July 31, 2013 10:34 pm at 10:34 pm #610221
In one day, we have three different accounts that put chareidim in a very bad light (bus, fountain, frum soldier accosted). If the chareidi leadership will not rein in these extemists, we will see more hatred towards chareidim and more measures by the general public, who feel that the chareidim are putting themselves “michutz lamachaneh”.August 1, 2013 6:47 pm at 6:47 pm #970036WIYMember
People need to have their own common sense. The Rabbonim are not hand holding nannies. I don’t blame a Rav every time someone does something stupid. Lets face it we have plenty of people that just dont have common sense and don’t do smart things, like leaving babies in cars and other forms of insanity. The Rabbanim have no obligation to make sure people have brains in their heads. Thats the peoples job to try and live smartly. If you went through Yeshiva and still have no middos and no common sense and no idea how to behave you probably spaced out through most of it and therefore anything a Rav says now will have little impact.August 1, 2013 7:37 pm at 7:37 pm #970037akupermaParticipant
Those ultra-secular extremists, such as Lapid, are really getting out of line. Publicly saying their goal is to bankrupty 10% of the population solely because he doesn’t approve of their religion. Trying to use the army to coerce them into giving up their religion, even though the generals who defend the country say they want no part of using their army to be a tool of religious coercion – especially as it would seriously weaken the army by undermining unit cohesion which has been shown to be a key factor in military operations.
If these extremists aren’t stopped, the end result will be that Israel will be put into a very awkward situation of having to explain to its supporters, not to mention hostile “neutrals”, why they are engaging in religious persecution in violation of international law, and how Israel can claim any rights as a “Jewish” state that most of the world believes was founded to protect the religious freedom of Jews, when religious Jews are the ones Israel persecutes.
If the extremists aren’t stopped, The zionist enterprise may be doomed. And at this point, it appears that only the Religious Zionists are in a position to stop these anti-Jewish extremists. And if not, this might be a very good time for those who wish stay in Eretz Yisrael to get Arabic lessons.August 1, 2013 7:56 pm at 7:56 pm #970038
akuperma, Shaychus? ROB is correctly pointing out that actions of certain Charaidim are putting all Charaidim in a bad light (what might be called “Chillul Charaidi”). Unless it is stopped externally, outsiders will treat the Charaidi group as no different than those who “support” suicide bombers.
That is still not something the Charaidi politic is ready for. Contrast that with Lapid, who is perfectly willing to be villified by the Charaidi on the street, and in fact revels in it.August 1, 2013 8:00 pm at 8:00 pm #970039WolfmanParticipant
A couple of years ago, by the RBS insanity, many chareidim were saying that there is no need to condemn the sikrikim, that these are a bunch of lunatics, that no one supports them, etc. Now that we are suffering the blow-back, we are wringing our hands about gezeiros, etc.
The CR bloggers can and will blame Hertzl, Ben Gurion, or whomever they want and rant about Zionist conspiracies. Some think that if they write twenty posts saying that Zionists are wrong, it constitutes a logical thought.
Bottom line, if we are nasty to others, it will come back to harm us. We need more Kiddush Hashem and less Chilul Hashem. It really is very simple.August 1, 2013 8:11 pm at 8:11 pm #970040
If these extremists aren’t stopped, the end result will be that Israel will be put into a very awkward situation of having to explain to its supporters, not to mention hostile “neutrals”, why they are engaging in religious persecution in violation of international law
Seriously? Europe would be more than happy to get rid of the “Ultra-Orthodox”, which they see as a cross of Muslim extremists & Settlers (See: Beitar, Kiryat Sefer and Ramot). The Charaidim have lost the battle for the minds of the Yeshivish Ba’al Ha’Batim in America. The Chassidim (Satmar) will not be able to help in Washington, and even if they could, they will not (They care more about the continuation of funding).
