- This topic has 95 replies, 19 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 6 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Benignuman, when Rav Fienstien was alive he was considered the unquestioned Gadol Hador. Except for you and Joseph, I’ve never heard anyone consider Rav Miller a Gadol let alone the Gadol. He was a Yu graduate , the Rav of the Young Israel of Rugby and,to the best of my knowledge, was not a posek. He was a talmid chachom but not a Gadol
ZD: “Some here think its a good idea to go to Seforim and pick out some of the things that were said , they are actually trolling and not only are they not giving kavod to the Rav, they are actually disrepcting him. Picking out statements that is known not to be so popular will lead to people to disraged the Gedolim.
the Shaila or statement is usually given in a context and out of context it will seem weird, stupid or worse and people will not respect the gadol for it”
Maskim.
I agree with benignuman and wanted to make the same point myself. Its not about which gadol is greater, it’s about the fact that only Hashem has the ability to judge people (gadol or not) correctly and its inappropriate for us to think that we can make that determination. Also it seems a bit disrespectful to be judging people who reached higher levels than we have.
Do you mean Maskilim not Maskim?
exactly
ZD – I meant “maskim” as in “I agree with you.”
Kapusta, I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. According to you, there is no such as a Gadol. Judaism is not a democracy, we don’t believe that everyone is equal, and we do believe that there are people called Gedolim who ARE much greater than the rest of us and whom we are required to follow. This is a basic concept of Judaism and one that our entire Mesorah is based on.
I never said there is no such thing as a gadol. I said that only Hashem can judge the level of a persons gadlus, as far as who is greater.
kapusta, how do you judge who is a godol in the first place?
You start by disqualifying anyone who advocates threatening people’s children because they disagree about something stupid.
my “exactly” was for not quoting out of context in a way that makes people annoyed about the speaker
Kapusta, I’m sorry but that is ridiculous. According to you, there is no such as a Gadol. Judaism is not a democracy, we don’t believe that everyone is equal, and we do believe that there are people called Gedolim who ARE much greater than the rest of us and whom we are required to follow. This is a basic concept of Judaism and one that our entire Mesorah is based on.
LU – We don’t believe that everyone is equal, and we also believe that there are people called Talmidei Chachamim who are much greater than the rest of us. You may be right that not every Talmid Chochom is a Manhig Hadoir, but his photo doesn’t have to be on the Kupat Ha’ir Brochure in order to be considered “Da’as Torah”. [I’m not arguing on your distinction]
LU
I think the Maskilim used to do that too. They would ask shailis and show chiddushes in such a way to make the torah look bad
When judging any two people, do you claim to be privy to every single detail which they can be judged on?
I can’t think of any constructive purpose to deciding who is a greater gadol (with exception for piskei Halacha- not the discussion here). We choose people and specific traits to emulate. When comparing two people, by default, one of them will be considered lower which seems very inappropriate with regard to people of a certain stature. (Lashon hara possibly?) Furthermore, even when we are judged, we are not compared to a gadol, we are only compared with our own potential.
There is a great line that anyone can count the number of seeds in an apple, but only Hashem can count the number of apples in a seed. This discussion feels like children (WADR) choosing apples by number of seeds.
In a nutshell, IMO it seems disrespectful for the schoolchildren to be discussing who is a better teacher, and doing it in front of the Principal. I guess it’s a sensitivity.
Kapusta – no one was was comparing Gedolim here. The context of the discussion was comparing a Gadol versus a regular person (i.e. non-Gadol). I am not “judging” Rav Avigdor Miller for the fact that he wasn’t a Gadol. I am also not a Gadol and neither are you. Those are just facts that do not reflect badly on anyone. And yes, I do need to know who is a Gadol and who is not so that I know how to treat them.
