January 27, 2020 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #1826598
amazon give you the choice why you want to return a item either because its faulty or you found cheaper in other shops so number one can you return it stam al pi halachah? if you can can if you buy it; and when you buy it you have intention to return it is that muttar?January 27, 2020 10:17 pm at 10:17 pm #1826616
Btw, I went on a tour of an amazon warehouse and it was amazingJanuary 27, 2020 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1826619
Not sure exactly what your question is.
If you are that worried about halacha, you probably should not even be on the internet purchasing anything but that’s another issue. I don’t think anyone buys something with 100 percent certainty of sending it back unless its one of those “one-time” uses where you buy a sheitel to wear to shul for an Aufruf and then send back for some excuse. Given that the value of the item has been reduced from the moment you opened the box and tried it on, its probably not mamash ganavah from Jeff Bezos but certainly not something ethical that an ehrliche yid should be doing.January 27, 2020 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #1826621
Amazon offers at least a 30 day return policy on almost every item that permits returns for any reason. So you can use it for any reason. But that doesn’t include if you purchased it with the advance certain intention of returning it.January 28, 2020 12:08 am at 12:08 am #1826637
Unless its from a Chinese sounding company it may very well be a Frum Yid that sold you the item. Many of the American based sellers are from Brooklyn & Lakewood.January 28, 2020 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1826676
It’s part of Amazons business model to make returns so easy. There have been times when I purchased two or more pairs of shoes with the intention of keeping the one that I want and returning the rest (unworn) for a full refund. I’m under the impression that this is what they want and there’s nothing wrong with that.
I do think it’s stealing to order a pair of shoes to wear once at a wedding and then return it. (I may be wrong, reach out to Amazon and ask them directly if you plan on doing this.)
As far as the seller being from Brooklyn or Lakewood- they know very well how Amazons business model works and it’s a risk they’re obviously willing to take. (That doesn’t mean it’s OK to steal from them.)January 28, 2020 9:47 am at 9:47 am #1826670
“can you return it stam al pi halachah?”
If the seller lets then of course you can, why would you think otherwise?
If he doesnt let, of course you can’t why would you think you can lie?
” if you can can if you buy it; and when you buy it you have intention to return it is that muttar?”
If the seller lets then of course you can, why would you think otherwise?
If he doesnt let of course you can’t . why would you think you can lie?January 28, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1826724
Also note that B&H, a well known Jewish company, is famous for it’s liberal return policy. Whatever halachic issues that pertain to returns would certainly apply to them.January 28, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1826708
Haimy: ganavah is ganavah….from someone in Willy or Wuhan. Their domicile doesn’t change the ethics of taking something of value from someone else with the intention of returning it to them after having diminished its value and not compensating them for the damage you imposed.January 28, 2020 12:44 pm at 12:44 pm #1826709
Third Party sellers on Amazon contractually agree in advance to accept any return in accordance with Amazon’s liberal return policy. That contract between the customer and seller can halachicly be utilized.January 28, 2020 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1826793
“But that doesn’t include if you purchased it with the advance certain intention of returning it.”
Of course it does.
“Any reason” (your words) is any reason.
now obviously you cant lie. you cant say it was broken, if you broke it.
Years ago I asked a Best buy if I could buy a GPS planning to return it. He said of course. Lets go through the possibilities
1) If I like it, lose the receipt, forget ot return it, etc theyve made a sale
2) IF I damage it they wont take it back
wooooorst case I return it in the condition I got it so theyll just sell it to someone else.
win win win
Bottom line: these discussions are absurd. It is up to the seller. Ask them they all have a “contact us” link on Amazon ask them If they let then you can if they don’t then you cannotJanuary 28, 2020 3:15 pm at 3:15 pm #1826797
if you return a product USED to a amazom seller he takes more than a 100% loss so if your returning a used item you bought for a wedding of for no reason its total geneiva 100%January 28, 2020 9:32 pm at 9:32 pm #1826968
“if you return a product USED to a amazom seller he takes more than a 100% loss”
Im not sure what this means? They give away used products for free? shucks, I’ve been over paying
“so if your returning a used item you bought for a wedding of for no reason its total geneiva 100%”
Even if he allows you too?January 28, 2020 9:33 pm at 9:33 pm #1826950
Gadol Hatorah: Obviously if it’s against halacha then it would very possibly make no difference which zipcode it came from. The fact is that halacha is not so clear in this situation. I’m suggesting (being an Amazon seller myself) that before you take advantage of Amazon’s liberal return policy, you consider the fact that you may very well be hurting another frum Yid. And Yes Mr. Gadol, I consider treating a fellow Yid as family & not as any other fellow citizen, & therefore have more of a reason to go beyond the letter of the law.January 28, 2020 10:28 pm at 10:28 pm #1826948
How is it more that a 100% loss?January 29, 2020 12:24 am at 12:24 am #1827019
Its more than a 100% loss. Seller needs to add money to get his used item that he can’t sell back fro Amazon. So he is not only losing his original money he has to lay out more money.January 29, 2020 1:28 am at 1:28 am #1827023
why do peopl make such bizzare assertions when it comes to this topic
“to get his used item that he can’t sell back fro Amazon”
since when can’t you sell used items on Amazon ?