Help from outside is highly unlikely.August 1, 2013 8:23 pm at 8:23 pm #970041
apukerma: Do you even believe in what you write? or are you just a provocateur? every statement you make is outrageous in its scope such as “use the army to coerce then into giving up their religion” . And then you give aid and comfort to our enemies like “this might be a good time to study arabic”. Scandalous ,really,August 1, 2013 8:27 pm at 8:27 pm #970042nfgo3Member
Re WIY’s first comment: Rabbonim are not nannies, but they are important leaders of their communities, and it is incumbent upon them to make it clear – to the world Jewish population and to the secular Israeli public, as well as their own devoted followers – what they expect their followers to do or not do. Some Chareidim (like all other human beings) are nuts, and do crazy or hideous things (like throwing soiled diapers or assassinating a prime minister), and it is in the interest of the Rabbonim and the communities they lead and serve to draw bright lines between between themselves and the crazies.August 1, 2013 8:39 pm at 8:39 pm #970043akupermaParticipant
If you guys hate the hareidim so much, why do you want to give them guns and have them watch your back? It’s surprising that instead of drafting hareidim, you would want a law prohibiting them for bearing arms. You consider it a privilege to ignore the draft yourselves (note that most secular avoid the IDF, usually moving overseas if needed, which is where most hiloni Israeli citizens live).Just leave them alone in their own little ghettos to live their own lives unmolested.
All they want is to be left alone. They are going on to the Tel Aviv-Haifa bus and demanding that the hilonim dress modestly – they just want to run their own buses, their way, preferably without you hilonim meddling.August 1, 2013 9:01 pm at 9:01 pm #970044
ROB- your tactics and attitude are deplorable.August 1, 2013 9:19 pm at 9:19 pm #970045
Thank you rabbi of berlin. Your sincerity really oozes through and we can very much see that you care so much about the chareidi tzibur and how it is viewed.August 1, 2013 10:42 pm at 10:42 pm #970046squeakParticipant
Both sides are disingenuous. The chilonim wouldn’t allow the chareidim to live in peace even if they kept entirely to themselves, but the chareidim wouldn’t be satisfied to be left alone in their own ghettos either. They (chareidim) want access to societal benefits without particiating in that society. And they (chilonim) are desperate for approval and can’t stand the reminder of their failings as Jews.August 1, 2013 10:55 pm at 10:55 pm #970047
Toi- I don’t know about my tactics (?) but why is my attitude deplorable? I think that to accuse the army and government of “shmad”, “coercing to give up her religion” and other such risible comments is outrageous and a blatant false depiction of the facts. And to keep on asserting-like apukerma, health and others -that it would be better to be under Arab rule is truly shameful. Look around what happens to minorities in the Middle East, the Copts, the Bahai, the X-ians. They are treated well,aren’t they? Preposterous.This is out and out dangerous.August 2, 2013 6:45 am at 6:45 am #970048
what does the validity of akuperma’s opinion have to do with your right to continually attempt to villify an entire community base on the misdeeds of a few?August 2, 2013 12:31 pm at 12:31 pm #970049
Toi- if you are referring to my pointing out the extremism of some chareidim, so be it. Far from me to paint every cvhareidi with the same brush. On the contrary, I sympathize with many chareidim ,being one ,by the way! However, one has to logical and recognize that trhe other side has valid arguments too.August 2, 2013 1:43 pm at 1:43 pm #970050Avi KParticipant
If the rabbanim would try to rein them in they would have to hide. The Atra Kadisha hooligans stoned Rav Eliashiv when he reached a compromise with the government on alleged Jewish graves in Pisgat Zeev. Imagine what they would do to someone of lesser stature.August 2, 2013 2:44 pm at 2:44 pm #970051Veltz MeshugenerMember
PBA, your criticism is both inappropriate and incorrect. Supporters of charedim have no right to determine the validity of other people’s concern. But even if they did, it’s simply wrong to assume that the concern comes from some sort of unjustified dislike of charedim.
