Reward and Punishment
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- This topic has 39 replies, 13 voices, and was last updated 12 years ago by aries2756.
May 15, 2011 2:47 am at 2:47 am #596885
What happens to all the righteous “god Fearing” Non-Jews after their lifetimes? There are so many who work to be honest, pray, develope themselves and come close to “god”… Are they rewarded? Is there punishment? What is their purpose?May 15, 2011 3:53 am at 3:53 am #767005HealthParticipant
What do you think happens to goyim who keep the 7 mitzvos of Bnai Noach?May 15, 2011 3:54 am at 3:54 am #767006Pac-ManMember
They are rewarded if they kept ALL the 7 mitzvos of Bnei Noach.May 15, 2011 3:54 am at 3:54 am #767007Pac-ManMember
If they violated even one they are chayiv misa.May 15, 2011 3:55 am at 3:55 am #767008
Thats what Im asking- Is there reward- and WHAT?May 15, 2011 3:56 am at 3:56 am #767009ShrekMember
what are you worried about? I’m sure G-d has it under control.May 15, 2011 4:00 am at 4:00 am #767010HealthParticipant
If they keep all their 7 mitzvos they get Olam Haboh.May 15, 2011 4:01 am at 4:01 am #767011
s2021, I don’t get your question. They are also Hashem’s children and they also have to give a din v’chesbon when they die. Do you think that Hashem does not have an accounting with the rest of his creation?May 15, 2011 4:04 am at 4:04 am #767012
I’m pretty sure they are not Hashem’s children.
The mishna says ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????May 15, 2011 4:23 am at 4:23 am #767013
aries- so apparently u do get my question.
Olam Habah- So they keep 7 mitzvos and they get to hang around with the rest of us for eternity? Is there a Mechitzah? Or a separate Olam Habah for non jews? 😉May 15, 2011 6:34 am at 6:34 am #767014
There are many levels of Olam Haba. They won’t be in our Mechitza.May 15, 2011 2:23 pm at 2:23 pm #767015chocandpatienceMember
I’m not sure a full discussion of this is wise in a public forum.May 15, 2011 3:01 pm at 3:01 pm #767016charliehallParticipant
????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ????? ???
This is in Rambam, Mishneh Torah Hilchot Tshuvah 3:5, based on Tosefta Sanhedrin 13:1 and BT Sanhedrin 105a.May 15, 2011 3:47 pm at 3:47 pm #767017
I agree with Haleivi’s post; this is how its explained in Zohar. Also the Gemara says “Ein HKB”H Mikapeiach Sechar Kol Berya”; obviously Non Jews are included in “Kol Berya”. Its also only logical that if Non Jews are punished in the World to come for evil behavior they have committed, then on the same token, they will obviously also be likewise rewarded for good deeds they have done in this world. The Midrashim are filled with Ma’amarim which discuss how different gentiles were rewarded by Hashem for good deeds they have done vs. Hashem and vs. fellow gentiles.May 15, 2011 3:48 pm at 3:48 pm #767018☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant
I agree with chocandpatience.May 15, 2011 9:29 pm at 9:29 pm #767019
popa_bar_abba, are you saying that they were created by some other G-d? As far as I know there is only one!May 15, 2011 9:53 pm at 9:53 pm #767020
If you make a cake, is the cake now your “child”?May 15, 2011 10:09 pm at 10:09 pm #767021
PBA, I’m flattered but you can hardly compare me to G-d 🙂May 15, 2011 10:16 pm at 10:16 pm #767022
I’m sorry, I don’t think we are communicating very well.
The idea “???? ??”, is certainly reserved to members of our nation. The passuk says, “???? ??? ?? ???-???” and is referring to us.
The mishna in pirkey avos says “?????? ????? ?????? ???? ?????”, and is certainly attempting to distinguish us from the nations.