( and thats aside the fact that there are grades of “used” memah nafshach if it is notably used, then why accept the return? and if it is not then sell it used :”like new” which sells for (almost ?) the same price as new items )January 29, 2020 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1827262
To buy something in order to return is 100% geneivah
To buy something and use once is 100% geneivah
To buy something and claim that returning is no issue due to policy is 100% geneivah
You can spin things until your head spins but it wont change the reality. Cut it out already.January 29, 2020 7:23 pm at 7:23 pm #1827286
Haimy: Not clear what you are saying. If you agree its unethical to purchase an item on Amazon with the prior intent to use it briefly and then return it for some reason, than why would you (as an Amazon seller) suggest it might be “OK” or somehow less problematic if the Seller incurring the loss from your action is a goy versus a yid?? I would think a yid would be especially careful as to no create the visuals of a chilul hashem when dealing with a goiyeshe dealer.January 29, 2020 8:52 pm at 8:52 pm #1827307
Halachas regarding monetary dealings (as well as just about everything else) are different when interacting with a yehudi versus an aino yehudi (as well as between a Shomer Shabbos versus a non Shomer Shabbos.) What’s difficult to grasp about that general fact?January 29, 2020 9:34 pm at 9:34 pm #1827329
Apologies to Haimy: Reb yosef reminds us its “ok” to cheat an “aino yehudi” seller on Amazon by engaging in unethical behavior which is clearly assur. We should demand that Amazon immediately require all sellers to post whether or not they have milah and are strictly shomrei shabbos so yidden purchasing from them know whether its ok to purchase their stuff and then send it back for a full refund after diminishing its value.
Mi Kamocha yisroelJanuary 29, 2020 9:35 pm at 9:35 pm #1827321
“To buy something in order to return is 100% geneivah”
Even if the seller allows it?
“To buy something and use once is 100% geneivah”
Even if the seller allows it?
“To buy something and claim that returning is no issue due to policy is 100% geneivah”
I dont understand, the so who is violating geneiva the seller for setting up the policy? why cant the seller follow the policy he enacted?
“You can spin things until your head spins but it wont change the reality. Cut it out already’
The reality is simple, no spin needed. it is up to the seller to determine if he is willing to accept the return . period. It is not up to you, sorry Making up your own illogical fake halachas won’t change thatJanuary 29, 2020 9:55 pm at 9:55 pm #1827337
Ubiq – you’re right but you’re wrong. You are arguing that a return is a return and if aseller doesn’t want returns he shouldn’t take them. The “other side” is saying that the returns are in place to encourage sales for people who made a purchase that didnt work out. And *additionally* if they knew people were using the return policy as a way to AVOID a sale they wouldn’t approve. So you disagree saying you’ve had that conversation with sellers and further, even without they’re consent you disagree anyway.
Im not sure how yoy can think sellers would agree with you, but that’s besides the point. I was just trying to unkink the argument. To you a return is a return. Not everyone sees it that way. So the seller “taking returns” is not a given that they want tho take areturn you made to avoid a sale.January 30, 2020 8:10 am at 8:10 am #1827364
This has become just another one of those seemingly endless debates on the same point where a subset of posters apply a halachic analysis to how yidden should behave in their daily lives, with a specific reference to their interaction with goyim. From the other side of the debate are those who are viewing the issue from the lens of a more common sense, non-legal perspective which might subjectively be called “ethical”. Bottom line: Just because something might arguably be “OK” al pi halacha, that doesn’t mean its something that SHOULD be done.
Yes, most Amazon sellers will allow returns for ANY reason (or no reason) but exploiting that policy to use something without payment is not how some of us believe a Jew should behave. YWN frequently highlights stories about yidden going to great lengths to return lost items to their owners (yidden and goyim) and what a big kiddush hashem it was. In some cases, it was a yid risking his/her life to save a goy and what a kiddush hashem it was. I see it no less of a kiddush hashem for yidden to act ethically in their financial interactions with goyim (and thereby forego opportunities to gain monetary benefits such as the Amazon scenario). If you don’t want to call it a kiddush hashem to show that yidden are ethical and don’t engage in the stereotypical behavior that forms the basis for long-standing anti-semiotic tropes, than just call it “the right thing to do”.January 30, 2020 8:11 am at 8:11 am #1827339
GHD: Read all my posts on this thread rather than just the last one that you responded to.