Nor is this “vilif[ication] of an entire community base [sic] on the misdeeds of a few.” The frum media universally misrepresents what the current government is asking for. The frum media is not “a few”, they are seen to speak for charedi leadership. There is also the often raised but never refuted argument that rabbonim are perfectly capable of standing up for things that bother them, and in fact do so all the time when people do things like ride bikes, get phones with text messaging, and open competing batei din. That no mainstream frum rav has seen fit to address any of the above infractions says something about where their concerns lie.August 2, 2013 3:56 pm at 3:56 pm #970052jbaldy22Member
The problem with akuperma’s post is very simple. It employs a “they are wrong so therefore we must be right” attitude which seems to be pretty commonplace (and disturbing to me). Besides for the fact that his point had absolutely no relevance at all to the op. As I have said before in this forum the problem isn’t that there are no public statements by rabbonim on specific situations – the problem is that there are never any comments at all on the situation at all. The only comment I have seen was from Rav Gershon Edelstein. I have yet to see a single poster here explain why or provide any semi- legitimate explanation.August 2, 2013 4:20 pm at 4:20 pm #970053
I have yet to see a single poster here explain why or provide any semi- legitimate explanation.
Rav Shteinman washed his hands of the whole business and has declared the only derech is to increase learning. He also is Rov in Beni Brak, and the “Chalmis” don’t follow him. It would be like asking the head Mormon to condemn the Catholic Church priest scandal.August 2, 2013 5:04 pm at 5:04 pm #970055
PBA, your criticism is both inappropriate and incorrect. Supporters of charedim have no right to determine the validity of other people’s concern. But even if they did, it’s simply wrong to assume that the concern comes from some sort of unjustified dislike of charedim.
We’ve got a long history here, this isn’t his first post on the issue. In the context, it is wrong to read this thread as anything other than an opportunity to “catch” chareidim in a wrongdoing.August 2, 2013 5:51 pm at 5:51 pm #970056
popabarabba- Actually, I was puzzled by your earlier posting but now, re-reading it,the light has come on! You accuse me of vilifying chareidim ,for the sole purpose of vilifying chareidim. Nothing is further from the truth. if you’d meet me, you’d call me a chareidi, if you’d meet my kids, you’d certainly call them chreidim, so your accusation does not hold water. I am not vlilifying a whole class of people. Even ,as far as the Zionist controversy, I respect the opposite view, even as I think they are totally wrong.I do object when I see offensive behavior (attacking a frum soldier, abusing women))and I certainly object if I see aggressive purpose in avoiding one’s responsibilities (army, working). Lastly, I will certainly push back when I see the gross misrepresentation (shmad,dragging people from their shtenders.etc)by people who have a dishonest purpose. I don’t vilify a whole calls-only people who are dishonest.August 2, 2013 6:15 pm at 6:15 pm #970057
I’m sorry you feel the need to dress like people who you only care to criticize.
Veltz: ROB is not in the same camp you are. Believe you me.August 2, 2013 6:26 pm at 6:26 pm #970058
Popa bar abba: I don’t even understand you comments. So, because i have different views on some subjects than some of chareidim, I csnnot dress in bigdei shabbos? So, Rav Kook zz’l should not have worn a “shtreimel” because he was a Zionist? So, The roshei yeshiva of Merkaz Harav should not wear the rabbinical dress because they encourage their talmidim to go to the army? your comments make no sense.
But, pray, do you approve of attacking a frum (or any) soldier? Do you approve of abusing women and treating them like third-class citizens? Do you approve of avoiding any responsibility of protectin jewish lives from their enemies? If you say yes to these questions, then we truly are in different camps!August 2, 2013 11:17 pm at 11:17 pm #970059
But, pray, do you approve of attacking a frum (or any) soldier? Do you approve of abusing women and treating them like third-class citizens? Do you approve of avoiding any responsibility of protectin jewish lives from their enemies? If you say yes to these questions, then we truly are in different camps!
2. No, but we disagree on what that is defined as.
3. No, but we disagree on what that is defined as.
So, we really are in different camps.August 3, 2013 7:06 pm at 7:06 pm #970060
Rob you said-“Toi- if you are referring to my pointing out the extremism of some chareidim, so be it. Far from me to paint every cvhareidi with the same brush. On the contrary, I sympathize with many chareidim ,being one ,by the way! However, one has to logical and recognize that trhe other side has valid arguments too.”
but before you said
“In one day, we have three different accounts that put chareidim in a very bad light (bus, fountain, frum soldier accosted). If the chareidi leadership will not rein in these extemists, we will see more hatred towards chareidim and more measures by the general public, who feel that the chareidim are putting themselves “michutz lamachaneh”.