It is certainly true that G-d created all humans, but so did He create trees and leopards, and stones. G-d does not consider them his “????”.May 15, 2011 11:09 pm at 11:09 pm #767023
No we are not. Did he tell you that personally? How do you know who Hashem considers his children or not? WE are his chosen people but I don’t recall that Hashem does not consider all other people his children. He is the father of ALL people and all children. And we can not compare any human to animals, trees or stones. Each were created at different times for a reason. Hashem’s reason and we as human beings can’t begin to understand Hashem’s reasons. But we do know that He created all humans, and we are ALL his children and he has a plan for everyone.
He gave all his children the opportunity to choose to follow his Torah and become the Chosen nation but ONLY we made the right choice and only WE became the chosen nation. But HE did NOT eliminate the rest of the nations or the rest of his children nor the rest of the human race. They all have a purpose and they are all part of his plan. Just because they are NOT his chosen people he does not deny that they are his children.May 15, 2011 11:12 pm at 11:12 pm #767024
No, you are wrong. The mishna is abundantly clear. I am sorry if this mishna offends you. Perhaps you can open a thread asking why Hashem loves us more.May 15, 2011 11:46 pm at 11:46 pm #767025
Aries: We became Hashem’s children upon becoming Hashem’s chosen people. This is a posuk in Chumash as popa correctly quoted. Of course Hashem has a plan and purpose for all other nations of the world which He created, [as I tried explaining in my above post that there is definitely given sechar v’oinesh in the world to come for the deeds of all humans in this world], however, this doesn’t translate into being children of Hashem. As an aside, if we c”v sin to Hashem, we may also be considered Avadim/slaves and not Banim/children, as we recite in the davening of yomim nora’im “Im K’Banim..Im K’Avadim”.May 16, 2011 12:08 am at 12:08 am #767026
What exactly does the Mishneh say about gentiles?May 16, 2011 12:10 am at 12:10 am #767027deiyezoogerMember
The gemarah in Sanhedrin tells us how Inkulis communicated with Bilom and asked him what his punishment is, so while PBA is right that they are not Hashems kids there sure is din v’cheshbon.May 16, 2011 12:11 am at 12:11 am #767028
The previous line states, “???? ??? ????? ????”.
It is a macholokes (I believe in the rishonim) if this refers only to us, or to everyone.May 16, 2011 12:22 am at 12:22 am #767029
DZ: Likewise there are many Midrashim which state that there was reward given by Hashem to gentiles for good deeds which they have done (aside from sheva mitzvos binei Noach).
Aries: Hashem has compassion for all his creations, as the posuk says “V’Rachamuv Al Kol Maasuv”; although compassion may not necessarily be considered love.May 16, 2011 12:25 am at 12:25 am #767030
You have not addressed my request. Please show me in the mishna as you commented where it says that the gentiles are NOT his children and only the Jews are his children. Otherwise you are taking a comment out of context to prove your point. Yes we might be referred to as his children but that doesn’t necessarily flip to the opposite side that Hashem says that we are his ONLY children.May 16, 2011 12:28 am at 12:28 am #767031
Ok, you are right.May 16, 2011 12:33 am at 12:33 am #767032
Aries: You need to go to Yeshiva in order to properly learn a posuk Chumash and Mishna.May 16, 2011 12:36 am at 12:36 am #767033
PBA, I don’t NEED to be right, but if you want to argue with me for the sake of arguing as you choose to do on occasion I will take the bait (on occasion). I don’t like it, but sometimes I give in to it. I would be happy to know of the Mishneh that proves your point, however I don’t like to be baited by ridiculous comparisons like if I baked a cake would it be my child.
