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(This is not a troll thread. It is not motzaei shabbos.)
Why do we consider romantic songs to be treif. Romance is not a treif concept, and is not really something we should be trying to hide. (Yes, I know mosherose and joseph think it is, but they are incorrect.)
For example, I think it is important to show your kids that you have a relationship with your wife. How else are they going to understand it?
Additionally, chazal is full of romantic references. And shir hashirim is all romance. So I think it a good idea to listen to these songs and think about Hashem. Why should that be bad? We are supposed to use human relationships to analogize to Hashem.
Am I a joseph for beleiving that romance is for the bedroom and PDA (public display of affection) is not tzenuois?
I beleive your kids should see you respecting your spouse but romance is none of there bussines.
Romance is not a goyishe concept? Even though I disagree with that assertion, I’ll only point out that even if you maintain it isn’t goyish, it certainly shouldn’t be something you do publicly.
A- There are halachos regarding this issue which I’m sure you’re aware of.
B- Listening to these songs won’t increase your love toward your spouse.
So what are you trying to do? Get us all excited and worked up?
This, my friend, is what we call a “troll”.
“This is not a troll thread.”
Mmmm…Hard to believe.
“So I think it a good idea to listen to these songs and think about Hashem.”
Oh!! so listening to a pop star reminds you of hashem? realy…
PBA, I can agree with your second post.
Popa
The non Jewish concept of love and the Jewish one are polar opposites. Non Jewish love is about trying out the model first and if you like it you keep. Its based on selfish lusting for the opposite gender. Jewish marriage and relationships are about selflessness and giving.
Even what you do in the bedroom is about giving and the chiyuv on the man is to give to his wife its not about getting your tayvos fulfilled.
I can’t even believe I need to point this out to someone who claims to have semicha.
My Rosh Yeshiva wouldn’t even call his wife by her first name in public.
To answer your second post:
1- Nobody ever said romance is treif.
2- If you respect your spouse, the kids see it and understand that you love them.
Popa
Why don’t you ask Amy whinehouse what the songs are about? Oh sorry too late she already Overdosed because of all the “love” she was getting. Gimme a break.
“I dont listen to non jewish music”
“I used to think that also, until I hears some of them.”
Huh?!
Popa
If you spent a year listening to that garbage no wonder you don’t understand what’s wrong with it. My skin crawls when I hear the songs today in a supermarket or from a ups truck or whatever…
Try to detox and then you will be able to understand. When you are in the mud you have a hard time seeing through it and you become used to it. When you go a month without movies tv and any of the non Jewish music and media garbage and also learn Torah and mussar you wont ask these questions.
When I hear non Jewish songs I also think about Hashem but Im sure its not what you think….
popa: I agree, and btw whether you like it or not, you have just espoused an MO hashkafa. To wit, you said that something is not treif and that we can use it to grow even if it isn’t written in a broken rashi typeface. Furthermore, you showed the binah necessary to discern the difference between romantic and vulgar. Yasher koach.
Wow, a year in starbucks? Did you sleep at all or did the coffee (room) keep you up for a whole year?
popa is MO??
Thanks WIY.
Popa, I suggest you learn some mussar and halacha before posting something like this.
Itche
Even songs that don’t use vulgar terms which are quite rare, are referring to a lustful romance, and as far as I know romance is not a kosher concept. Its a concept made up by non Jews as a euphemism in mamah lushin its a way to fool a girl into thinking you care about her so she lets her guard down and you can go take advantage of her.
Love on the other hand, is a kosher concept and has nothing to do with what the non Jews sing about.
popa: MO does not have a monopoly on our hashkafos, nor do we claim to.(Which is why we’ll always lose any kind of demographic shouting match but we don’t care.) And thanks for staying out. I would to except that I have to stand up for the kavod of the people who kept me observant.
Poppa
You are telling us that the music that you listened to in a Starbucks for a year was all Kosher or even mostly Kosher and the music is not about lust? Maybe your standards aren’t very high or you dont think about the words and what they mean…if your ears are open its not hard to get what’s beneath the songs. Im sure anyone with a clean neshomah would be repulsed by any of the songs on the current top 100 or top 40 or whatever they call it these days…
The result of this mindset is, Gelila of a Sefer Torah is not worth it !
Itche and Pops and other defenders of MO
I have nothing against Modern Orthodox, and in fact I know some modern Orthodox people who are well versed in Torah, however if you have a shittah that it is permitted to watch movies, have girlfriends and do other dvarim assurim, you aren’t modern “Orthodox” you are just plain a modern day mumar lteyavon.
Who ever said watching movies, having girlfriends etc is a davar assur?
Wow, I love this topic. As someone who believes they are Really FRUM, (I don’t know how/why I spend so much time here in the CR) I just wanted to agree with PBA. I think that all things jewish or not are here for us (yidden) to benefit from. I do not listen to non-jewish music but people I know and love do and when I hear some of the music I am brought to tears by the beauty. If I knew who those specific non-jewish singers are I WOULD listen to it. I think that the words can really uplift you and bring you closer to your spouse and to Hashem, which should be the ultimate purpose of everything we do. I however would not listen to all sorts just to find the good ones, but if I ever come across a good one, I will surly benefit from it.
