Safek if counted during the day.

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  • #603137
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Someone asked me this question:

    She has a safek if she counted the correct day last friday. But, the safek happened during the day; that is, she forgot thursday night, and then counted on friday but maybe the incorrect day.

    It seems to me that she is out. Because now she only has a safek if she has the correct sfeik sfeika.

    If you forget to count at night and count during the day, then we say there is a safek if you are yotzei during the day, and even if you aren’t, we might pasken like the shitta that each day is separate.

    If you don’t know if you counted at all, then we say there is a safek if you counted, and even if you didn’t, we might pasken like the shita that you can make a bracha anyway.

    But she has both: She certainly didn’t count at night, so she relies on the safek that we might pasken the day works. But, she only has a safek if she counted during the day either! So she can’t say “safek I counted” because there are two tzdadim which say she didn’t count. (citation? I dunno.)

    (Also, women don’t make a bracha anyway (MB 489:3)–for exactly this reason–but she didn’t ask my opinion on that part.)

    I said I don’t know, and emailed my brother. But he didn’t respond yet, so I’m asking y’all.

    #871252
    Sam2
    Participant

    If it were up to me, I’d say she’s okay. The reason a S’fek S’feka works for S’fira is not because it’s an actual S’fek S’feka. If it was, then we wouldn’t be able to use it because we don’t say a S”S by making Brachos. Instead, the only reason we’re Machmir if you miss a whole day is to respect the Shittah of the Bahag, even though he’s a Da’as Yachid in this. However, since he’s a Da’as Yachid we let you continue to count with a Bracha whenever there is any second Tzad to say you can continue counting. (And I would certainly say that if she does the Eitzah mentioned in a few Rishonim (well, maybe it’s only mentioned in the Chinuch) on the next night to have said “Yesterday was X and today s X+1”, then without any doubt at all she’s okay.

    And about the women not counting, that depends on what the Minhag is where, especially because the reason given in the Mishnah B’rurah probably doesn’t apply to a lot of women nowadays.

    #871253
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Hmmm. That could be.

    As far as the minhag, the minhag is that women don’t make a bracha. I’m not aware of any other minhag, and a bunch of feminists deciding to change the minhag does not a minhag make.

    #871254
    Sam2
    Participant

    That meant to say “if she had done”. Obviously it’s too late for that now.

    #871255
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Yes. this is an interesting idea you are saying, I’ll look around some more and ask someone.

    #871256
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Sam: See shaarei teshuva 20

    #871257
    Bar Shattya
    Member

    If she was counting before even though she wasn’t supposed to, then she may as well continue even though she isn’t supposed to.

    Once the halacha is that women don’t count, why should it make a difference whether it is technically also a bracha l’vatala. Either way, you are doing something Hashem doesn’t want you to do.

    #871258
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I’m aware of that Sha’arei T’shuvah. I was always taught that we hold L’ma’aseh that a Kattan and a Ger count with a Bracha.

    (I recently saw a T’shuvah, though I forget where, about someone who was going to cross the date line and would miss a day, what he should do. I didn’t get to the end though, because someone asked me an actual Shaila while I was in the middle of it.)

    #871259
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Ok, so you think that proves that you don’t need a real sfeik sfeika?

    Yitaning: What do you tayna?

    #871260
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: That’s the way I’ve always learned it. I can’t say you’re wrong if you’re Machmir on this because there are Tzdadim L’hachmir, but the Tzdadim L’hakel are pretty overwhelming.

    And I see your point about feminists wanting to do something not making it a Minhag. But I feel like there were always some women who counted with a Bracha and that since the reason for the M”B’s Minhag doesn’t really apply to most women nowadays, it’s very hard to be Moche a woman who wants to do a Mitzvah (especially because of the strange Lashon in one Rishon-I think it might be the Rosh-that the Bracha of S’firah is actually part of the Mitzvah), and certainly one like S’firas Ha’omer where there’s nothing public and she’s not rubbing it in anyone’s face.

    #871261
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    It’s possible.

    Why do you say the reason doesn’t apply anymore? I always understood the difference that:

    A. Men daven with a minyan, so they count then.

    B. Men are chayav to make a bracha, so there is no choice and they need to make it. But women are not chayav to, so it is better if they don’t since they will probably miss a day.

    #871262
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    My mother and sisters count with a bracha. They are not feminists by any stretch of the imagination.

    I’ll think about the shaila over Shabbos.

