June 5, 2016 2:39 pm at 2:39 pm #1154727
Giving kids medication for school is ridiculous. The school system is ridiculous. Children are not meant to be confined to a desk for hours at a time.June 5, 2016 3:50 pm at 3:50 pm #1154728
I agree with reb yid. Although for extreme cases where the child is completely non functional, a full eval is in order. (Even then I have seen very competent doctors miss the mark with their diagnosis.)
I feel that a lot of psychological, emotional and behavior issues are not understood and treatments for them are administered on a touch and feel basis.June 5, 2016 3:52 pm at 3:52 pm #1154729frumnotyeshivishParticipant
Giving medication that does more good than harm is obligatory. Not giving medication that does more harm than good is obligatory (in a general sense for both). Most of the arguments on these topics are regarding what does more harm than good.Usually, science is good at observing. Usually, doctors are good at interpreting. Usually, doing what is usual is what God wants.June 6, 2016 1:13 am at 1:13 am #1154730
Some people live in a very small box. They have no ability to think for themselves.June 6, 2016 5:25 am at 5:25 am #1154731
There are some kids that can’t sit through shul.
They can’t daven.
They can’t even bensch.
Meds aren’t just for school.
It’s for life. To be able to function, relate to others, be able to sit long enough to hear what another has to say.
Please don’t discount the benefits of meds.
I’m not saying it solves every problem, but it can change life from a miserable “failing out of school”, having no friends one, to one of academic success and the beginning of building meaningful relationships with peers.
Stop thinking of it as poison.
You’re living in the dark ages.
You have to see it (the affect it can have on someone) to believe it.June 6, 2016 5:38 am at 5:38 am #1154732
big deal -“(Even then I have seen very competent doctors miss the mark with their diagnosis.)”
What makes them competent – because you say so?!?June 6, 2016 10:30 am at 10:30 am #1154733
I’m sorry that my negative personal experience with amphetamines is keeping me in the Dark Ages.June 6, 2016 1:38 pm at 1:38 pm #1154734
So, if you have a bad experience with a crutch that can help you walk, no one should use it?
Why do you think your experience will be true for everyone else??
I totally think you should share, as I think those who have had a positive experience should share.
What I take issue with is making it sound like it’s a poison.
I have seen both sides of the coin. I witnessed some side effects that were very undesirable. I also witnessed the terrible damage that spending years using alternative supports can have on a child. Truly, I don’t think medicine is ideal. But neither is being miserable, being kicked out of school, rejected by all of one’s peers and having a tumultuous home environment.
I don’t think that there’s one way that’s right or everyone.
All of the healthy living suggestions offered earlier in this thread are wonderful for all kids, and more so for kids with ADHD. But it’s naive to think that that would be enough for kids dealing with this unique challenge to a more extreme degree.
If a child can’t sit through bensching, how in the world is he going to sit through a therapy session?
I think managing naturally is the preferred route, but only if possible. It is not enough for everyone and I would want others to know that medicine is not evil and they should not be afraid to try. The improvement and positive impact on a child/person’s life and self esteem cannot be overstated.June 6, 2016 2:02 pm at 2:02 pm #1154735
Not because I say so. They came highly recommended by referral agencies and principals. Some of them head the board at prestigious hospitals and they cost a small fortune since they don’t accept insurance. That’s not to say they’re not good doctors. Most of them are wonderful people and truly want to help. They are just human and mistakes happen. It doesn’t help that modern medicine is far from understanding the human brain. As a lot of them will admit that medication could frequently be trial and error.June 6, 2016 3:23 pm at 3:23 pm #1154736
The bad experience was actually more of a hellish nightmare.June 6, 2016 5:42 pm at 5:42 pm #1154737
Big deal -“Not because I say so. They came highly recommended by referral agencies and principals. Some of them head the board at prestigious hospitals and they cost a small fortune since they don’t accept insurance. That’s not to say they’re not good doctors. Most of them are wonderful people and truly want to help. They are just human and mistakes happen. It doesn’t help that modern medicine is far from understanding the human brain. As a lot of them will admit that medication could frequently be trial and error.”
Yidd23 -“The bad experience was actually more of a hellish nightmare.”
IDK if they are competent or Not!
I do know that these meds have helped a lot of people.
FYI – Up to one-third of ADHD patients have co-morbid conditions! There are at least 5 of them!
It’s quite possible that you have a co-morbid condition!
Go see another Shrink!June 6, 2016 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #1154738
We won’t know whether ADHD is a real condition until we stop trying to force people through a cookie cutter. Factory schooling is unhealthy, so a lot of people who are diagnosed with ADHD may just be suffering from the adverse effects of a schooling system that just doesn’t work for everyone.June 7, 2016 2:58 am at 2:58 am #1154739
Yidd23 -“We won’t know whether ADHD is a real condition until we stop trying to force people through a cookie cutter. Factory schooling is unhealthy, so a lot of people who are diagnosed with ADHD may just be suffering from the adverse effects of a schooling system that just doesn’t work for everyone.”
That’s so Not true! Nowadays they have Special Ed programs and Special Ed schools. If the problem is academic, there are solutions!
If the problem is in the person’s brain, there are medications.