So i think you are schizophrenic.August 4, 2013 2:02 am at 2:02 am #970061Jersey JewParticipant
Sure, call out the frum when the non frum need to be called out. Granted, the frum should be held to a higher standard but be honest too.August 4, 2013 2:41 am at 2:41 am #970062
shavua tov! a gute voch!
Toi: Happy to be called a schizophrebic- there must be many who are like me!
On a serious note, to all of those who criticized my posts: My views are well known here- they are closest to “chardal” (chareidim leumiyn dati-im) because I do believe in Zionism as propounded by Rav Kook zz’l and I believe in a fervent yiddishkeit. I respect all chareidim but I draw the line at extortion and bad behavior. What happened by assaulting a frum soldier is absolutely outrageous. What happened on the bus is also wrong. If you want to have women at the back of the bus,organize your own bus lines. Till then, buses are for everyone and no one should be forced to move to the back. As far as the fountain goes, would you like if chilonom come and make merry in your beth medrash?/ no! so, please respect other people’s important places.August 4, 2013 2:54 am at 2:54 am #970063charliehallParticipant
“Sure, call out the frum when the non frum need to be called out. Granted, the frum should be held to a higher standard but be honest too.”
Yup, good old double standard.
What “non-frum” has recently assaulted an IDF soldier?
What “non-frum” has recently harassed modestly-dressed frum elementary school girls?
What “non-frum” has recently vandalized a bus with people on it?
What “non-frum” hasAugust 4, 2013 3:29 am at 3:29 am #970064147Participant
Following this bus incident, and in honor of this 34th Johrzeit on Friday Ov 26th as reported on YWN, I made a special point this Shabbos of singing Shir haMa’alos to the wonderful tune of haTikva. The words of Psalm 126, fit so beautifully to the tune of haTikva.August 4, 2013 4:41 am at 4:41 am #970065ifti99Member
“All they want is to be left alone. They are going on to the Tel Aviv-Haifa bus and demanding that the hilonim dress modestly – they just want to run their own buses, their way, preferably without you hilonim meddling. “
Hmmm. Please explain how spitting on young girls in RBS, physically attacking hareidi soldiers and calling all MO Jews “amalek” is “wanting to be left alone”?August 4, 2013 7:41 am at 7:41 am #970067
ROB- you said”If you want to have women at the back of the bus,organize your own bus lines. Till then, buses are for everyone and no one should be forced to move to the back.”
thats an interesting point. an ironic one too. the the chareidim have repeatedly attempted to organize private companies so that these things wouldnt be an issue. what happened, you ask? what happenede was that because egged has a fat monopoly on anything to do with buses, they were able to ensure that the chareidi buses failed any inspections and couldnt recieve any certifications needed to operate. thereby forcing everyone to use egged. thereby ensuring a continuation of conflict.
you also said”As far as the fountain goes, would you like if chilonom come and make merry in your beth medrash?”
the comparison is ridiculous. of course i believe in respecting others’ feelings and not antagonizing another, but this fountain has no inherent kedusha, has no halachic status. the water and stones are nothing. whereas a beis medrash has many halachos that apply to it.
i do agree with the points about attacking frum soldiers and spitting on little girls, but it is important to recognize that the perpetrators of these acts are not chareidim, they are wackos. say i call them ‘super-chareidm’ will you leave us alone?August 4, 2013 1:52 pm at 1:52 pm #970068zahavasdadParticipant
Please tell me what the harm would be if all the gedolim would issue a Kol Korea stating that anyone who attacks an IDF soldier or spits on an 8 year old girl will be excommunicated from the community and their kids thrown out of Yeshiva and are forbidden from getting Aliyot.
Maybe the perps wont care, but the population at large would welcome such a statement. It might also scare future people from going on such a routeAugust 4, 2013 7:14 pm at 7:14 pm #970069
TOi- I thank you for your civil response! I was not aware of the political implications of the new bus lines. Nonetheless, I don’t believe there is any halachic reason to have women at the back of the buses. it is demeaning and not necessary. If you don’t want to sit next to a woman, that is your right. Sit in another seat,next to a man, or stand. To have women get up and move to the back is truly demeaning to women and I don’t believe that is meant by halacha.