If you want to have an intelligent conversation we can and I am happy to learn from anyone, but if you want to go speak gibberish I will call you on it.May 16, 2011 12:37 am at 12:37 am #767034
Aries: Stubborness runs in your family.May 16, 2011 1:38 am at 1:38 am #767035
The sign reads, “Turn Right”, but it doesn’t say not to go left!!May 16, 2011 2:31 am at 2:31 am #767036deiyezoogerMember
The Mishnah in Avos first starts with Adam, saying ???? ??? ????? ????
and as the Tosfas Yom Tov says that refares even to non jews (as known that the word “Adam” meens even non jews, while “Ha’Adam” meens only jews). The mishnah then goes on to add ?????? “?????” ?????? ???? ?????
so I believe anybody who can learn a simple Mishnah understands that that is exlusivly for jews.May 16, 2011 3:33 am at 3:33 am #767037
You got the Adam/Ha’adam thing switched, and that’s precisely why the Maharal says that it does not apply to them.May 16, 2011 4:57 am at 4:57 am #767038ZeesKiteParticipant
Kindly permit me to join the fray. In most other issues I don’t come close to your ankles. That’s why I’d NEVER differ from your priceless pieces. Actually masterpieces. Really. However when it comes to Torah issues, I must stand up for k’vod Shamaim. Remaining silent is tantamount to an admission. We are dealing here with one of the principles of the Torah. The issues of Am HaNivchar, and the attacks of the Umos Haolam to dismiss these basics.
The Torah says clearly and unequivocally ???? ??? ??’ ???????, clearly and exclusively US! Another pasuk in Vayikra: ?????? ???? ?? ????? ????? ??. Another: ??? ????? ?????. Torah Nevieim and Ksuvim are FULL with such pesukim. Again – we share the same planet, breathe the same air, yet dynamically separate. ??? ????? ?????. We get along because that’s the setup HaShem prepared for us, but that’s where it ends.
Read from Rabbi Miller’s sefer Awake My Glory – where he deals with this issue at length.May 16, 2011 5:12 am at 5:12 am #767039
Behold, I bring you, the mishna with all the meforshim. Note well the ?????? ??? ???
http://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%A9%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%90%D7%91%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%92_%D7%99%D7%93#.D7.A4.D7.99.D7.A8.D7.95.D7.A9_.D7.A2.D7.99.D7.A7.D7.A8_.D7.AA.D7.95.D7.A1.D7.A4.D7.95.D7.AA_.D7.99.D7.95.D7.9D_.D7.98.D7.95.D7.91May 16, 2011 3:00 pm at 3:00 pm #767040
PBA, thank you. I appreciate that and I will take the time to read through it carefully. It is so much better than comparing children to rocks and cake. It would have been so much better to start this way and not HAVE to end this way. I do so much prefer to respect you than argue with you.May 16, 2011 3:21 pm at 3:21 pm #767041
I am sorry.
I had not meant to be mean or snarky. That is why my first post on the issue began with “I’m pretty sure…”, which was my way of being non-confrontational.
In my first post, I cited the mishna, which I assumed everyone was familiar with enough to find it, or google its significance.
I understood your response “are you saying that they were created by some other G-d?”, to be ignoring the mishna, and proceeding with logic, which is why I responded with logic, (the cake).
I now understand that you were simply asking how I knew to read the mishna as I was reading it.
So I was right. We weren’t communicating very well. :-))
And BTW, I would have picked up that old lady by the scruff of her neck and tossed her over the mechitza. (Once we’re fighting anyway.)May 16, 2011 3:38 pm at 3:38 pm #767042
Aries, I’m sorry for butting in and attacking you,(I mistakingly took it personal, and thought you were deliberately questioning the validity of the posuk Chumash and Mishna in an issue which is one of the principal foundations of Judaism); I apologize.May 17, 2011 4:17 am at 4:17 am #767043
Apologies are always accepted, thank you both, all is good we are all friends here and I would like to keep it that way. Please keep in mind that we are in mixed company and not everyone can quote Mishna and Gemara nor do we ALL know exactly what former and current “bochurim” are referring to. But we are always willing to learn what you are willing to share with an open heart. Obviously more so when it is intended to share knowledge than just to be right. So I, as I am sure many others, are happy to learn something new when it is presented in the proper format. Thanks again.
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