Romantic songs

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  • #1003542
    tomim tihye
    Member

    aries, your post expresses my feelings, too.

    People hear songs through their own personalities/Neshamos.

    That is why WIY and Popa may disagree on the appropriateness of the same songs.

    Either that, or they aren’t referring to the same songs.

    I’ve heard several romantic songs from wartime and other tekufos that made me think of Hashem and draw closer to Him.

    Even when a man sings/hums these songs to his wife, they are about the Neshama connection, and do not sound vulgar, because they are not.

    #1003543
    Chacham
    Participant

    popa – the gemara says ????? ??????? ?? ???? – LIKE the way of the leitzim. dheinu the genre of leitzim

    #1003544
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    popa – the gemara says ????? ??????? ?? ???? – LIKE the way of the leitzim.

    Hmmm. I don’t know.

    #1003545
    miritchka
    Member

    Aries- totally agree!

    #1003546

    Popa: The only real unity between a man and wife is only through their spiritual side. Romance songs may be ok to listen to, but they do not elevate your feelings of closeness to Hashem. Popa, how could you understand the spirituality of marriage if you are not married?

    #1003547
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    LMA: Eh? Not sure what you’re saying.

    #1003548

    Popa: Get married and you’ll understand.

    #1003549
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Hey Lomed, according to your logic, how can you understand the spirituality of the MO if you aren’t MO?

    And just curious, what’t the point of the physical side if the emotional aspect is “false.”

    #1003550
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    LMA:

    If I am not married, and if one needs to be married to understand (which is probably true), I still don’t know what that has to do with this topic.

    The fact will remain that we are supposed to use the human romantic relationship to understand our relationship with Hashem- as best as we can understand it.

    Thus: Eh? Not sure what you’re saying.

    #1003551

    Yitay: I didn’t say it was false; the two sides coincide with each other.

    #1003552

    Popa: I don’t get what you’re saying (although I usually agree/respect your posts); how does understanding romantic realtionship help you understand better your relationship with God? Do you think a single man or woman can’t have a relationship with God?

    #1003553
    aries2756
    Participant

    I Love the Barney song. I sing it with my 2 year old granddaughter every day. And I can’t even begin to tell you what I feel when she says she loves me. There is nothing in the world like it. “I Yuv you Bobby!” YUUUUUUUUUMMMMMMMY!

    #1003554
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    LMA:

    Ok, we can talk about that.

    All human relationships were created by Hashem for us to either learn something about Hashem, or to be able to emulate Hashem.

    Thus:

    We have fathers so that we can understand that Hashem treats us as a father.

    We have children so that we can emulate Hashem by doing for someone with no expectation of a return. (and yes, Hashem made the world and could have made us have fathers and not children. Don’t ask me how.)

    We have spouses so that we can understand that our relationship with Hashem is like a spouse.

    We have kings so that we can understand how Hashem relates to us as a king.

    This is clear from shir hashirim, which uses the romantic relationship to analogize to our relationship with Hashem. We are supposed to do that.

    You ask whether a single person can have a relationship with Hashem. Yes. But perhaps not the same way a married person can. And perhaps an orphan cannot understand the way Hashem acts as a father.

    #1003555

    I didn’t read the whole the thread…I like the Beatles song “I want to hold your hand”…I do hold my wife’s hand in public…especially on our shabbos walks…

    #1003556

    Popa: My point is that listening to romantic songs does not help give more meaning to your relationship with Hashem, given that in reality you are really single. Marriage in real life can give a deeper dimension to your relationship with Hashem; but being single and listening to romantic songs is just self contradictory.

    Shir Hashirim brings out the marriage relationship, since our personal relationship with Hashem [being single or married] is really in essence identical to a spiritual marriage relationship.

    #1003557
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    LMA:

    If it makes you happy, I’ll say I’m only talking about married people. (I just wonder if you think shir hashirim is only for married people.)

    And you have no idea if I’m married or not. And I like it that way. (Unless you know who I am- in which case I don’t know why you are saying I’m not married. Unless you are my wife and I really should come home fast.)

    #1003558

    Popa: Married people don’t need romantic songs to help enhance their relationship with Hashem; they have a spouse IRL that constantly helps their relationship with Hashem grow.

    From analyzing your posts on other threads [ and this thread included], I can assert with confindence that you are in fact single.

    #1003559
    adorable
    Participant

    I think popa is single and maybe missing that romance in his life

    #1003560
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t really see how we are disagreeing on anything very substantial. (Including whether I am married, which is very substantial to me, but not to the CR). So ok.

    #1003561

    Your posts in general are great, keep up the great work!

    #1003562
    Chacham
    Participant

    popa- If you are married why do your brothers come to you for bein hazmanim? unless they are all you.

    Either the point of my earlier post from the gemara in sanhedrin is that although it can be used as a mashal – it must not be sung and turned into shiri agovim that the leitzim sing.

    #1003563
    adorable
    Participant

    popa- would you kiss your wife in public? would you walk around your block holding hands? If you would, then maybe these romantic songs are ok for you.

    #1003564
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    The second half of this post is very important.

    Romantic songs

    It’s tough to discuss something when you really don’t know what you’re discussing.

    #1003565
    YW Moderator-42
    Moderator

    What does Popa’s newly married daughter from his 3rd wife (the one who he took to a beshow) hold of this thread?

    What does Popa’s 5th wife hold of this thread?

    #1003566
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    The probllem is when the singer is not married to the listener.

