Russian invasion of the Ukraine

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  • #612361

    Do you support Russia’s attempt to reinstate the democratically elected government of the Ukraine that was violently overthrown in an unconstitutional coup d’etat by a band of anti-Semitic, fascist and nationalist gangsters that resorted to shooting their own people in Kiev and make it appear to have been a government shooting in order to rile up the mob against the elected President?

    Also, should Crimea be returned to Russia, which has for centuries been Russian land before it was unilaterally declared as “an anniversary gift”, without a referendum, to be part of Ukraine by former Ukrainian governor Nikita Khrushchev when he was the Soviet dictator, which at the time was nothing more than an administrative action? If a free and fair referendum (not today’s) were held in Crimea and the free will of its legal residents be determined they wish to either be a free and independent republic separated from the Ukraine or alternatively to join the Russian Federation, should not the will of the Crimean people’s desire for independence be honored no less than when Croatia declared independence from Yugoslavia (and recognized by Germany) and Kosovo declared independence from Serbia (and recognized by the U.S.)?

    #1008627

    akuperma
    Participant

    More a nibble than an invasion. By nibbling at the most pro-Russian pieces of Ukraine, it increases the liklihood the of the rest of Ukraine joining NATO and the EU. This will end up being good for Ukranian Jews (NATO/EU and more involvement with the west), but will hurt Russian Jews (Russia will be increasingly isolated). It will encourage the NATO countries and the US to stop the program of emasculating our armed forces, and while many Americans don’t want to be the world’s policeman, we more than almost other group have reason to want a strong friendly cop patrolling the beat.

    As we have had good relations with both sides, it is best for Jewish groups to be neutral and support a peaceful solution. Putin isn’t necessarily our enemy, and many Ukranian nationalists are exactly our friends.

    #1008628

    writersoul
    Member

    Wow, Mosh, what a clear and unbiased assessment of the situation! I love answering non-partisan, non-leading questions!

    #1008629

    akuperma: NATO doesn’t accept new members who are involved in a territorial dispute. So as long as Russia holds unto Crimea, with Ukraine claiming legal jurisdiction over Crimea, the Ukraine will be ineligible for NATO membership. Which of course is Putin’s goal as he initiated this entire scenario specifically to keep the Ukraine outside of NATO and the EU’s orbit.

    Putin accomplished the same result with his takeover of two areas in Georgia in 2006, thus immediately ending Georgia’s NATO ambitions which it had been pursuing until that point.

    #1008630

    akuperma
    Participant

    NATO is a small club that makes its own rules as it goes along. NATO already admitted the Baltic states (who have serious issues with Russian minorities), Poland, Romania and Bulgaria. Russia annexing pieces of a neighbor will make all the Europeans nervous. Unlike Georgia, Ukraine borders many NATO countries. Ukraine has many historic ties with western Europe, unlike Gerogia.

    Of course it depends on elections, but the Russians are hurting their cause by nibbling at the provinces with large Russian populations (thereby reducing the numbers of Russians in Ukraine), and alienating the rest of Ukraine. In Georgia the pro-western party lost an election. If that doesn’t happen in Ukraine, after the next election expect Ukraine to apply to join NATO and the EU.

    #1008631

    charliehall
    Participant

    “reinstate the democratically elected government of the Ukraine “

    It may have been democratically elected, but it certainly wasn’t democratic.

    #1008632

    akuperma: NATO will have no interest in accepting a member that is involved in a territorial dispute, or any dispute for that matter, with Russia. NATO isn’t looking to potentially set itself up to be involved in a military confrontation with a nuclear armed Russia.

    Additionally, if the Ukraine were to continue seeking NATO membership, there is a strong propensity to see that before such a membership became formalized Russia would invade the Ukraine’s eastern cities with large Russian populations, thus making NATO membership even more untenable.

    charliehall: In what way was it not democratic? The dispute was initiated when the then government signed an agreement with Russia rather than the EU. That decision was the elected Ukrainian government’s sovereign right to make even though it had both support and opposition among the populace. As far as the Maiden killings, there is a verified recording between EU foreign ministers discussing that the violence was initiated by radical factions in the Maiden opposition that was seeking an armed confrontation with the then government in order to win sympathy on the assumption many would make that the government initiated the violence.