Popa, I completely agree with you.
Romantic songs that aren’t vulgar are not rare at all, in fact wherever you live I’m sure there is a radio station that is dedicated to such music. Moreover, unlike Popa, I can say with confidence that I am pretty well-rounded when it comes to music, and I think that to say that most romantic songs are about “lust” is absurd.
To say that “the non Jewish concept of love and the Jewish one are polar opposites” is to me a statement made in ignorance, and Popa is right that Chazal are full of statements that have romantic connotations. And sure, Shir Hashirim is a mashal, but would Shlomo Hamelech use something that was treif and utterly false as a mashal? Come on.
I don’t consider romantic songs to be treif.
Speaking of glila, I was speaking to the gabbai of a small minyan who told me that his job is not to give out kibbudim but to decide which two people to insult with hagba and glila.
I agree with everything Popa said in his original post. Except that I never considered such songs to be “treif” anyway, so I’m not included in the question “Why do WE consider romantic songs to be treif”.
I also think that there is nothing wrong with displaying affection for a spouse in front of your kids. I actually think you should.
Popa
Since romance has nothing to do with lust, let me ask you this, have you ever heard of a Romance Novel? Do you know what is on those pages? Those books are disgusting and even many non Jews recognize that fact. I guess you selectively define romance to what fits your purposes…but just know, that I would think an author knows what the word romance means more than you and I and a romance novel is filthy beyond description. Just keep that in mind the next time you want to convince yourself that romance is a Kosher term…
kids pick up on all the “small” stuff going on in the home. they watch and hear how you speak with your spouse. they see and hear if you are happy to come home after a hard days work and don’t run out the door for all the outside stuff. you do not need the music. it will not bring you closer to how you feel with your shared quality time with your spouse. do you enjoy going for a stroll together, do you enjoy playing a game shabbos afternoon together? that they will pick up on.
Actually Romance is not about “lust” at all. Romance is about “giving” and “pleasing”. “lust” is about taking so all those arguing with PBA have no concept of Romance and have no clue what PBA is talking about.
PBA, I hear you loud and clear. You can find beauty in many places. A song can make you cry and a poem can as well. There are many songs, even romantic songs that were taken from tehillim. Not every decade and era used vulgar language as this decade and the previous decade did. There were songs that I heard in stores after my father was nifter that made me burst out in tears and run from the store. They just touched me and something in the words just reminded me of him. No matter how much you try not to listen your subconscious picks it up. And when you are in love and hear a song that touches your heart and says the words that you would love to relate or express to your spouse but somehow were not able to verbalize or compose on your own it gets to you and you might want to share it to relay your own feelings.
WIY
WIY romance novels are disgusting because they give clear descriptions and sometimes use inappropriate words but romantic songs dont always have these problems
Well said WIY. (All your comments here.)
BTW, there was a pole done in a magazine recently an women were asked “what was the most Romantic thing your husband did for you in the past month?” You would be very surprised with the answers. They included:
Took out the garbage
Mowed the Lawn
Watched the kids while I slept
Gave me a Gift Certificate to the Spa
Did the grocery shopping
Told me I looked great
Made me dinner
Do I need to go on?
I agree with Popa. I think those who are objecting so strenuously are overreacting. Romantic songs are typically NOT about lust. Lustful music is generally not romantic. Romance is about emotions, and lust is about…well you know. And anyone here who cannot tell the difference between the two, has probably grown up in a vacuum.
When I hear the theme song from Titanic, for example, it makes me cry. There are many such songs that tap into our feelings, without being vulgar. Everything that is not Jewish is not necessarily treif.
I agree with oomis. titanic theme song is one of the most moving songs i have ever heard and its not vulgar
What does the oilam hold of the Barney song, “I love you, you love me…”? Is it assur treif diyoraisa or muttar bidieved?
Popa, by mir bist di shein!
YW – lol, u can’t be serious about Barney…
There is a well known gemara in Sanhedrin Daf 101a that says
??? ???? ????? ???? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ???? ??? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ?? ?????? ???? ???”? ?????? ????? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ???? ????? ??????? ?? ???? – Someone who sings pesukim of shir hashirim the way leitzim do make the torah dress in sackcloth and cry out to hashem and say your children etc. Rashi explains that it goes on the whole torah not just shir hashirim that it can not be used to make songs at a party. The Achronim are all maarich on this in siman 510.
But the Likutei Maharil and the sefer Chasidim 147 say another pshat. They say it is only going on shir hashirim and when someone sings the words of shir hashirim for a song than the torah etc. The words of shir hashirim may appear romantic, but it is assur to make them into a shir agovim . They have a very deep meaning and it is assur to use it literally. He says that is why it says leitzim. Because leitzim sing these tyoe of songs………
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