Ubiq: NO seller allows that (to purchase a product with the advance intention to use it and then return it.)
Btw, Amazon often closes accounts of customers who return too many items, and bans them from opening a new account, even if all the returns fell within the allowed Amazon return policy.January 30, 2020 9:27 am at 9:27 am #1827386
“Ubiq: NO seller allows that (to purchase a product with the advance intention to use it and then return it.)”
Then what is the hava amina that you could?
This discussion is absurd. Ask the seller. IF they dont let then you cant if they do then you can.
You have to ask
As I mentioned earlier The one time I asked the question The seller expressed surprise, of course they let .
Most of the time either 1) the buyer likes it , forget to return it, damages it or loses receipt (latter wouldnt be relevant online) in which case hurray they made a sale
wooooooorst case it is returned in original condition in which case loss is minimal (just repackaging whcih is less than the profit on the sale) and they sell it to someone else .
Obviously not all sellers would agree with the above, you have to ask and certainly none would want everybody to do this (see reply to GH below)
“The “other side” is saying that the returns are in place to encourage sales for people who made a purchase that didnt work out.”
There is no other side. A seller is not obligated to accept returns. Once a sale is done it is done. The seller can opt to allow returns. The seller can allow all returns for any reason or restrict returns for certain reasons or to certain people or certain days . If the seller only allows returns from people named Gimpel it is stealing to claim your name is Gimpel and you can return. If the seller allows returns for any reason it is not stealing to return for any reason
“So you disagree saying you’ve had that conversation with sellers”
It was one seller, I’m not saying all sellers agree with that. I’m saying you have to ask the seller. “Hi I purchased this product because I needed it for xyz, now I don’t need it anymore, can I return it”
If they say yes then you can, if not not. I cannot fathom how there is any disagreement on this. Amazon has a contact seller link. ASK THEM not the coffee room.
“but exploiting that policy to use something without payment is not how some of us believe a Jew should behave. ”
This is obviously true but the question was “is it muttar” not is there a lemalah mi meshuras hadin not to do this.
The answer to the question is it muttar is simply: It is up to the sellerJanuary 30, 2020 11:04 am at 11:04 am #1827395
A seller is not obligated to accept returns. Once a sale is done it is done. The seller can opt to allow returns. The seller can allow all returns for any reason or restrict returns for certain reasons or to certain people or certain days .
Ubiquitin, I don’t understand. If I buy something from a store and the receipt says “Returns within 30 days with receipt,” the seller can decide tomorrow that he doesn’t want to take it back?January 30, 2020 11:42 am at 11:42 am #1827408
Meno: Yes. Some stores allow “returns within 30 days” but require the item be in its original UNUSED condition. Sure, they will accept a torn plastic wrapping etc. but if it is clear the item has been used and there is no defect, most will not accept returns or charge a 15-25 percent “restocking fee”. Not only Amazon, but Target, Kohls and Nordstrom’s have announced they are tracking “repeat returners” and denying offenders return privileges where they have abused the privilegeJanuary 30, 2020 12:33 pm at 12:33 pm #1827434
No of course not
but he didn’t have to write “Returns within 30 days with receipt,” he could write “no returns” he can write “Returns only for people named Gimpel” He can write “Returns only if unused ”
It is his policy if you are unsure as to the parameters of the return policy, ask him. , dont ask us what the sellers return policy isJanuary 30, 2020 1:21 pm at 1:21 pm #1827463
(To be clear I’m not saying “Returns within 30 days with receipt,” = returns for any reason. I’m saying ask him under what conditions can you return it)January 30, 2020 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #1827516
It is clear (and no surprise) that many of the posts here state facts that are not facts at all, but assumptions or guesses that the poster wishes were true, just to make their point. Anyone that actually sells on Amazon knows and has surely personally experienced the real facts.
I cannot give all of the precise details, because I also don’t personally sell on Amazon, though my son, neighbors, and friends do. But here is what I know:
– Most sellers are using FBA – Fullfillment by Amazon, which means that they own the product and send it to Amazon’s warehouse, and Amazon does the shipping. However, when you return it, it goes back to the Seller, not to Amazon.
– The return policy you are all referring to is set by AMAZON, not by the Sellers. Sellers do not have an option to refuse to allow or accept your return.
– Once an item is returned to you, you can send it back to Amazon again (at your own expense) if it is still in brand new condition. Even if the item is in new condition, 2-3 months could have passed since the item was originally sold, and the market price (for example on the latest electronic items) could have dropped drastically.
– Too often the item will be greatly devalued, broken, missing parts, or even totally swapped with a fraudulent replacement. In some cases you can fight with Amazon for a refund, but that too is an expense.
– If it is no longer brand new, you usually have to sell it elsewhere (like on eBay) for a lot less. Rarely is it possible or worthwhile to sell used items on Amazon.
