July 19, 2009 6:10 am at 6:10 am #590051
Sara Richard, who in her own words, calls herself “a shadchan with many years of experience…” writes in a letter to the Yated, this week, that she sees changes in shidduch and dating patterns. She sees boys parents calling Shadchanim more than before and she’s please with that, and gives advice as follows:
1- To girls parents- let girls mature before they date …
2- To boys parents- look for mature girls …
3- Don’t look for brand name Yeshivahs and Seminaries….no bearing on quality of person…
4- Support should be undertaken by both sides in partnership…
Nice letter. Page 92 of this weeks Yated (Readers Write). What do you think?July 19, 2009 4:14 pm at 4:14 pm #651474
I’ll have to read the letter but here are a few thoughts based on your excerpts:
– How about letting the boys ripen a bit first?
– To girls’ parents: what are you looking for in boys?
– What if parents can’t support? Are we setting our kids up for big problems by not making sure they’re as resourceful as they can be?July 19, 2009 4:39 pm at 4:39 pm #651475
Anyone can write a letter to the editor. Doesn’t make it daas Torah.
That being said, I do think that allowing the girls to mature is not a bad idea. I don’t though think this should entail forcing them to wait before entering shidduchim, but rather teaching them to have realistic expectations in life rather than expecting marriage to be a luxurious paid for vacation.
As far as the support aspect is concerned, the dowry provided by the girls parents towards the Torah scholarship of the boy is appropriate depending on the individual shidduch in question.July 19, 2009 6:03 pm at 6:03 pm #651476
Anyone from Brooklyn has heard of the Shadchanit “Sara Richards”. She has years and years of experience. That being said we can be sure her words hold a lot of weight.
Regarding one point in letter I can speak from personal experience. I myself “ripened” before I got married (not by choice 😉 . The single years were that of tremendous growth, learning and maturing. Holding down 2 jobs taught me responsibility, loyalty and dependability.
Additionally, my husband has a friend going through some Shalom Bayis issues now, some of the stories he tells, insinuate not a lack of middos, but a basic lack of maturity.July 19, 2009 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #651477
Darchei Noam, what if parents can’t help? What if circumstances change? Our girls are prepared but what about our boys.July 19, 2009 6:49 pm at 6:49 pm #651479
“Additionally, my husband has a friend going through some Shalom Bayis issues now, some of the stories he tells, insinuate not a lack of middos, but a basic lack of maturity”
That is because of the fact that due to the nature of how our boys and girls are being taught idealized versions about marriage, they are often shocked when they are forced to cash a reality check. Not all parents can or necessarily want to support their children. many are willing to help out occasionally, but not as an expected entitlement. I am of the school that says that whatever a parent is willing to do for a child is a chessed, but it should not come to be expected as the child’s due. Kids need to learn to stand on their own two feet. We did.July 19, 2009 7:00 pm at 7:00 pm #651480
phyllis..you tok the words right off my keyboardJuly 19, 2009 7:20 pm at 7:20 pm #651481
We need mashgichim to work with parents from high school on chanoch l’naar al pi darko.
You have boys who go to bais medrash, then, when the olam goes go to Eretz Yisrael, then come back (and heaven help us, people are recommending arbitrary time tables, not when the boys are ready and have really got the learning they need to get) to start shidduchim. At what point does anyone sit down with their boys and tell them what they should expect to have to do once they’re on their own, assess their kochos, and do what it takes to get them ready? Three years after they’re married? To paraphrase Rav Hirsch, more than three years too late.July 19, 2009 11:41 pm at 11:41 pm #651482
tzippi, like I said earlier: “the dowry provided by the girls parents towards the Torah scholarship of the boy is appropriate depending on the individual shidduch in question.” You say you have boys and girls, and your girls are prepared; so you ask what about your boys. I suggest you prepare them. (I’m not sure why you prepared your girls but not your boys. Perhaps your girls are older?)
My point was that there is a problem out in the real world with many girls being unprepared. (I’m not applying this general principle to your [or any] girls specifically, just generally.) Too many girls have this imagination of marriage being a gilded life paved with gold and jewelry. It is imperative to educate our girls that this is mere fantasy. Life is not paved with a yellow (or gold) brick road. They must be prepared for the ups AND DOWNS that life throws them.July 20, 2009 12:28 am at 12:28 am #651483
Darchei Noam, not sure what you’re referring to, probably just that I have girls in the parsha, not boys yet.
And you talk about the particular shidduch. What if a parent says, at this point, when it comes to ALL shidduchim proposed, we can’t help out?July 20, 2009 1:10 am at 1:10 am #651484
DN, I believe allowing the girls AND the boys wait a bit longer versus the girl getting engaged right after sem or the boy right when he comes back from EY will DEFINITELY help the issue.