Yekke2- the term “Daas Torah” is used in different ways, which can cause a lot of unfortunate confusion. There are basically two ways to use the term “Daas Torah”. One of these is the way it is used when talking about Gedolei Hador (such as Rav Chaim Kanievsky, shlita, or Rav Shach Zatsal). In this context, it means (at least according to most people) that we all have to listen to what they say when they make a pronouncement for the klal. (even then, some might say that there can be more than one Gadol Hador, and if they disagree, you can choose which one to listen to, but many would say that there is only one Gadol Hador and we all have to listen to him, but I DON’T want to go there, since that is not the topic under discussion and I DO NOT want that to become the topic under discussion). In any case, in terms of this usage of the term “Daas Torah”, I and you do not have the right or the ability to disagree. (at best if there is a dissenting opinion amongst Gedolim, we MAY have the right to choose whom to follow, but it’s not so simple).
Then there is the second way that the term “Daas Torah” is used. In this way, it can be used in reference to anyone who is at all learned, and it has percentages (not that we can calculate exactly). To the extent that someone has learned and INTERNALIZED the teachings of the Torah, his views will be Daas Torah. Some people may have 5% Daas Torah and some may have 99% (I don’t think that anyone can be said to have 100%). (This last paragraph is based on a quote from the Seifer “Daas Torah”. I don’t have the source on me, although I can possibly try to locate it at some point).
According to the second usage of the term, I have a certain amount of Daas Torah, Rav Avigdor Miller had a certain amount of Daas Torah, and every Rav and Talmid Chacham has a certain amount. When it is used this way, it is more subjective, in the sense that I can choose whose “Daas Torah” I want to listen to (assuming that I am choosing based on intellectually honest reasons. Comfort level MAY POSSIBLY be considered an intellectually honest reason in CERTAIN cases.) According to this definition, no one can tell me that I have to follow a certain Rav (such as R’ Avigdor Miller) because he is Daas Torah.
When I used the term “Daas Torah”, I was referring to the first definition. Actually, that is the only way that I,personally ever use the term, and I don’t like it when people use it the second way, since it leads people to think that anyone who has learned some Torah is in the same category as a Gadol and everyone has to follow them. When people feel that they can’t accept something that some Rav or Talmid Chacham said, they end up losing respect for the Gedolim, since they never learned to distinguish between the two.
In any case, the point is that one can bring Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita as a source but not Rav Avigdor Miller.
ZD – I think it’s a yeshivish expression that I picked up in Lakewood.
“In this context, it means (at least according to most people) that we all have to listen to what they say when they make a pronouncement for the klal.”
I don’t know of any source for this idea. There is a concept of Rabban Shel Yisroel: a teacher whose piskei halacha are excepted by all of Klal Yisroel, but I cannot think of anyone who would fit that standard since the Chofetz Chaim (maybe). One should follow the psak of a Rabban Shel Yisroel in circumstances where one can (a) not determine the halacha for oneself; and (b) does not have personal Rav who has a ruling on the issue or case.
Outside of the above, while it might be wise to listen to the pronouncements of great Talmidei Chachomim and Tzadikim and one should prudently re-assess their personal positions in light of such pronouncements, there is no issur in disagreeing or not following such pronouncements.
Whether or not someone is a great Talmud Chachom can be determined by reading their works, listening to their shiurim, and seeing how their opinions are treated and discussed by Talmidei Chachomim you know personally. But once you are dealing with a signficant level of Talmud Chachom it is very difficult to distinguish between them. Is the Rambam “greater” than the Ramban or the Ran?
Tzidkus is even more difficult to determine. Gadlus (a term which I view as a combination of Tzidkus, Chochma, and influence on the klal) is something that is extremely difficult to determine without first-hand experience. The best you can usually say is person X is “considered” or “treated as” a Gadol. It is certainly true that Rav Moshe Feinstein was treated as a Gadol in a way that Rabbi Avigdor Miller never was. It is also true that from their works, Rav Moshe Feinstein would appear to me to be a greater Talmud Chachom. But I never gave them a bechina, I don’t know what was in their hearts, and I can’t judge their ultimate positive influence on Klal Yisroel. Furthermore, as Kapusta wrote, there is no constructive purpose to such a discussion.
Now the way I normally understand the idea of Daas Torah (as opposed to psak halacha), is that when making life decisions the outlook of a Torah infused mind will have insights as to the ramifications of those decisions that a less-Torah infused mind might miss. And so, before making serious life-decisions, it is usually worth your while to consult with Torah sage that knows you, that understands your personal and societal situation, and can give you advice from a Torah perspective. Rabbi Avigdor Miller is someone whose life was devoted to learning and teaching Torah. He was Shul Rav and was therefore regularly involved with the lives and issues of ordinary frum people in America. In my opinion, he is exactly the sort of person one should consult to get Daas Torah on an issue.