    #1008633

    mdd
    Member

    All the violence during the protests after November 30 was started by the neo-Nazis. It was the government forces who shot at the attacking protesters who were the first to use firearms. The US government would have done the same.

    #1008634

    homer
    Member

    Mosh,

    While I wholeheartedly agree with writersoul, I must add this.

    Putin was, is, and always will be a KGB thug.

    #1008635

    homer: Putin indeed is a KGB thug. But the Neo-Nazis in Ukraine who seized power are far worse than him.

    #1008636

    akuperma
    Participant

    MoshbenDovid: A third of NATO are former members of the Warsaw Pact (or were former Soviet Republics). They are terrified of Putin. Letting Putin grab Ukraine points a dagger at the rest of them. Admitting Ukraine sends a message without starting a war. The Europeans remember 1938, and the lesson is clear that sending a strong message prevents wars — and showing fear to an expansionist simply encourages more expansion. Economically, building up NATO would be a good decision – Europe is afraid of deflation, and government spending would help prevent deflation, and would create new jobs to reduce their abusrdly high unemployment rate (which also means the cost is low since European welfare states pay very high unemployment benefits, which can be refocused as the beneficiaries get jobs).

    #1008637

    akuperma: I sincerely doubt the U.S. and NATO will be interested in setting themselves up to be treaty-bound in the future for an armed conflict with a nuclear Russia. Throughout the Cold War, even in the midst of the Cuban Missile Crisis, the first priority of both the U.S. and the U.S.S.R. was to avoid a war with each other.

    #1008638

    homer
    Member

    So we just let them retake all the old Soviet satellites, eh Mosh?

    Great thinking. . . Say are you a communist?

    #1008639

    Now, now, homer, resorting to asking me if I’m Communist is less accurate than if I asked you whether you’re a fascist for your support of the Neo-Nazi leaders of the Ukrainian coup de’tat that have advocated and implemented violence against Ukrainian Jews. These anti-Semitic parties, such as Svoboda, are now members of the new government that overthrew the democratically elected government using Jewish-beating gangsters such as Right Sector to initiate violence in Maiden.

    Let’s play nice. And let’s not forget that it was the Ukrainian population that worked hand-in-hand with the systematic Nazi murder of the Ukrainian Jews during the holocaust.

    #1008640

    homer
    Member

    Do you know the reason for the 2nd amendment?

    #1008641

    👑RebYidd23
    Participant

    no, I don’t remember which amendment is second. I only remember 5 and 13

    #1008642

    Epis
    Participant

    The vote was fixed. I spoke with some who has family in Ukraine, she said that world war three will break out from this conflict.

    #1008643

    mdd
    Member

    DovS1, the vote did not need to be fixed. The Crimean Russians wanted to reunite with Russia.

    #1008644

    Epis
    Participant

    mdd, this friend of mine said that no election in russia is won. An election is fixed. yes people vote, but it makes no difference, the one incharge of the government will fix the ballot to his wish.

    #1008645

    mdd
    Member

    That’s an exaggeration. Plus, in this case it is well-known that the majority wanted it. Even the Western media does not deny it.

    #1008646

    Epis
    Participant

    People. Prepare for Gog Umagog!

    #1008647

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Western media has absolutely no idea when it is being fed Russian propaganda and when it is staring at the truth.

    #1008648

    mdd
    Member

    HaLevi, the Western media is anti-Russian, and still they admit it. If it were possible to say otherwise, they would have.

    #1008649

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    They might be, and yet fall for their baloney.

    #1008650

    mdd
    Member

    HaLevi, please…!?! They have they own sources and people on the ground. They don’t eat out of the Russians’ hand.Don’t be stubborn. Maybe you want to argue about the draft law in Israel again?

    #1008651

    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    Actually, I did hear interviews from Crimean citizens and it wasn’t so clear cut. The Russians have been spreading the story about anti-Semitism, while the chief Rabbi refuted that. Nevertheless, the story picked up.

    I don’t have any stake in this thing, but having Russian soldiers not wearing Russian uniform doesn’t sound so straightforward. Putin is now ‘saving’ the Russians and the Jews. I’m not sure I trust the whole vote.

    #1008652

    mdd
    Member

    HaLevi, I recently donated money to the campaign started by the said Rabbi to hire more guards for the mosdos there. He has to speak differently in public. Daven for the Yidden. No time to explain the whole story.

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