As far as the fountain incident, of course it is not comparable to a beth medrash. However, that incident only highlights the insensitivity of the chareidim who were present to other people’s places. I think that we would all benefit from some sensitivity to other people’s needs- that includes chilonim being respectful to chareidim and vice-versa.August 4, 2013 8:10 pm at 8:10 pm #970070
ROB- Ligabei the bus thing being demeaning, i think its all about perception. if you come from a rosa parks-esque view of the back of the bus, the in hochi nami youll be offended. but its all about perception. these people have never heard of rosa parks, and quite possibly have never heard of segregation in america. they dont have the same associations as you. im not saying there is halachic validity to bidavka sitting the nushim in the back, but all those negative feelings you feel for the back of the bus were engendered by an american education. they dont have these notions at all.
honestly, the fountain is mamesh an isolated incident. two families out of hundreds of thousands of people. come on. thats like saying all chareidim are niturei karta.August 4, 2013 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #970071
TOI- I agree with you about the fountain incident. But you speak about perceptions- and ,very sadly, the chiloni press will always sensationalize anything any chareidi will do.So, we will have to be doubly careful.
As far as the bus fact, even in the US- on the “chassidsiche’ buses, women do NOT sit in the back. They sit side by side, men on one side, women in the other. To be sent to the back of the bus is insulting for anyone- like a child sent to the corner.it has no place in a civil society.August 4, 2013 9:56 pm at 9:56 pm #970072
ROB- biased journalism isnt journalism.
again, the bus thing is only because we were raised that way. the women dont feel that way. ay, you think they do? they still dont. they are not sent to the back, they sit in the back. and they dont view it a demeaning. civilty is vaiter something being dictated by those who decided it isnt civil.August 5, 2013 8:13 am at 8:13 am #970073
I view it as demeaning and I know many woman who do too. I would much prefer to do as they do in NY where they sit side by side with a curtain in between. I personally get claustrophobic the further back I am so I always like sitting as close to the front as I can. I understand that men may not want to sit NEXT TO a woman but if the issue is that he doesn’t want to see us then I believe it makes more sense to have the men enter in through the back, punch themselves in, and choose the back seats then to choose all the front seats and have the women need to walk through them to get to our seats. Of course if the women had the front seats, there’s not a chance that the seating would stay separate because somehow men would filter their way forward.August 5, 2013 3:27 pm at 3:27 pm #970074
interjection- sorry, where were you born and educated?August 5, 2013 4:10 pm at 4:10 pm #970075🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
I don’t find it demeaning, but I do think it would be better to have it vice-versa. Not because of “kavod” or “dignity”, rather something much more practical… People who are carsick are more carsick in the back of the bus than in the front of the bus. Take a pregnant woman and put her on the back of the bus, and she’ll be throwing up the whole time. When I was a student in Israel, I remember my teacher pointing this out. I wonder if the bus organizers ever thought of this…August 6, 2013 5:44 am at 5:44 am #970076
toi: very right yeshivish community and I went to a very right bais yaakov. Not sure why it makes a difference though…if someone’s offended it shouldn’t matter their background.
“Take a pregnant woman and put her on the back of the bus, and she’ll be throwing up the whole time.”
I was on the 402 during my first trimester and my husband had me sit with him in the front. I took the front window seat, directly behind the driver and no one made a fuss.August 6, 2013 8:38 am at 8:38 am #970077
interjection- in NY. that is my point.August 6, 2013 3:35 pm at 3:35 pm #970078
Toi- At the risk of being attacked as anti-chareidi, what makes you think that the custom that you propulgate= keeping Minhag Eretz Yisroel in buses- is correct? Did you ever think that it is just a manifestation of extreme mysoginy? I never heard that in old Europe, there were two sides to streets (men on one side, women on the other) or that women were treated like third class citizens. What halocho requires (mechitza in shuls and at some functions) you respect, but anywhere else ,it is just a system to keep women “in their place”.August 7, 2013 4:07 am at 4:07 am #970079jewishfeminist02Member
Some women find it demeaning, others don’t. A more objective point is that those who sit in the back are by definition the last ones off the bus (assuming a bus that is going to one destination, not one with multiple stops).August 7, 2013 6:06 am at 6:06 am #970080
jfem- not if there are three sets of doors. wrong.August 7, 2013 6:12 am at 6:12 am #970081
Toi- not ny nor Lakewood. Still not getting your point.
