Reward and Punishment

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  • #596885
    s2021
    Member

    What happens to all the righteous “god Fearing” Non-Jews after their lifetimes? There are so many who work to be honest, pray, develope themselves and come close to “god”… Are they rewarded? Is there punishment? What is their purpose?

    #767005
    Health
    Participant

    What do you think happens to goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos of Bnai Noach?

    #767006
    Pac-Man
    Member

    They are rewarded if they kept ALL the 7 mitzvos of Bnei Noach.

    #767007
    Pac-Man
    Member

    If they violated even one they are chayiv misa.

    #767008
    s2021
    Member

    Thats what Im asking- Is there reward- and WHAT?

    #767009
    Shrek
    Member

    what are you worried about? I’m sure G-d has it under control.

    #767010
    Health
    Participant

    If they keep all their 7 mitzvos they get Olam Haboh.

    #767011
    aries2756
    Participant

    s2021, I don’t get your question. They are also Hashem’s children and they also have to give a din v’chesbon when they die. Do you think that Hashem does not have an accounting with the rest of his creation?

    #767012
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m pretty sure they are not Hashem’s children.

    The mishna says ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????

    #767013
    s2021
    Member

    aries- so apparently u do get my question.

    Olam Habah- So they keep 7 mitzvos and they get to hang around with the rest of us for eternity? Is there a Mechitzah? Or a separate Olam Habah for non jews? 😉

    #767014
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    There are many levels of Olam Haba. They won’t be in our Mechitza.

    #767015

    I’m not sure a full discussion of this is wise in a public forum.

    #767016
    charliehall
    Participant

    ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???

    This is in Rambam, Mishneh Torah Hilchot Tshuvah 3:5, based on Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:1 and BT Sanhedrin 105a.

    #767017

    I agree with Haleivi’s post; this is how its explained in Zohar. Also the Gemara says “Ein HKB”H Mikapeiach Sechar Kol Berya”; obviously Non Jews are included in “Kol Berya”. Its also only logical that if Non Jews are punished in the World to come for evil behavior they have committed, then on the same token, they will obviously also be likewise rewarded for good deeds they have done in this world. The Midrashim are filled with Ma’amarim which discuss how different gentiles were rewarded by Hashem for good deeds they have done vs. Hashem and vs. fellow gentiles.

    #767018
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    I agree with chocandpatience.

    #767019
    aries2756
    Participant

    popa_bar_abba, are you saying that they were created by some other G-d? As far as I know there is only one!

    #767020
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Aries:

    If you make a cake, is the cake now your “child”?

    #767021
    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, I’m flattered but you can hardly compare me to G-d 🙂

    #767022
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m sorry, I don’t think we are communicating very well.

    The idea “???? ??”, is certainly reserved to members of our nation. The passuk says, “???? ??? ?? ???-???” and is referring to us.

    The mishna in pirkey avos says “?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????”, and is certainly attempting to distinguish us from the nations.

    It is certainly true that G-d created all humans, but so did He create trees and leopards, and stones. G-d does not consider them his “????”.

    #767023
    aries2756
    Participant

    No we are not. Did he tell you that personally? How do you know who Hashem considers his children or not? WE are his chosen people but I don’t recall that Hashem does not consider all other people his children. He is the father of ALL people and all children. And we can not compare any human to animals, trees or stones. Each were created at different times for a reason. Hashem’s reason and we as human beings can’t begin to understand Hashem’s reasons. But we do know that He created all humans, and we are ALL his children and he has a plan for everyone.

    He gave all his children the opportunity to choose to follow his Torah and become the Chosen nation but ONLY we made the right choice and only WE became the chosen nation. But HE did NOT eliminate the rest of the nations or the rest of his children nor the rest of the human race. They all have a purpose and they are all part of his plan. Just because they are NOT his chosen people he does not deny that they are his children.

    #767024
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    No, you are wrong. The mishna is abundantly clear. I am sorry if this mishna offends you. Perhaps you can open a thread asking why Hashem loves us more.

    #767025

    Aries: We became Hashem’s children upon becoming Hashem’s chosen people. This is a posuk in Chumash as popa correctly quoted. Of course Hashem has a plan and purpose for all other nations of the world which He created, [as I tried explaining in my above post that there is definitely given sechar v’oinesh in the world to come for the deeds of all humans in this world], however, this doesn’t translate into being children of Hashem. As an aside, if we c”v sin to Hashem, we may also be considered Avadim/slaves and not Banim/children, as we recite in the davening of yomim nora’im “Im K’Banim..Im K’Avadim”.

    #767026
    aries2756
    Participant

    What exactly does the Mishneh say about gentiles?

    #767027
    deiyezooger
    Member

    The gemarah in Sanhedrin tells us how Inkulis communicated with Bilom and asked him what his punishment is, so while PBA is right that they are not Hashems kids there sure is din v’cheshbon.