    #1003567
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Does he use a different screen name for each wife?

    #1003568
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Popa has only three and a half wifes.

    #1003569
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes, I have three and a half wives. The half wife will hide a bloody sack with a decapitated head for me, but will not (Oh, I can’t remember that story)

    #1003570
    Logician
    Participant

    “All human relationships were created by Hashem for us to either learn something about Hashem, or to be able to emulate Hashem.”

    That is very interesting. I thought relationships were all about giving, and other midos, and one of the fundamental frameworks within which one can grow and do avodas Hashem. Although they certainly can serve the stated purpose as well.

    Popa – respect is not love, you say. Yet you agree that many outward expressions of love are not appropriate in public. So what do you feel we should be doing?

    #1003571
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I don’t remember. Remind me what the thread is about.

    #1003572
    ☕ DaasYochid ☕
    Participant

    It was about you trying to justify listening to zemer yevani in Starbucks.

    #1003573
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    It’s okay to sing in private, though. You just shouldn’t listen to people singing certain songs if you’re not married to them.

    #1003574
    Logician
    Participant

    ok popa, sorry, not trying to disturb the thread. I actually didn’t quite understand why you brought that up in the first place.

    #1003575
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Logician,

    I definitely think very strongly that line you quoted from me. I was saying I can’t really respond to your last question since I don’t really understand it.

    #1003576
    Logician
    Participant

    Thought it was pretty clear –

    As you are not advocating showing affection in a physical way, yet you say showing respect and caring does not suffice, I was merely wondering what, IYO, should be done to ensure that children see (which you feel is importnat) their parents mutual love

    #1003577
    Torah613Torah
    Participant

    All human relationships were created by Hashem for us to either learn something about Hashem, or to be able to emulate Hashem.

    Thus:

    We have fathers so that we can understand that Hashem treats us as a father.

    We have children so that we can emulate Hashem by doing for someone with no expectation of a return. (and yes, Hashem made the world and could have made us have fathers and not children. Don’t ask me how.)

    We have spouses so that we can understand that our relationship with Hashem is like a spouse.

    We have kings so that we can understand how Hashem relates to us as a king.

    This is clear from shir hashirim, which uses the romantic relationship to analogize to our relationship with Hashem. We are supposed to do that.

    You ask whether a single person can have a relationship with Hashem. Yes. But perhaps not the same way a married person can. And perhaps an orphan cannot understand the way Hashem acts as a father.

    Posted 2 years ago #

    I like this post very much.

    #1003578
    Chcham
    Member

    rebyidd- I occasionally listen to romantic songs, but I am not married to the singer, because the Torah curses such a relationship (see Vayikra: 20:13 the end of Parshas Q’doshim for more details)

    #1003579
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    As you are not advocating showing affection in a physical way, yet you say showing respect and caring does not suffice, I was merely wondering what, IYO, should be done to ensure that children see (which you feel is importnat) their parents mutual love

    Oh. Ok.

    I think there is a whole range between showing physical affection and showing respect and caring. There are plenty of ways to act romantic and affectionate to your spouse without hugging and kissing.

    #1003580
    Drey kup
    Member

    Being affectionate in public is wrong. This obviously includes public handholding.

    #1003581
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I’m not recommending handholding. And if you don’t know any non-physical ways to be affectionate, you should see a therapist soon.

    #1003582
    Logician
    Participant

    Yes, clearly there are ways. But I wonder (without knowing the halacha) why the problem with displaying affection would be limited to physical contact.

    #1003583
    lifes great
    Member

    “I’m not recommending handholding. And if you don’t know any non-physical ways to be affectionate, you should see a therapist soon.”

    Totally agree! There’s nothing wrong with showing affection in public, within the guidelines of halacha (no hugging, kissing, touching ect.)

    #1003584
    Drey kup
    Member

    What are some examples of being affectionate in public in a non-physical way?

    #1003585
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    No, you shouldn’t marry someone because they sing that song.

    #1003586
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    What are some examples of being affectionate in public in a non-physical way?

    Ask your chosson teacher

    #1003587
    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    Are thoughts physical since they require the physical brain?

    #1003588
    Logician
    Participant

    Popa, my point was that you rejected being caring and respectful as being insufficient. I’m just not sure I get were they’re so different than non-physical affection. And if it is so different, why is that ok in public ?

    #1003589
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I certainly did. Care and respect are feelings you can and should have for anyone. But you should not have be romantic with anyone except your wife.

    So yes, I reject care and respect as being insufficient. You should be a good role model for your kids in the subject of loving your spouse as well. You don’t want your kids to grow up and get married and think that it is enough for them to have a relationship with their spouse like a friend.

    I’m a little confused that you don’t imagine there are ways to be romantic without touching. That isn’t what romance means. Romance is the feelings you have for one another. Romance is what shlomo describes in shir hashirim.

    #1003590
    Logician
    Participant

    My question is why should the problem of displaying affection be limited to the physical. [If I can get a sense, from seeing a couple in public, that they are consumed by the strong feelings expressed in shir hashirim, than I think that’s not tzanua.] I was assuming they’re equally problematic, and therefore you’re back to being limited to care and respect.

    And are you making a distinction between what one may do in front of others vs. in front of one’s children (as far as tznius is concerned) ?

    #1003591
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I could certainly hear very good reasons why it is less appropriate to kiss in public than to smile and giggle at each other.

    And of course there is a difference between what is appropriate to do in public and what is appropriate to do in your own home in front of your children. Why wouldn’t there be?

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