    #871263
    oomis
    Participant

    Very interesting shailah. She knows she counted without a bracha by day, but maybe said the wrong number. It being so early on in the sefirah, I would tend to doubt that she did it correctly the next day, because she is not used to the counting. I would continue to count without a bracha if it were left up to me, but that is why we have a rov to ask shailos.

    #871264
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: The Mishnah B’rurah clearly states a two-part reason. The second, which for sure doesn’t apply today, is that women don’t know how to count in Hebrew (although I’m not sure why they couldn’t count in the vernacular). The first reason is that there is a Vada’us that they will mess up, (at least partially) aided by this fact that they don’t know how to count in Hebrew. We see many, many women nowadays who make it through (with calendars, etc.) and many are even more Makpid than the men to remind them to count (if they Davened Ma’ariv early and such). If a woman wants to listen to that M”B, she has that R’shus, but the reasons pretty clearly don’t apply to most women.

    #871265
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    His second reason is that they don’t understand hebrew, and thus don’t understand what they are counting. So you are correct that would not apply to women who do know hebrew. Yet, you will notice that although there were many women then who did know hebrew, he doesn’t say that they should make a bracha.

    His first reason is that they will probably miss a day. I don’t know why that would have changed. I think that most people mess up even now, and probably more women than men because they don’t go to maariv.

    My reasons were given to speculate why women who are going to mess up don’t say a bracha, while men who know that they mess up every year still make a bracha. That is not explicit there.

    #871266
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: There is no good reason to be Mechalek. I think, according to that, if a man knows he’ll mess up he shouldn’t count with a Bracha either. The Mishnah B’rurah just assumed that most men don’t mess up. Also, the number of women who knew Hebrew (or how to count) were very few and far between in that time. If I held like that Sha’arei T’shuvah we quoted above I would tell a man who knows he’ll mess up not to count with a B’racha.

    #871267
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Really? You think a man who usually messes up should not make a bracha? And no posek ever mentioned that?

    #871268
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: According to that Mishnah B’rurah for sure. Why would it be any different than the mass of Halachic literature on the guy who will be in surgery/crossing the dateline/other Onsin etc.? Those are the cases where the Posek talks about a guy who will for sure miss. An absentminded person who misses Minyan sometimes and has never made it through Sfira in his life would be the exact same.

    #871269
    haifagirl
    Participant

    Most women I know make a bracha. I do, too.

    #871270
    derszoger
    Member

    haifagirl: Why do you make a brocho?

    #871271
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    sam: Sorry, I don’t think your reasoning is halachicly sound.

    I think you can see a difference between someone who is crossing the dateline, and someone who simply forgets year after year.

    I think you can see that if the mishna berura says a halacha and offers to reasons, that even if one reason no longer is true that the halacha still stands.

    I think you can see that if the mishna berura says that all women should not make a bracha because they will probably miss a day, that it was intended to apply even to a woman who was going to be meticulous and set up reminders to make sure she didn’t miss a day.

    I don’t think what I am saying is chidushdik in any way. It is the pashut way we read halacha.

    This doesn’t mean there aren’t valid minhagim where women do make a bracha. Yitayningwut says in his family the women do make a bracha. And in those families, then of course the women should make a bracha.

    #871272
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: It doesn’t make sense. S’fira is a Minhag where the SH”A B’feirush says that women have accepted upon themselves to do. The M”B quotes a Mechudash’dik Shittah (from one of his more obscure sources; he doesn’t quote that SHU”T very often on other things) that combines two reasons to say women shouldn’t make a Brachah. Not having one of them apply should be enough for a woman to count with a Bracha. Here, where often times neither will apply, how can you tell someone they can’t make a Brachah?

    #871273
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    1. Explain how it is possibly relevant that the shitta he is quoting is from a source he rarely quotes.

    2. Explain where this method of psak comes from that if there are two reasons given, and one no longer applies to many people (mind you, it applies to plenty still), that we just change the halacha. Find me a source for this.

    Sam: You usually post very good stuff, and I respect your ability to learn.

    #871274
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I don’t quite know how to explain this (in detail). It’s just something that you see from each individual case. This is clearly a case where the Posek saw a problem. Namely, that women, even though the SH”A says they count, often mess up and end up having Chashash Brachos Levatalos. Because normative Halachah in this case says that women can count with a Brachah. We found a reason why they shouldn’t because there is a concern. However, it took a combination of two reasons to justify them not making a Brachah for that concern. (And this concern is irrelevant anyway according to the many Poskim who hold not like that Sha’arei T’shuvah.) When one of those reasons goes away, it stands to reason that (in this case, at least) she can count with a Brachah. Obscurity of the source doesn’t matter in learning it, but it does make it easier to go against in regards to Stimas Divrei Sha’ar Haposkim. It’s very, very tough to go against, say, a Magen Avraham’s or a Taz’s Chumra even if the rest of the Achronim are Mashma from Stimas Divreihim Lehakel. It’s easier to say that against less often-quoted sources.

