montgomery and Savannah?
Legal. It isn’t EEOC or FHA.
Joe -“You’re a big dina d’malchusa kanai. You should be the first one upset that the company is violating dina d’malchusa by discriminating against Orthodox Jews.”
You’re also a big guy on Kol Korays! Why isn’t there a Kol Koray on these disgusting purchasing practices?
Even though you wrote later on you hold there isn’t DDM by Yidden, there are those that do hold it applies.
Btw, you could stop your Mozay Shem Ra, because this owner lives in EY. No way are they subject to US laws, only in certain situations, but this isn’t one of them!
Joseph,
Call the consumer protection agencies of each state and ask them if such a return policy, when clearly stated up front, violates any state laws. Come back to us and report, after you made those phone calls. Regarding your hypothetical case, one would have to review all applicable laws in each city and state and then we can answer you, until then, as long as any policy is enforced evenly to all across all customers (and the policy itself is legal) then they can do whatever they wish. It may be (note: I said, may, since I dont know what motivated such a policy to begin with) a bad business decision, but bad business decisions are not illegal.
Joseph: One doesn’t need a court decision to read NYS/NYC policies on refunds and exchanges to determine that the seller is following what can be easily found online AND interpreted by a reasonable individual. If you feel so sure that the policy is discriminatory, please sue the merchant in question and then let us know the outcome.
This isn’t a consumer protection/refund policy law matter. It is a civil rights matter. So it would be a matter for the Civil Rights Commission and civil rights laws, not consumer protection laws.
Joe -“This isn’t a consumer protection/refund policy law matter. It is a civil rights matter. So it would be a matter for the Civil Rights Commission and civil rights laws, not consumer protection laws.”
It isn’t either! This person lives in EY and is not subject to US laws. And anyways, this country doesn’t believe that Jews are entitled to civil rights!
See the topic -“Frum people who are unfortunately voting for Hillary Clinton”.
They do business in the US and are subject to US laws. They aren’t shipping the clothing from Israel direct to the customers. And their credit card processors are US based.
Again, it doesn’t bother me if they’re violating US anti-discrimination laws, since they’re not violating halacha. (Not even dina d’malchusa, as I previously explained.) So they can knock themselves out trampling on all the goyish civil rights laws they want. I’m just making an observation.
Joe -“They do business in the US and are subject to US laws. They aren’t shipping the clothing from Israel direct to the customers. And their credit card processors are US based.”
You’re always defending yourself, no matter how false it is!
It’s direct from the company. The CC’s start here and end over there in payment.
Saying that they’re subject to US laws – is another one of your lies!
Their California phone number is staffed until 6 pm Friday, so I’d hope they’re not answering the phone in Israel at that hour.
US buyers are billed from a US merchant on their credit card, not a foreign transaction.
And the merchandise is being shipped from a US address.
Their website is hosted on servers in Buffalo, NY. And the domain name is registered with a US registrar and its owner lists a NYC address.
Joseph is correct, they are a US based seller and the stuff comes from a US warehouse, The owners could be in Israel, but the Nexis is likely NY
Joe – File a disparate case against them!
We’ll see how far you get with the US Courts!
I’ve been there – I know what I’m talking about!
Btw, it’s against Halachah to go to Goyishe courts – the owner is Frum!
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