Personally, I was very happy when I finished reading her letter. I was very impressed with the change she’s seeing.July 20, 2009 2:37 am at 2:37 am #651485
Darchai Noam, and what about girls whose parents can’t afford a “dowery”? And what about these tough economic times when a parent may not be in a possition to keep giving as long as they thought they could?
If a boy wants to learn, he can learn even if he has to work. My father learns every day before work. My husband works 12 hours and still has a steady shiur. The roasted chicken isn’t floating into the window and onto the table of our idealistic youngsters. Boys have to know also that marrige isn’t only in-laws, parents and wife working so he could sit and learn.July 20, 2009 4:05 pm at 4:05 pm #651487
Like I said, it is not practical for all shidduchim.July 20, 2009 4:53 pm at 4:53 pm #651488
Azoi.is, I read Mrs. Richard’s letter. As far as your snip from point 2, she clearly talks about preparing boys to shoulder their responsibilities in life.
I do disagree with her last point, in which she mentions that parents care for their boys till then, why not a few more years. On one hand, I appreciate any efforts to alleviate the girls’ parents burden; OTOH, who’s to say that either side has the money? Many girls are working, paying for some of their expenses and floating their own student loans. While this may not be feasible for the boys, I honestly wonder how many parents can keep their boys afloat another 3, 5, 10 years, while still paying full or close to it tuition for their younger ones and fulfilling all their other obligations.July 20, 2009 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #651489
If both the boys and girls started off in life and marriage earlier, they would enter marriage with less of the meshugasim that many come into marriage with currently. (That also further delays their willingness to marry.)July 20, 2009 11:31 pm at 11:31 pm #651490
If both the boys and girls started off in life and marriage earlier, they would enter marriage with less of the meshugasim that many come into marriage with currently. (That also further delays their willingness to marry.)July 21, 2009 2:47 am at 2:47 am #651491
Darchei- that’s all fine and good so long as they are PREPARED to enter marriage earlier. I believe age is arbitrary. I got married at 20, and we’re doing just fine; I also know people who likewise got married at 20 and ended up divorced within months because they weren’t mature enough to handle the hard work that marriage entails. I also know people who married at 17-18 who are doing just fine, but I absolutely would not have been ready then, and probably would not have lasted long in a marriage at that time.
The same concept applies in the secular world- my secular college classmates expressed shock that I married so “young”, but that is because the typical American 20-year-old is nowhere near mature enough to be married, and it is because no one expects them to marry at that point. By us, 20 is a perfectly normal age at which to get married, and is even the expected age, hence, you find greater preparedness amongst frum 20-year-old women.
Unfortunately, less and less are truly ready. I don’t know why; maybe it’s coddling parents, seminary-induced idealism, infiltration of secular values into our communities, or something else entirely- take your pick. But too many women (and men) are marching to the chuppah woefully unprepared for life after sheva brachos. Instead of using arbitrary numbers to determine a person’s readiness for marriage, we should be looking at the individual and where they’re holding spiritually, emotionally, and responsibility-wise. If you want people to marry younger, you’ve got to do something to ensure (or at least encourage) all that to fall into place at a younger age.July 21, 2009 4:33 am at 4:33 am #651492
re: I honestly wonder how many parents can keep their boys afloat another 3, 5, 10 years, while still paying full or close to it tuition for their younger ones and fulfilling all their other obligations.
tzippi, not a problem, just take out a second/third/fourth mortgage, like girls’ parents have been doing. Do you have a choice, if you want your daughters/sons married? Oh, you don’t have a house? You daughters would have to marry working boys, and your sons will have to go to work, anyhow. Tragic.July 21, 2009 5:34 am at 5:34 am #651493
re: But too many women (and men) are marching to the chuppah woefully unprepared for life after sheva brachos.
Being that financial problems are a major cause of newlyweds’ disagreement, the girls who choose the Kollel lifestyle and grew up with the same, are able to adapt to married life much easier than those who grew up differently and choose the Kollel lifestyle, because of the urging of their Seminaries.
If you don’t grow up with it, sooner or later, the different lifestyle will be too hard to endure. Some make peace with it, some don’t.July 21, 2009 11:49 am at 11:49 am #651494
azoiis, were you tongue in cheek about multiple mortgages?!?! And the mechanchim and kollel people are supposed to do this too?
Are you part of the real world? Do you know how many mortgages people can (forget about should) realistically take out?