There are medications for the co-morbid conditions, along with meds for ADHD!June 7, 2016 6:28 am at 6:28 am #1154740
Special ed is from the point of view that mainstream is ideal.June 7, 2016 7:43 am at 7:43 am #1154741Rabbi WernickMember
I think we have to bear in mind that every situation is different.
There are extreme cases where students cannot function in a school (or life) without medication.
However, ADHD is over-diagnosed and medication is usually prescribed as the easy way out. After all, it is much easier to say the student has a problem & needs meds than it is to say my classes are boring, or the school system doesn’t work for every (if any) kid, or I need to become a more effective parent.
Furthermore, in the overwhelming majority of situations where medication is the best option, it should only be a short term “band aid” while the student (& teachers / parents) learn strategies to cope with their challenges. Then the student can eventually (or at least partly) wean off the medication. Otherwise, as the student grows bigger and also becomes used to the medication, the doses just get bigger and bigger and so do the side effects.June 7, 2016 11:01 am at 11:01 am #1154742
Regarding the assertion that ADHD is overly diagnosed:
There is now a test available which can definitively diagnose whether a person has ADHD, what type (distracted, hyperactive, a mix), and the length of time of attention span.
A camera is strapped to a person’s head, sensors to their knees. They participate in a computerized test with geometric images flashing across the screen,
They are instructed to press the space bar when seeing a particular image (that resembles slightly another image on the screen as well).
This requires concentration.
Impulsivity is measured by the frequency of pressing the space bar unnecessarily (computer recorded). Hyperactivity is measured by figgiting in one’s seat (recorded by the sensors on one’s knees) and by head movements that are graphed by the camera strapped to one’s head). A digital image reveals greater head movements with hyperactive people.
The test also records attention span.June 7, 2016 4:32 pm at 4:32 pm #1154743
mommamia22-“Regarding the assertion that ADHD is overly diagnosed:
There is now a test available which”
There is a test beforehand that enables one to diagnose it!June 7, 2016 7:26 pm at 7:26 pm #1154744
The test you’re talking about tests for attention span – you’re right. But that doesn’t prove if ADHD is a disorder or not. Can you tell me how many activities in regular life require you to sit for 15 minutes waiting for a certain letter to flash while doing nothing else. I believe most people would either fall asleep while doing that or get edgy.
I’m not entirely opposed to use of medication. In modern times a child needs to go through the school system. In my opinion they need to do that happily. I would try other educational methods (I’m not suggesting supplements necessarily) first. You need to have resources available to make it happen.June 7, 2016 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #1154745YW Moderator-29 👨💻Moderator
It doesn’t matter if real life requires it or not, it is about whether or not you can do something that you should be able to do. When a person is having trouble coping, it is important to develop ways to isolate different skills in order to find out where the weak link is. If it bothers you that some people want relief from their struggles, then don’t advocate for it. But your complaints against it sound like you may be a bit uninformed about the diagnostic process.June 7, 2016 11:03 pm at 11:03 pm #1154746
The computerized test does more than diagnose.
It measures exactly how long a person’s attention span is, to the minute, and how figitty he is. This is more accurate and informative than through observation.
The fact that the test does not reflect daily activities or that it might be boring, which it is not (it is like a video game) is irrelevant to it being considered by professionals to be an accurate method of measuring the presence of ADHD.June 8, 2016 3:51 am at 3:51 am #1154747
R. Wernicke -“However, ADHD is over-diagnosed and medication is usually prescribed as the easy way out.
Furthermore, in the overwhelming majority of situations where medication is the best option, it should only be a short term “band aid” while the student (& teachers / parents) learn strategies to cope with their challenges. Then the student can eventually (or at least partly) wean off the medication.”
You are severely misinformed!
Stop with your street science!
It’s a real disorder and a lot of people need medication for life.
If you’re involved in Chinuch, please get yourself a real education about ADHD.June 8, 2016 4:36 am at 4:36 am #1154748
I wish I was unfamiliar with the process.
Who is supposed to decide what a person should/not be able to do? The board of Ed? The principals? The teachers? People were not created to sit and study the entire day. Until recently most people did not.
That being said, I agree with you that people need to cope and they should use medication if they find it necessary. To deny the meds if needed and helpful, would be terrible. But, like the doctor said, if there would be better resources and less students per teacher (more flexibility in classroom management), this child would not need medication. (Obviously not a blanket statement).
If we manage to isolate the weak skills we should then work to strengthen them. That would be beneficial. There doesn’t necessarily need to be a leap to medication.
I understood the test to be very boring. While it may be accurate in measuring attention span, it can’t determine if adhd (or very short attention spans) is a disorder.June 8, 2016 4:46 am at 4:46 am #1154749
“If you’re involved in Chinuch, please get yourself a real education about ADHD.”
If you’re involved in Chinuch, please manage your classroom as if all the students have ADHD.
There are good books out there that have many helpful tips and tricks to accomplish this. Those that use these methods make great teachers. Some of the material also gives you a good understanding as to what these kids go through.June 8, 2016 2:55 pm at 2:55 pm #1154750
Big deal -“If you’re involved in Chinuch, please manage your classroom as if all the students have ADHD.”
No, I’m not. I’m in the medical field.
“There are good books out there that have many helpful tips and tricks to accomplish this. Those that use these methods make great teachers. Some of the material also gives you a good understanding as to what these kids go through.”
This I agree with! There are many schools out there & a lot of them are Not up to par!
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