Rome and Eisav
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- This topic has 22 replies, 14 voices, and was last updated 10 years ago by yitayningwut.
March 18, 2013 1:48 am at 1:48 am #608651thegraMember
The gemara says that Rome comes from bne Eisav. I was wondering if there are any historic accounts that Rome acknowledged this or if was a mesorah of Klal Yisroel exclusively. Doesn’t Rome claim to come from twin brothers Romulus and Remus, who descended from the Trojan prince Aeneas and who were grandsons of the Latin King, Numitor of Alba Longa?March 18, 2013 2:24 am at 2:24 am #939131ah talmidParticipant
The Chashmonim vs. the Edomites.March 18, 2013 2:43 am at 2:43 am #939132charliehallParticipant
I’m unaware of any other source for this, and it isn’t even unanimous among our sources. Josephus reports that under Hyrcanus they were forcibly converted to Judaism; Herod was a descendent of one of those forced converts. Josephus also reports that they fought on the side of the Jews when Titus was besieging Jerusalem. Ibn Ezra accepts that narrative and criticizes those who accept the “Edom = Rome” view.March 18, 2013 2:54 am at 2:54 am #939133
“The Edomites [the nation around Mount Seir, descended from Esau] [of the city] of Rome determined their belief in him and established it [as the religion of the empire].
“This, above all else, is the main cause and reason that Rome and Edom are considered as one kingdom although they are different nations. In spite of that [difference] [The Sages of the Targum] thus explained that Rome is in Grecian Italy and that many of the Edomite people are contained therein. Hence, [Rome]March 18, 2013 3:53 am at 3:53 am #939134thegraMember
talmud: thanks that is very interesting.March 18, 2013 9:03 am at 9:03 am #939135HaLeiViParticipant
The Sefer Hayashar brings that Edom was overrun by the Kittim and the nations mixed. Elifaz landed up ruling in Europe. He fought the Egyptians for harboring the Jews.March 18, 2013 8:36 pm at 8:36 pm #939136old manParticipant
Terms like Eisav, Amalek, Edom, Emori and others are simply euphemisms for evil or evil nations. The use of such terms is sociologically based and not historically based.March 18, 2013 9:44 pm at 9:44 pm #939137
old man- Are you suggesting that we have a Mitzvah to kill anyone who is concurrent socially with Amalek?March 18, 2013 10:03 pm at 10:03 pm #939138abra cadabraParticipant
old man is saying that when the Torah talks about Eisev the Torah isn’t talking about a historical person named Eisev but rather a euphemism for an evil person. According to old man Eisev never existed as a historical matter. old man gets these ideas from Biblical revisionists and secular historians who deny the Bible and/or attempt to reinterpret it to conform to modern historical beliefs.March 18, 2013 10:05 pm at 10:05 pm #939139Rav TuvParticipant
There isnt a mitzvah to kill Amalek until Moshiach comes and tells us who is Amalek. Since Sancheriv mixed the nations we can’t possibly know who is Amalek.March 18, 2013 10:18 pm at 10:18 pm #939140Sam2Participant
Talmud: That is the Shittah of several Rishonim and several contemporary Poskim.March 18, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #939141zahavasdadParticipant
old man- Are you suggesting that we have a Mitzvah to kill anyone who is concurrent socially with Amalek?
What would you call the Nazis?
There is no evidence whatsover they are AmalekMarch 19, 2013 12:40 am at 12:40 am #939142
Abra cadabra just set up the strawest man if I’ve ever seen one.March 19, 2013 12:51 am at 12:51 am #939143
The Midrash interestingly cites the myth of Romulus and Remus in a couple of places, for example in Bereishis 48:9.
http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/perekT.asp?sefer=1&perek=18March 19, 2013 1:09 am at 1:09 am #939144YehudahTzviParticipant
Herod was a Nabatean Arab.
Ency. Brit. has an odd definition: “Herod was born in southern Palestine; his father, Antipater, was an Edomite (an Arab from the region between the Dead Sea and the Gulf of Aqaba). Antipater was a man of great influence and wealth, who increased both by marrying the daughter of a noble from Petra (in southwestern Jordan), at that time the capital of the rising Nabataean kingdom. Thus Herod was, although a practicing Jew, of Arab origin on both sides.”
Don’t know how this could be. Edomites and Arabs are not the same.March 19, 2013 9:38 pm at 9:38 pm #939145
yitainingwut- This is so interesting if it is true! Which Medrash says this?March 19, 2013 11:38 pm at 11:38 pm #939146
talmud – http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/olam_hatanah/mefaresh.asp?book=1&perek=18&mefaresh=raba
Hit Ctrl+f and search “????? ????????”.March 20, 2013 4:01 pm at 4:01 pm #939147Charles ShortMember
Livy: the History of Early Rome translated by Aubrey de Selincourt mentions a marriage treaty between Aeneas and Latinus (p. 6) but I don’t see anything about Numitor of Alba Longa.March 20, 2013 7:08 pm at 7:08 pm #939148
yitayningwut- Thanks for the link. I see they are mentioned, but who says the story of them being brought up by a wolf is true? Is that also a Medrish?March 20, 2013 9:11 pm at 9:11 pm #939149danielaParticipant
The wolf tale is xian censorship.
A female wolf in Latin is called “lupa”. That has nothing to do with the lady who in the original story raised the twins. If this is unclear, please look up in your dictionary “lupanar”.March 20, 2013 10:04 pm at 10:04 pm #939150
talmud – Dunno. One thing is clear though, which is interesting, that the Midrash assumes the reader is already familiar with these characters.March 20, 2013 10:36 pm at 10:36 pm #939151
So we have found that Chazal have sanctioned Global History classes;)March 20, 2013 11:45 pm at 11:45 pm #939152
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