Rav Avigdor Miller single handed took a MO Young Israel and turned it in to a Charadi Bais Medrash. He taught people with no learning experience gemarah and went through Shas with them. He was a writer an orator lecturing to the public. He was to those who knew him Daas Torah and one of the last European Educated Great Rabbis.
Comparing R’ Avigdor Miller to Rav Moshe is like comparing a sniper to a machine gunner. Which is why Rav Moshe when asked about smoking said Hashem watches out for the fool meaning it’s not prohibited to smoke. This is because R’ Moshe felt the smoker would have a hard time breaking the smoking habit. While R’ Avigdor Miller saw the threat that divorce posed to the Jewish community and fought against it. What you are seeing is from his speeches which was made for the masses. If you spoke to him about a case where the husband is withholding a get when there is no chance of reconciliation, just out of spite, he would probably tell you the man isn’t human and the get should be given.
“If you spoke to him about a case where the husband is withholding a get when there is no chance of reconciliation, just out of spite, he would probably tell you the man isn’t human and the get should be given.”
Thank you for agreeing with me! So why in the world did you just write a post in the other thread arguing with me for saying that someone should get divorced in such a situation? Or did you not read the entire thread and therefore not realize the context of your post?
No one in either thread ever suggested or asserted that withholding a divorce just out of spite is ever acceptable.
That’s ok, you don’t need to, when you can just threaten their family–Rabbi Miller.
Joseph – then you clearly weren’t paying attention to what your posts were posted in response to.
TheRealDonaldTrump – I realize you are just quoting Joseph and trying to make a point to him (although I hadn’t realized that the first time you brought this quote – I apologize), but, I wish you wouldn’t keep bringing this quote. It seems to me that there may be an element of Motzi Shem Ra here, since the implication from your words is that Rav Miller really said this.
Rav Avigdor Miller was
without a doubt a superior expert in Chinuch and many other issues for the american millieu 1960s and 1970s than Rav Chaim Kanievsky Shlita and for that matter Rav Moshe zt’l
And they would be/have been the first to tell you that!
[ Whether what he said then is applicable for those here now, might be and could be a very different story.Even back then, two of my female relatives felt what he said in their seminaries was was less than beneficial for them in their particular circumstances]
We are going into tenuous territory when the discussion becomes who is a gadol (and who isn’t)
Who decides?
When the Agudah came to R’ Avigdor Miller to
requesting for him to come the 1997 Siyum Hashas ,his response was so him “I have a big Court Case coming up[i.e after his demise],I don’t have time for Parties”
Had he been sitting there in front of the Siyum Hashas , would the readers here give him a greater aura?
Had he been on the Moetzes ,would the readers here give him a greater aura?
Was he kept off as some contend,because some who had/have disproportionate influence had some fear of his straight unimpeachable unequivocal philosophy
e.g.as they indeed kept Rav Schwab at some distance also?
Rabbi Miller was
battling attitudes of that era ,fostered
by Hollywood ,19th century novels,etc.
It is a different world now partially because of his success.
Today ,however, it would be probably good for Dating if there would be a Jane Austen novel in every
BMG Dorm room
Lilmod,
That’s a very good point. And I’m glad you’re able to say it without being scared for your family. Is a good thing I’m not Joseph
I am not sure what is meant by Rabbi Avigdor Miller threaten their family. I never heard of it nor saw it happen. Please describe the threat made. In fact I think many of those who support the Agunahs are threatening the husband’s family by trying to get them fired.
Ask Joseph. Hes the one who does it and says it was rabbi miller’s idea
I have posted similar words on other forums on various occasions. What is this business about “deciding who is a gadol?” Do taxi drivers, butchers and carpenters decide who is the best cardiac surgeon? No. For that matter, we do not even consult medical students. The collective of cardiac surgeons all know who among them is the biggest expert. It is their opinion that counts, not the butchers or cab drivers. Regarding gadlus be’Torah, it’s similar. The Talmidei Chachomim in a particular generation all know who is the biggest expert(s) among them. Stop treating the matter as if it were some kind of popularity contest, c”v.