Please watch the advice you give. There’s this thing called lifnei iver, and with the accompanying hysteria, you’re treading on thin ice.July 21, 2009 11:50 am at 11:50 am #651495
P.S. We want to get our kids married, and KEEP them married.July 21, 2009 2:35 pm at 2:35 pm #651496
re:Please watch the advice you give. There’s this thing called lifnei iver, and with the accompanying hysteria, you’re treading on thin ice.
tzippi, Oy Gevalt- now I feel guilty. But truthfully, I’ve heard many have done just that. I’ve asked how so and so was able to marry off their daughters and commit to support, and this is what I was told (in more than one case) by their relatives that they did.July 21, 2009 3:55 pm at 3:55 pm #651497
Something else to consider as to “how they do it”:
I’ve read enough AM Amitz stories (note: still living la vida kollel even 20 years after leaving, read them from the library, friends’ back issues, splurges for yom tov) about the fathers in Israel having heart attacks over the apts. In the US the equivalent is the 5 ish year plan – 12k for 5 years. You may say it’s a metzia compared to apts, you can pay it out, but it’s the same problem of money one doesn’t have, or is diverting from other kids’ needs, or other obligations. It’s the grandparents’ retirement when the kids aren’t in the position to be helping them.
I have a friend who is one of several dozen grandchildren, each of whom pay in to a fund to support their elderly grandparents. Now that is beautiful. Not that supporting children in learning isn’t but…July 21, 2009 5:26 pm at 5:26 pm #651498
I think parents who could support easily should and parents who cant shouldn’t why should people put their parents in the position of supporting if they cant.
Taking loans or mortgages just puts their parents further in debt how could people do that to parents??
I dont understand why parents who are financially secure(but cant support a couple)would put themselves into major debt? I mean it’s one thing if the parents can do it then great but another thing if parents cant and by putting yourself into debt doesnt ease the situation! It just makes things worse in the long run!
– interast rates soaring,bad credit score….leading to more and more debt!July 21, 2009 5:36 pm at 5:36 pm #651499
Just because I could support, why SHOULD I?July 21, 2009 5:44 pm at 5:44 pm #651500
GAW, don’t you know that you aren’t supposed to enjoy any of the money you worked hard for? Instead, you should give it all to a generation that has little understanding of hard work and necessities…July 21, 2009 6:00 pm at 6:00 pm #651501
gavra_at_work – the money spent to support Limud Hatorah is probably the best money you can spend. If a young couple is starting off their marriage in Kollel, and the husband is really learning seriously, what greater z’chus can there be than helping such a couple?
There is nothing that’s more choshuv in the world than Limud Hatorah. If you are able to support true Limud Hatorah – why wouldn’t you want to???July 21, 2009 6:06 pm at 6:06 pm #651502
Wow people can totally misinterpret things! I was talking about parents who WANT to support their children in kollelJuly 21, 2009 6:38 pm at 6:38 pm #651503
SJSinNYC (& CKK):
Shitas Reish Lakish: All the money hashem gave me is for MY use, and none of it should go to my children. If someone should learn, it should be me. Don’t I need to learn?
But if you want to support your children (against Reish Lakish) and have the money to do so, why not? 🙂July 21, 2009 6:46 pm at 6:46 pm #651504
im not so sure you interpreted that Gemorrah broadly enough
and of course we dont paskin from Gemorrahs
he begrudged his daughter the vegetables, as i understand, because she didnt need them. had she been an ani he of course would have been glad he picked them before he died.
and if his sons needed money to go to learn, well he didnt say, but i can be pretty sure he would have been happy to support themJuly 21, 2009 7:05 pm at 7:05 pm #651505
feivel: ;-pJuly 21, 2009 7:45 pm at 7:45 pm #651506
im not sure what that smiley means
im guessing it means your last post was in fun and i took you seriously?July 21, 2009 9:39 pm at 9:39 pm #651507
Believe me, I would LOVE to support. I would also love to pay full tuition (and get our 30 year old roof replaced and a few other important house things).July 22, 2009 3:49 pm at 3:49 pm #651508
“and if his sons needed money to go learn, well he didnt [sic] say, but i can be pretty sure he would have been happy to support them”
Really? Why is that? Very interesting isogesis you have there.July 22, 2009 8:54 pm at 8:54 pm #651509
Because supporting Torah is comparable to Limud Torah.July 22, 2009 10:43 pm at 10:43 pm #651510
FTR, monetary solvency is not a given in today’s awful economy. A parent who has plenty of gelt today, could find himself with a failed business, collapsed portfolio, and debt galore, on a moment’s notice. Given that fact, and also given the fact that according to the Gemorah a man is REQUIRED al pi halacha to teach his son a trade, I think the best parenting includes helping a child when necessary AND possible, but also making that child earn his way at the same time.