    #767028
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    The previous line states, “???? ??? ????? ????”.

    It is a macholokes (I believe in the rishonim) if this refers only to us, or to everyone.

    #767029

    DZ: Likewise there are many Midrashim which state that there was reward given by Hashem to gentiles for good deeds which they have done (aside from sheva mitzvos binei Noach).

    Aries: Hashem has compassion for all his creations, as the posuk says “V’Rachamuv Al Kol Maasuv”; although compassion may not necessarily be considered love.

    #767030
    aries2756
    Participant

    You have not addressed my request. Please show me in the mishna as you commented where it says that the gentiles are NOT his children and only the Jews are his children. Otherwise you are taking a comment out of context to prove your point. Yes we might be referred to as his children but that doesn’t necessarily flip to the opposite side that Hashem says that we are his ONLY children.

    #767031
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, you are right.

    #767032

    Aries: You need to go to Yeshiva in order to properly learn a posuk Chumash and Mishna.

    #767033
    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, I don’t NEED to be right, but if you want to argue with me for the sake of arguing as you choose to do on occasion I will take the bait (on occasion). I don’t like it, but sometimes I give in to it. I would be happy to know of the Mishneh that proves your point, however I don’t like to be baited by ridiculous comparisons like if I baked a cake would it be my child.

    If you want to have an intelligent conversation we can and I am happy to learn from anyone, but if you want to go speak gibberish I will call you on it.

    #767034

    Aries: Stubborness runs in your family.

    #767035
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Aries,

    The sign reads, “Turn Right”, but it doesn’t say not to go left!!

    #767036
    deiyezooger
    Member

    The Mishnah in Avos first starts with Adam, saying ???? ??? ????? ????

    and as the Tosfas Yom Tov says that refares even to non jews (as known that the word “Adam” meens even non jews, while “Ha’Adam” meens only jews). The mishnah then goes on to add ?????? “?????” ?????? ???? ?????

    so I believe anybody who can learn a simple Mishnah understands that that is exlusivly for jews.

    #767037
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    You got the Adam/Ha’adam thing switched, and that’s precisely why the Maharal says that it does not apply to them.

    #767038
    ZeesKite
    Participant

    aries2756:

    Kindly permit me to join the fray. In most other issues I don’t come close to your ankles. That’s why I’d NEVER differ from your priceless pieces. Actually masterpieces. Really. However when it comes to Torah issues, I must stand up for k’vod Shamaim. Remaining silent is tantamount to an admission. We are dealing here with one of the principles of the Torah. The issues of Am HaNivchar, and the attacks of the Umos Haolam to dismiss these basics.

    The Torah says clearly and unequivocally ???? ??? ??’ ???????, clearly and exclusively US! Another pasuk in Vayikra: ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??. Another: ??? ????? ?????. Torah Nevieim and Ksuvim are FULL with such pesukim. Again – we share the same planet, breathe the same air, yet dynamically separate. ??? ????? ?????. We get along because that’s the setup HaShem prepared for us, but that’s where it ends.

    Read from Rabbi Miller’s sefer Awake My Glory – where he deals with this issue at length.

    #767039
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant
    #767040
    aries2756
    Participant

    PBA, thank you. I appreciate that and I will take the time to read through it carefully. It is so much better than comparing children to rocks and cake. It would have been so much better to start this way and not HAVE to end this way. I do so much prefer to respect you than argue with you.

    #767041
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Aries:

    I am sorry.

    I had not meant to be mean or snarky. That is why my first post on the issue began with “I’m pretty sure…”, which was my way of being non-confrontational.

    In my first post, I cited the mishna, which I assumed everyone was familiar with enough to find it, or google its significance.

    I understood your response “are you saying that they were created by some other G-d?”, to be ignoring the mishna, and proceeding with logic, which is why I responded with logic, (the cake).

    I now understand that you were simply asking how I knew to read the mishna as I was reading it.

    So I was right. We weren’t communicating very well. :-))

    And BTW, I would have picked up that old lady by the scruff of her neck and tossed her over the mechitza. (Once we’re fighting anyway.)

    #767042

    Aries, I’m sorry for butting in and attacking you,(I mistakingly took it personal, and thought you were deliberately questioning the validity of the posuk Chumash and Mishna in an issue which is one of the principal foundations of Judaism); I apologize.

    #767043
    aries2756
    Participant

    Apologies are always accepted, thank you both, all is good we are all friends here and I would like to keep it that way. Please keep in mind that we are in mixed company and not everyone can quote Mishna and Gemara nor do we ALL know exactly what former and current “bochurim” are referring to. But we are always willing to learn what you are willing to share with an open heart. Obviously more so when it is intended to share knowledge than just to be right. So I, as I am sure many others, are happy to learn something new when it is presented in the proper format. Thanks again.

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