Joseph: “Kapusta, if you agree that for purposes of psak we can judge which gedolim and rabbonim are comparatively greater than their peers, as your comment excepted for purposes of psak, then we’re likely not disagreeing much. The main reason it is useful to know which gedolim and rabbonim are greater than their peers is to be able to choose which rabbonim we should follow for halacha and hashkafa, by us choosing those who are the greater ones.
Beningnuman, on the other hand, is disagreeing with Rav Shach when benignuman maintains we can’t judge altogether who is greater. Rav Shach said we could – and we should! – judge that, and that we should follow the greater ones.”
Joseph +1
Lilmod and Joseph,
As explained above and elsewhere, the relevance of who is “greater” is very limited, and even in that limited scope (of psak halacha) it is further limited, applying only in cases where there is no majority on either side of the issue. Furthermore, it should be pointed out that the “greater” with regard to psak, is greater in Chochma and Minyan (“minyan” in this context means who has more talmidim). What matters is who is the greater talmid chachom, not who is the greater tzadik. If one is in such a situation you have to make a call as to who is greater in Chochma. It is hard call to make, fortunately it is only rarely an issue.
Joseph, I don’t know what statement from Rav Shach you are referring to. However, there is a great deal of difference between choosing a rov for yourself (something everyone should do) and making an objective statement that Rabbi X is greater than Rabbi Y. Obviously, each of us can have opinions about who we think is greater, however ill-informed, and in deciding on who to take on as your Rov, you should pick an accessible person you believe to be the greatest. Why would you pick someone you thought wasn’t the greatest.
But in attempting to make an objective statement about gadlus in an attempt to convince others or to argue that the followers of Gadol X are more correct than the followers of Gadol Y (or Hashkafa X is more correct than Hashkafa Y), there is simply no way for most of us to know.
Please go back up above for my long-winded explanation for why it is difficult to judge Tzidkus and Gadlus, and explain to me where I went wrong and how you are able to judge the Tzidkus and Gadlus of people that you do not know personally. How do you know that you are not perceiving an ???? ?????
AY
Using the cardiac analogy is not a good one. A better example would be governmental leaders and that is part of the issue. People who live in Western free governments have trouble compartmentalizing democracy vs other forms of leadership. A gadol is a leader and in todays society people feel the right to choose their President/Prime Minister or degrade them or some other comment against them. Unfortunatly this feeling goes to Jewish leaders (Gadolim as well) . Since people associate the Gadol in the same sense as the president/Prime Minister they will treat them similary. rightly or wrongly
ZD: How some people relate to gedolei Torah is the result of too much western democracy (aka “goyishe influences”). Feelings don’t transform errors into truth and correctness. I assert that the cardiac surgeon analogy is valid. Those that are not willing to accept it — well, let them ask their butcher or a cab driver whom they think is the best surgeon …
When you ask a cab driver for a cardiac surgeon you dont have to accept his answer. Whether you like it or not you have to accept who the Preisdent or Prime minister is, so it definatly is a better comparison.
When Moshiach comes there will be no more problem
ZD & AY – I think you are both saying the same thing. ZD is talking about the way things are (that people relate to Gedolim like they relate to elected leaders) and AY is talking about how things should be – that people should realize that the Gedolim were not “chosen” in a democratic election, but rather they were chosen by the experts, and therefore we must respect them and not act like it is up to us to decide who the Gedolim are.
american_yerushalmi,
Very well said
“AY is talking about how things should be “
Also well said
AY,
Is it really like how it’s supposed to be?
A person should add romance and color to all aspects of life!
Let’s hear some words from the ladies on this forum. What do you think? Is romance a goyishe, treife thing?
I would have said no, but it depends how you are defining the term. Joseph is defining the term in such a way that it is something goyish. Those who think it’s not goyish think that way because they are defining it differently.
IITFT: “Is it really like how it’s supposed to be?”
Is what really like what’s supposed to be? What “it” you referring to to?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.