My dad O”H woke up VERY early in the AM to learn, then go to Shul, then to school (when he was older,to work), then learned again at night after he came home. He contributed significantly to the family living expenses before he got married, and learned how to budget. His learning NEVER suffered, and he was a great talmid chochom (not only my words, but the words of all who knew him) who gave amazing shiurim. He could have and should have had smicha, but never felt the need for “the title” of rov. He did this while pursuing his secular degree and career, and became a healing professional who often gave free care to his patients (which is why we never had any money, LOL). I grew up valuing his hard work ethic AND his Torah knowledge. One does not prevent the other.July 23, 2009 12:15 am at 12:15 am #651511
there is nothing wrong with the girl supporting the faminly so the boy can learn for a few years! true, the woman has to raise kids- a women can do both! it is crazy that the girls do not want to work- the house’s foundation is the man’s torah.July 23, 2009 12:23 am at 12:23 am #651512
Notimportant, it is tragic that people feel that men can only have access to Torah when they work full time (see oomis’s most recent post). What happens when a woman can’t work (e.g. pregnancy complications), or needs to give more time to her family (and I’m talking about all the kids being wonderful and happy, forget about special needs or other circumstances)? Why aren’t we giving our young women permission to become an akeres habayis? Who are you people and what have you done with the traditional image of akeres habayis?
(And no one tell me about the women who helped out in the store until you very carefully read Zalman’s Menorah to see what real men had to deal with too.)
Reminds me of the old Enjoli perfume commercial (you are definitely too young to remember this) – I can bring home the bacon, fry it up in a pan, and never [let him go unappreciated], cause I’m a woman.July 23, 2009 12:31 am at 12:31 am #651513
I’ll throw in my 2 cents. I did not read the letter and can only comment on the points quoted here.
SR: 1- To girls parents- let girls mature before they date …
ME: This should also be to the girls. dont date until you are mature, not because some of your friends are already dating. Same should be said to the parents of boys as well as boys.
SR: 2- To boys parents- look for mature girls …
ME: Shouldnt the boys be looking for mature girls? They have to marry the girls, not his parents.
SR: 3- Don’t look for brand name Yeshivahs and Seminaries….no bearing on quality of person…
Same can be said of high schools, no bearing on the quality of education provided. Perhaps we wouldnt havean issue of girls not getting accepted into schools (wait, thats another “issue”).
SR: 4- Support should be undertaken by both sides in partnership…
ME: A comment on a partnership. Isnt it always undertaken by at least two sides? Is it possible to have a one sided partnership?July 23, 2009 1:27 am at 1:27 am #651514
Jphone, re your last point. The partnership is between the young man and woman. That parents help out is wonderful, but not an essential ingredient, and sometimes not conducive to the young couple’s shalom bayis. (Of course, neither are money problems, but still.)July 23, 2009 1:45 am at 1:45 am #651515
Tzippi. i dont disagree with your point about “the partnership”, but that does not seem to be what SR is talking about. She seems to be focusing on the parents. Are you saying that SR’s point is that the couple should agree on all forms of support?July 23, 2009 3:10 am at 3:10 am #651516
SR: 4- Support should be undertaken by both sides in partnership…
ME: A comment on a partnership. Isnt it always undertaken by at least two sides? Is it possible to have a one sided partnership?
AZOI.IS: SURE IT’S BEEN A PARTNERSHIP UNTIL NOW, THE GIRLS’ PARENTS GAVE 95% AND THE GUY AND HIS PARENTS TOOK AND DEMANDED MORE.
; )July 26, 2009 6:48 am at 6:48 am #651517
I think both singles and parents should be educated. If we are telling our children that marriage is a 50 – 50 proposition……a give and take, shouldn’t we, as parents play by the same rules?July 26, 2009 12:51 pm at 12:51 pm #651518
Savta_be, let me see if I got this straight. You are saying that if we teach our kids that marriage is a 50/50 proposition we parents should be splitting the support equally.
Leaving aside the impossibility of support for many parents, I disagree with the first half of the premise. We should NOT be teaching that marriage is fifty fifty, we should be teaching our kids to give 100%. Not to become doormats; we presume their spouses are menschen. But never to become scorekeepers.July 27, 2009 9:55 am at 9:55 am #651520
Tzippi, I agree with you all the way.
Kamayim Panim El Panim Kein Lev Hadam L’adam. If you create an atmosphere of giving and of I am there for you, the feeling will be mutual.
As far as support goes, obviously, there is no right or wrong, and there is no way to set a standard. Some have money and some dont!! (Isn’t that profound!) I dont even see what the arguement is…
As far as a girl being mature, AHHH you hit a raw nerve, I think this is very imp. point. In fact, I have a relative ( who has a lg. family by now) and got engaged in the beg of sem, she tells me she is happily married but she admits that the beg was very very hard bec she was so immature.
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