    #871275
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    Something you see from each individual case?

    I don’t mean ter be rude, but you are hardly old enough or knowledgeable enough to be deciding on a case by case basis when a posek needed both reasons he says, and which sources you are able to ignore.

    #871276
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Of course not. I am self-aware enough to know what I know and there are very few cases where I am confident enough to argue on Poskim like that. I would almost never Pasken like this without running it by someone far more knowledgeable that myself to begin with. Here, I don’t have the burden of P’sak on me so I can learn how I think the Emes is without being scared of being wrong. I think my entire explanation here was Amittah Shel Torah. Would I be confident enough in that to Pasken like it if asked an actual Shaila? I can’t honestly say that until I’m asked L’ma’aseh, but this may be one of the very few (and honestly, there are very few) cases where I’m confident in what I know to Pasken like this. (Of course, I’m always more confident in my Shittos until I need to actually Pasken. Paskening is quite a scary thing, that’s for sure.)

    #871277
    haifagirl
    Participant

    haifagirl: Why do you make a brocho?

    Because my rav told me to.

    #871278
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: Did my explanation make sense? I hope you don’t think that I routinely argue on earlier Poskim and T’shuvos and such based on S’varos or my own understand of Rishonim. I mean, I do, but only in learning. Almost never in L’ma’aseh P’sak.

    #871279
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I was trying to figure out what my response was.

    You are correct that I got carried away, and that we are just talking in learning.

    Still, it does bother me. I think you’re being a bit too cavalier, and I wonder why.

    #871280
    derszoger
    Member

    Forgive me for saying this, but I’ve noticed Sam often takes issue with halachos or psaks that are less than egalitarian, and sometimes tries reinterpertating or adapting them for modern times.

    #871281
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: It could be because we’re working with a slightly different assumption coming in here. You are assuming that there is a real Safek B’rachos because it’s a Machlokes Rishonim and therefore we should be Machmir without additional support. I hold like Rav Schachter that the reason we’re Machmir on not counting with a Bracha anymore is to respect the Shittah of the Bahag. (Rav Schachter points out that there are several cases where the Bahag is a complete Da’as Yachid but we still are Choshesh for his opinion in the Shulchan Aruch. This is because the Bahag had his own Mesorah from the Savoraim and Amoraim so even though his Shittah is against our Shas and our P’sak, we still treat it with respect.) Since that’s the reason we’re Machmir here, any Tziruf of a another Shittah is enough to allow you to make a Bracha (which is part of the reason the P’sak I grew up with and was told that what is accepted by most is not like that Sha’arei T’shuvah above). Thus, this is a case where finding Kulos to allow one to make the Bracha is perfectly called for. Does that make sense? Does that explain why we’re coming at this from different angles?

    Ders: I don’t know what you mean by that. If you give a specific example I’ll try and explain what I hold though.

    #871283
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    I was talking more about the women making a bracha thing.

    #871284
    AviGold
    Participant

    Don’t know where Popa gets his list of minhagim from, but it is absolutely untrue that women do not count with a brachah. I know many who do, including my mother, my wife, and my daughter.

    The issue has nothing to do with feminism

    #871285
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: As was I. A woman not making a Bracha is just as based on the Bahag as a man who missed/will miss not making a Bracha is.

    #871286
    HaLeiVi
    Participant

    PBA, many people have a Mesora older than the MB. Even the Chafetz Chayim did some things different than what he wrote, due to his Mesora.

    #871287
    popa_bar_abba
    Participant

    PBA: As was I. A woman not making a Bracha is just as based on the Bahag as a man who missed/will miss not making a Bracha is.

    valid point. Yet, that wasn’t the argument you were making before. I think you should go back and read your posts. They seem a bit cavalier with the mishna berura’s psak. That’s all I’m saying.

    #871288
    Sam2
    Participant

    PBA: I understand what you’re saying. My point was that that attitude is called for here because of the circumstances where that P’sk came from in this case. (That’s what I meant by understanding each case-that in this case specifically there is a ton of wriggle room because of the background of the P’sak. I very clearly stated that I wasn’t doing that in general-only in very, very specific situations.)

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