So even though Amazon forces sellers to accept returns in order to make their site popular, each return inevitably causes some loss to the seller. If you choose to blame that loss on amazon and say that you are doing nothing wrong, I can’t say for sure that you are a thief. Add to that the likelihood that even Amazon’s generous policy might not allow you to buy items with the specific intention of using it and returning it. So if I told you in advance that a huge percentage of the sellers of certain items are frum Jews, would you still feel comfortable doing it anyway? If you were able to ask the sellers permission (not Amazon) they would all forbid it, 100%.
It is not helpful bringing a proof from store xyz that gave you permission to do it. The manager of that store is not personally taking a loss on your return. Also, in a regular store, the percentage of people that return things for no valid reason (meaning not defective or the wrong size etc…) is far lower than on Amazon. Amazon Sellers know that you typically have to factor in at least a 30% return rate into your business calculations.January 30, 2020 6:53 pm at 6:53 pm #1827526
“– The return policy you are all referring to is set by AMAZON, not by the Sellers. Sellers do not have an option to refuse to allow or accept your return.”
First of all the seller has the right to not sell on amazon . which really is the end of this reply.
but just to take it a bit further
This notion that amazon sets the return policy with no wiggle room for anything sold on their site isn’t true (have you never bought stuff on Amazon, Ive bought from third party sellers have them arrive broken and its a nightmare to return. what are you talking about? Has this never happened to you I understand you don’y sell on Aamzon it sounds like you don’t buy either )
Here is the verbatim description from Amazon website : both for those fulfilled by amazon and those not
“Amazon.com Return Policy
Items shipped from Amazon.com, including Amazon Warehouse, can be returned within 30 days of receipt of shipment in most cases. Some products have different policies or requirements associated with them.”
“Seller Return Policy
When you order from a seller that fulfills and ships its own inventory (also called a third party seller), your return is sent back to the seller instead of Amazon.com. While most sellers offer a returns policy equivalent to Amazon.com’s, some seller returns policies may vary. You can view the return policy of the seller before you purchase an item by viewing the Returns and Refunds Policy section of the seller profile page. To view the seller’s return policy, once you’ve ordered, …”
furthermore when you return an item, you have to select a reason for return. Obviously it isnt muttar to lie. so if your reason isn’t there then halachicly you cant return it. If your reason is there and the seller willingly sells on amazon, then you can return it.
Of course if the seller is being forced at gunpoint to sell on amazon and accept a return policy he doesn’t like then that is worng. I didnt realize that that was the discussion. Though admittedly it is more logical than anyone having any difficulty with my non-controversial point of “ask the seller if they allow the return”
Most of your other points are similarly irrelevant or untrue
for example “It is not helpful bringing a proof from store xyz that gave you permission to do it. ”
It is very helpful, as it illustrates that the statement “NO seller allows that (to purchase a product with the advance intention to use it and then return it.)” is untrue. Of course as I EXPLICITLY SAID many times this can’t be generalized to all sellers. You have to ask the seller in questionJanuary 31, 2020 12:16 am at 12:16 am #1827609
Apparently you dont sell things for a living. No one is business will be accepting of someone buying something knowing he will return it before he bought it or all the other similar permutations. The seller only is agreeing to returns for cases where these was a valid reason that was not clearly understood before. Trying to game the system though is geneivah.January 31, 2020 12:17 am at 12:17 am #1827611
Genius. Just ask AlexaJanuary 31, 2020 12:18 am at 12:18 am #1827613
Is it possible to contact any third-party seller on Amazon prior to making a purchase?January 31, 2020 8:17 am at 8:17 am #1827652
“Is it possible to contact any third-party seller on Amazon prior to making a purchase?”
Easily! its two clicks right next to “add to cart” is a hyperlink with seller’s name and satisfaction score cick the name and then in the upper right is a button “ask the seller a question” it is safe to click it will not unleash a virus, and it will not redirect your question to the coffee room.
“Apparently you dont sell things for a living.”
” No one is business will be accepting of someone buying something knowing he will return it before he bought it or all the other similar permutations.”
False. (this is obviously false I’m sure youve seen sales advertised as “risk free guarantee return within 30 days for any reason” If you aren’t sure what’s included in “any reason” ask them. )
” The seller only is agreeing to returns for cases where these was a valid reason that was not clearly understood before.”
Depends on the seller, you’d have to ask
“Trying to game the system though is geneivah.”
It depends what you mean by “game the system” But by definition if the seller allows it isnt geneivah . again
BTW this is one of my favorite topics, I’m not sure why people get so riled up and frazzled. What I’m saying is completely logical and and not really debatable Here it is again if you have a question about a return : ASK THE SELLER. I’m not sure if anyone actually disagrees with that. But for some reason they react as if they are arguing
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