” What halocho requires (mechitza in shuls and at some functions) you respect, but anywhere else ,it is just a system to keep women “in their place”.”
That’s exactly how I feel. If you want to make up chumrahs let it be on your own cheshbon. Don’t punish me because you wanna be super holy.August 7, 2013 7:07 am at 7:07 am #970082jewishfeminist02Member
I don’t know what Eged buses look like these days. I do know that at least in the USA, a lot of buses are not using back and middle doors anymore because of the tremendous loss in revenue when people sneak on that way. Nevertheless, your point is well taken but bluntly put.August 7, 2013 12:19 pm at 12:19 pm #970083NechomahParticipant
I just want to make a couple of points:
1) 402 is NOT a bus that is mehadrin.
2) Intercity Egged buses in Yerushalayim have 3 and some even have 4 doors, all of which are regularly opened and closed at stops, on request from riders if the driver does not open the doors at the very back of the bus.
3) There is absolutely no connotation of “putting women in their place” by having us sit at the back of the buses. Intercity buses are not at all like the NY buses where the sits are the same on both sides of the bus except opposite the back door. Here, there are single seats on buses designed for handicapped access, some buses have more seats in the front than others meaning that many men would have to stand in the front of the bus. I live in an area where people attempted to make the new bus route be mehadrin, but due to the construction of the bus and the seating, there is some mixing, but people do try to sit separately if possible.
While I do think that men could and should take a little responsibility and avoid looking at places that they shouldn’t, people can only take responsibility for their own actions/thoughts, so I would still rather not cause someone to be nichshol and would rather sit at the back if necessary to prevent that.
Just as a side note, I was on a bus that comes from a newish chareidi neighborhood and goes through a chiloni neighborhood. The askonim in the chareidi neighborhood worked tirelessly for an extended period of time to get properly established bus route(s) to the chareidi neighborhood, which at the same time have benefitted the chiloni neighborhoods immensely. These same chilonim had been given buses by Egged for the last 30 years that ended up being packed like sardines every time one left the vicinity. There was one bus per hour for each of 3 major neighborhoods in this vicinity and each one was packed to the gills and had tremendously long, winding routes before reaching the destination. Now that the chareidim came, they put much pressure on Misrad HaTachburah to fulfill the previously determined plan to bring a new bus company to the area and they finally succeeded. They added an additional 3 bus lines and greatly increased the total number of buses traveling to and from each neighborhood in the vicinity throughout the day. The fact that the buses coming from the chareidi neighborhood are full testifies to the fact that there are many people without cars who rely on public transportation and would indicate a need for more buses, but definitely not fewer.
Now this chiloni lady who sat opposite me says to me that it’s “lo beseder” that all of the buses come from the chareidi neighborhood already full. She said (beshem someone else that I could not understand) that we should worry for our own selves. The thrust of her comment was that we should not be on the buses that are for their neighborhood because we take up the whole bus. I would have very happily told her that we should cancel the bus that she was on and she simply would have had to wait for another 20 minutes before a different bus would pass by her stop. Can anyone explain to me this logic? By the way, no one told her to sit at the back of the bus.August 7, 2013 1:35 pm at 1:35 pm #970084truthsharerMember
nechomah, if you’re worried, why not dress in a burqa? Furthermore, if you stay home, then men won’t see you at all and won’t have improper thoughts.August 7, 2013 2:22 pm at 2:22 pm #970085🐵 ⌨ GamanitParticipant
truthsharer- you’re mixing apples and oranges. This is not about improper thoughts. Men can see women on these busses no problem. In Israel buses tend to get very crowded, and it’s better not to have men and women mixed together in crowded situations. I think the men should be at the back of the bus though, instead of the women. That way a woman who’s nauseous doesn’t have to be the only woman among all the men.August 7, 2013 2:36 pm at 2:36 pm #970086
Gamanit; you have just hit upon the truth: If the men are so worried ,let THEM sit at the back and women at the front. But, of course, they won’t because the truth is that it IS a way of putting women in their place- at the end of the bus, like the blacks before emancipation!
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